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      03-14-2011, 04:42 AM   #45
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You appear to be assuming that nobody here might be an expert on anything. While not wishing to "wave it about", I, for example, hold an Masters in Electrical & Information Sciences Engineering from Cambridge, and I can speak with more authority on engineering matters than most journalists. I can also tell you that almost everything I have read in the various print and online media in my sphere of expertise is either misunderstood or downright wrong.

Now, I do not wish to be guilty of assumption here - pray, what your ARE qualifications?
Again: arrogance. Are you not even a little bit embarrassed to exhibit such childish behaviour? Wow! You went to Cambridge. I know we're all impressed. Do you really want to play ‘My Degree’s Bigger Than Yours’? There will always be somebody with a bigger dick, you know! What if I told you that I had a Masters from Oxford, plus a Ph.D. from Harvard, and that my papers on seismology have been presented at the United Nations, would that make any difference to you?

As it happens, I am indeed a graduate, and do hold a degree in a Scientific subject. Doesn’t make me an ‘expert’, any more than your degree makes you one. If there is one salutary lesson to be had from the University experience, it’s that you don’t have to be intelligent to go to University. Another useful one is this: it's possible to be highly intelligent yet also be an idiot.

Meanwhile, here's a report from Channel 4 yesterday, on the current status of these 'acceptable risks':

"We have watched the highly efficient search for the dead. Beyond the remarkable survival of the man found floating on his roof, 10 miles out to sea, few people have been pulled alive from all this.

But it is the nuclear threat that is paramount. The authorities are engaged in a desperate battle to prevent another explosion, after the roof of a building blew off at a Fukushima nuclear plant on Saturday. A second reactor at Fukushima appears to be in meltdown, a second plant in the same region is also in trouble, and yet another nuclear station is facing exactly the same problem with cooling system failure. The authorities are pumping sea water in to cool the reactors, and fortunately the wind is in a good direction, but the Japanese Government is already being accused of downplaying the scale of what is happening."

Cheers
FM

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      03-14-2011, 05:14 AM   #46
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2000 people washed up on the shore line.

They rekon it could end up being 10,000 dead.

So sad.
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      03-14-2011, 05:19 AM   #47
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I have a degree in Materials Engineering (Swansea 1997). I can tell you all with great authority that my table is made of wood and my cup is made of ceramic.

Impressive huh?

This quake is unbelievable - my jaw has dropped every time I've seen more footage.
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      03-14-2011, 05:32 AM   #48
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      03-14-2011, 05:33 AM   #49
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Within living memory some very clever scientists thought that they were doing the right thing when they invented asbestos. Do we know what the asbestos of the future will be? Could history repeat itself?

Within living memory some very clever scientists thought that they were doing the right thing when they developed rocket technologies which enabled Hitler to rain bombs down upon London. But many scientists will tell you, ah, that is politics, we merely provide the technologies - it's not our fault what people use them for. You might call it "the Werner von Braun defence".
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      03-14-2011, 06:07 AM   #50
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Some more of those 'acceptable' risks panning out:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12729138
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      03-14-2011, 07:56 AM   #51
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Again: arrogance.
No, confidence.

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Originally Posted by FieldingMellish View Post
Are you not even a little bit embarrassed to exhibit such childish behaviour? Wow! You went to Cambridge. I know we're all impressed.
I don't care whether you or anyone else is impressed or not, and said as much. You are the one acting like no-one commenting might possibly know anything about the subject.

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What if I told you that I had a Masters from Oxford, plus a Ph.D. from Harvard, and that my papers on seismology have been presented at the United Nations, would that make any difference to you?
Well, yes - I'd certainly be more likely to listen to anything you had to say on earthquakes.

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Doesn’t make me an ‘expert’, any more than your degree makes you one. ...
No, indeed, the 20 years professional experience and contacts is what makes me an expert, at least in one or two fields.

