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      03-16-2011, 04:21 AM   #45
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ER good insight into your racing experience. I have seen data that agrees with everything you just said and that is the BMW brake ducts are useless. Maybe if I have some time I can do some scientific testing with and without the ducts.
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      03-16-2011, 05:28 AM   #46
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Dont get me wrong I like the set up, but just starting to think its a bit overkill running to massive oilcoolers in serie shouldnt the "hardware" (bigger diameter oillines larger-fasterrunning pump) be modded to suit the massive cooling potential fom 2 large OC.

Im planing to upgrade my cooling system as well cause Im not able to do prolonged highspeed cruising on the German autobahn and I do some trackdays also.

I have thought about a larger Oc inplace of the stock one, and then an additional Watercooler in the left wheel faring from the performance kit, so maby Er you could tell me from experience if the stock watercooling is adequate and that Im much better of with 2 OC?
Could you post up a couble extra pics of you cooling duct olso from the front of the car, thx
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      03-16-2011, 06:53 AM   #47
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Bear in mind that ER has two oil cooler designs available. What you are seeing is the dual option intended for people who are going to heavily track their car. http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/?q=node/133

There is a second option that just uses a single cooler in the passenger side duct. http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/?q=node/132

So yes the dual cooler is probably overkill for a street driven car. But not overkill in the context of a regularly tracked car. Actually maybe it is overkill there too but I think that is the point. Which is why they don't see high oil temps when beating the heck out of their car lap after lap.
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      03-16-2011, 02:43 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aridk View Post
Dont get me wrong I like the set up, but just starting to think its a bit overkill running to massive oilcoolers in serie shouldnt the "hardware" (bigger diameter oillines larger-fasterrunning pump) be modded to suit the massive cooling potential fom 2 large OC.

Im planing to upgrade my cooling system as well cause Im not able to do prolonged highspeed cruising on the German autobahn and I do some trackdays also.

I have thought about a larger Oc inplace of the stock one, and then an additional Watercooler in the left wheel faring from the performance kit, so maby Er you could tell me from experience if the stock watercooling is adequate and that Im much better of with 2 OC?
Could you post up a couble extra pics of you cooling duct olso from the front of the car, thx
I'll post up pics of the front more when I do get the air ducts. At the moment they are not done yet so im waiting on ER. Additional ducting will def help increase the efficiency of the oil coolers so I will take data on a trackday before and after as well.

I really do hope these are overkill on the track but I wont be able to find out until i get out there in 100F this summer . My goal is to be able to run 15psi on the track. With just the oem oil cooler, I was overheating running stock psi (8-10psi) while short shifting in 70F weather...
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      03-16-2011, 03:03 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
I'll post up pics of the front more when I do get the air ducts. At the moment they are not done yet so im waiting on ER. Additional ducting will def help increase the efficiency of the oil coolers so I will take data on a trackday before and after as well.

I really do hope these are overkill on the track but I wont be able to find out until i get out there in 100F this summer . My goal is to be able to run 15psi on the track. With just the oem oil cooler, I was overheating running stock psi (8-10psi) while short shifting in 70F weather...
Thx Ill stay tuned. With those brakes you look like youre ready for some serious tracktime, are you planning on running some brake cooling ducts simillar to what Er is doing?
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      03-16-2011, 03:24 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aridk View Post
Thx Ill stay tuned. With those brakes you look like youre ready for some serious