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Meanwhile, here's a report from Channel 4 yesterday, on the current status of these 'acceptable risks':

" ... But it is the nuclear threat that is paramount. The authorities are engaged in a desperate battle to prevent another explosion, after the roof of a building blew off at a Fukushima nuclear plant on Saturday."
Oh, go and do some real research rather than parroting the meeja. Here's a free starter from the DOE's Office of Scientific and Technical Information.
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      03-14-2011, 08:05 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by FieldingMellish View Post
Within living memory some very clever scientists thought that they were doing the right thing when they developed rocket technologies which enabled Hitler to rain bombs down upon London. But many scientists will tell you, ah, that is politics, we merely provide the technologies - it's not our fault what people use them for. You might call it "the Werner von Braun defence".
Oh, and invoking Godwin's Rule won't get you anywhere, either
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      03-14-2011, 08:24 AM   #53
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These explosions we are seeing, while dramatic and making good TV news for the anchor men/ladies, are not the reactors exploding. And any radioactivity released in this steam is very limited and finite.

I am only now seeing some very good, clear reporting/explanation of the mechanics/events in the present situation. The latest BBC reports with good clear graphics have started to inform rather than speculate. I do think it is very important that the normal layman can be informed of the actual scenario and facts in a clear and accessable manner - this helps counter any (dis-)information supplied by those with any poilitcal agendas or vested interests.

I have over 20 years experience working directly in this industry - very closely with the Japanese having spent months at a time with the lads on site througout Japan.

Not arrogance or being a "know it all".

D.
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      03-14-2011, 08:25 AM   #54
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No, confidence.



I don't care whether you or anyone else is impressed or not, and said as much. You are the one acting like no-one commenting might possibly know anything about the subject.



Well, yes - I'd certainly be more likely to listen to anything you had to say on earthquakes.



No, indeed, the 20 years professional experience and contacts is what makes me an expert, at least in one or two fields.



Oh, go and do some real research rather than parroting the meeja. Here's a free starter from the DOE's Office of Scientific and Technical Information.

Oh, bollocks. You tried swinging your big fancy degree around and it didn't get you anywhere. Now you're trying to impress us with your years of expertise-generating work. Oh, and your 'contacts'. None of that matters. I'm not claiming to have done any 'research', I'm just arguing against the claim that 'the media' are just scaremongering because it suits their lefty agenda. In case you hadn't noticed, there's a tragedy unfolding in Japan, and a nuclear incident is ongoing.
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      03-14-2011, 08:35 AM   #55
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No, confidence.
How can you be sure that you can tell the difference?
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      03-14-2011, 08:40 AM   #56
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Shadow and Mellish sitting in a tree....kissing...
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      03-14-2011, 08:40 AM   #57
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I have over 20 years experience working directly in this industry - very closely with the Japanese having spent months at a time with the lads on site througout Japan.
That's great. But those 20 years of experience do not stand you in better stead than me to discern whether 'the media' are just trying to scare me. That's all I'm saying.

I'm sick of hearing self-appointed 'experts' wringing their hands over the ignorant 'layman' and his propensity for having the wool pulled over his eyes by the nasty, agenda-serving, tree-hugging media.

NB. you told me that the Japanese do not build nuclear power stations on fault lines (not that I claimed they did). But isn't Japan, to all intents an purposes, one big fault line?
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      03-14-2011, 08:56 AM   #58
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That's great. But those 20 years of experience do not stand you in better stead than me to discern whether 'the media' are just trying to scare me. That's all I'm saying.

I'm sick of hearing self-appointed 'experts' wringing their hands over the ignorant 'layman' and his propensity for having the wool pulled over his eyes by the nasty, agenda-serving, tree-hugging media.

NB. you told me that the Japanese do not build nuclear power stations on fault lines (not that I claimed they did). But isn't Japan, to all intents an purposes, one big fault line?

Are you still here? I am sure you said in one of your earlier posts that you were taking your leave of this thread? Did you edit it out?

I am all for a balanced debate, and I know that there are always contrary views and opinions to my own. I also know that I am not always entirely correct and that I may not articulate my opinions and choose my words carefully. However, the manner and style in which you respond to the points made in this thread, by most contributors, is bordering on the obnoxious and says much about you FM.


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In case you hadn't noticed, there's a tragedy unfolding in Japan, and a nuclear incident is ongoing.
You also insinuate that the contributors have no symapthy and emotion towards the plight of the Japanese people involved, in that, you are very wrong.
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      03-14-2011, 08:58 AM   #59
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So many words written about who is the "rightest" with spurious references to intellect.

Oh dear...
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      03-14-2011, 09:00 AM   #60
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Stuff and lots of it!
We've been here before Fielding, last time it ended in tears before bedtime.

I'd take a pill and chill, or better still read the Daily Mail, you know it makes sense

On a more serious note, the human tragedy that occured and is still being revealed is mind blowing beyond belief, and demonstrates so well how utterly powerless man is in controlling the elements.
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      03-14-2011, 09:07 AM   #61
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I was just watching Sky News, and on the news ticker, it said that upto 10,000 might have died in Minamisanriku alone!

Absolutely shocking
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      03-14-2011, 09:10 AM   #62
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Are you still here? I am sure you said in one of your earlier posts that you were taking your leave of this thread? Did you edit it out?
Yes I did, because I couldn't help myself. I know I should just bugger off and read The Guardian or something, but I seem to like upsetting myself.


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I am all for a balanced debate, and I know that there are always contrary views and opinions to my own. I also know that I am not always entirely correct and that I may not articulate my opinions and choose my words carefully.
I agree. In fact that is what really sticks in my throat, i.e. other people's inability to see any side but their own, or to accord people a reasonable amount of respect. And I cannot stand arrogance, I don't like people who make disparaging references to "the general public", implying that most people are mindless drones, ripe for manipulation by the evil, Liberal-dominated media, whereas they - with their degrees and experience - know better.


I don't have any special knowledge of the nuclear industry, either here or in Japan. But I do know a lot about the workings of the media, and the disparity -between reality and the almost lunatic perspective often found on this forum and this particular thread - is enormous.



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However, the manner and style in which you respond to the points made in this thread, by most contributors, is bordering on the obnoxious and says much about you FM.
I would say the same about people who are dogmatic and exhibit arrogance and disdain for 'the layman'. I may not know very much about the nuclear industry, but I know when I am being talked down to, and that people who do talk down to others are assholes.


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You also insinuate that the contributors have no symapthy and emotion towards the plight of the Japanese people involved, in that, you are very wrong.

No, I made no such insinuation. I honestly intended no such thing. This thread was started by someone who obviously had the plight of the Japanese in mind.

I just meant that it's maybe a tad premature for our resident 'experts' to be telling us all is well when the thing is still going on. Even if you are a bona fide expert in this field, the situation is ongoing and complex, and I think it's a bit early to be sounding the 'all clear'. I think the urge to do so demonstrates that you are working to just as much of an 'agenda' as you suspect 'the media' of pursuing.
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      03-14-2011, 09:12 AM   #63
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We've been here before Fielding, last time it ended in tears before bedtime.

I'd take a pill and chill, or better still read the Daily Mail, you know it makes sense

On a more serious note, the human tragedy that occured and is still being revealed is mind blowing beyond belief, and demonstrates so well how utterly powerless man is in controlling the elements.
Aye, you're probably right. Note to self: do not discuss religion or politics. Shit, my Granny told me that about 40 years ago. Why didn't I listen?

Can't take any pills at present, but will attempt to chill.......

And yes of course, the human tragedy is unbelievably shocking, and the scale is too much to take in, unimaginable suffering.
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      03-14-2011, 09:42 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FieldingMellish View Post
That's great. But those 20 years of experience do not stand you in better stead than me to discern whether 'the media' are just trying to scare me. That's all I'm saying.
On the contrary, my experience and understanding on a subject means I can tell when the media get it wrong (and I mean wrong). By default the media sway to the dramatic. That is different from saying that there is some underlying, insidious conspiracy to scare you.

You also have to bear in mind that the media reporter is also a layman in these issues - do you seriously take everything he takes as gospel when he may only have a limited grasp on the technical situation ?

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Originally Posted by FieldingMellish View Post
I'm sick of hearing self-appointed 'experts' wringing their hands over the ignorant 'layman' and his propensity for having the wool pulled over his eyes by the nasty, agenda-serving, tree-hugging media.
As I stated above, the dis-information whether intentional or not that comes from the media (swaying to the dramatic) has no real agenda other than to engage viewers, and a natural and understanable emphasis for sensationalism. BUT is is often used by politically motivated parties to persue their emotive goals. Purely praying on peoples' fears.

Giving the layman clear, accessable facts will limit the effects of those who wish to colour the issue. Give people the chance to make objective decisions.

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NB. you told me that the Japanese do not build nuclear power stations on fault lines (not that I claimed they did). But isn't Japan, to all intents an purposes, one big fault line?
It is a seismically active region. But the choice of nuclear sites, while being affected by monetary and logistical concerns, is not decided "willy-nilly". I have seen many studies that look into the effects of seismic issues.

What has happened in Japan is probably the worst case scenario you could expect and while the cooling systems were badly damaged the reactor buildings and cores seemed to have remained intact.

I would wait until we get a final outcome before decrying the safety and risk of using nuclear power. Countless people have been killed in this event or made homeless. Many of the oil refineries are burning out of control. Pollution and contamination from many other sources will have been released. To date, the public's health has not been affected by the events at the nuclear plants.

D.
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      03-14-2011, 11:00 AM   #65
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On the contrary, my experience and understanding on a subject means I can tell when the media get it wrong (and I mean wrong).
Agreed. As I already said, this can often be the case. reading a newspaper report on a subject which you have some specialist knowledge of can often be an exasperating experience. I know that.


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By default the media sway to the dramatic. That is different from saying that there is some underlying, insidious conspiracy to scare you.
Well, sometimes they do, particularly in the United States. But no swaying is required when the roof of a nuclear plant blows off! That's dramatic enough already.

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You also have to bear in mind that the media reporter is also a layman in these issues
Not always, and many news organisations such as the BBC and The Guardian, in cases like these, tend to rely on (a) experienced, knowledgeable journalists, and/or (b) outside experts brought in specially to comment.

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do you seriously take everything he takes as gospel when he may only have a limited grasp on the technical situation ?
No, but neither do I automatically believe any self-appointed 'expert' on a forum.

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Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
As I stated above, the dis-information whether intentional or not that comes from the media (swaying to the dramatic) has no real agenda other than to engage viewers, and a natural and understanable emphasis for sensationalism.
Again I say: no sensationalism required here.

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Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
BUT is is often used by politically motivated parties to persue their emotive goals. Purely praying on peoples' fears.
Yes but surely this does not apply to the BBC, for example?

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Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
Giving the layman clear, accessable facts will limit the effects of those who wish to colour the issue. Give people the chance to make objective decisions.
To be fair, it seems to me that you have an agenda, or at least a strong pro-nuclear bias.

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It is a seismically active region.
You can say that again.


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I would wait until we get a final outcome before decrying the safety and risk of using nuclear power.....
Agreed. But you seem(ed) to be doing the opposite, i.e. not waiting for the final outcome before declaring that this is not as bad as the media are making out, etc. And of course, who is to say when the 'final outcome' has been arrived at? That could take years.

Bottom line: this incident, irrespective of any media sensationalism, plays to people's fears about nuclear power, the main one being a suspicion that man cannot control events which may impact nuclear power stations to a catastrophic extent. We may say they are safe etc. but events like this give us pause. To think along these lines does not make one stupid or a media dupe or a rabid anti-nuclear zealot or anything like that - it's an entirely natural caution.
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      03-14-2011, 11:49 AM   #66
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To date, the public's health has not been affected by the events at the nuclear plants.

D.
Come on, even if this is technically true now (and you discount the people who worked at the plant as members of 'the public'), how likely is it that this will be the eventual outcome?
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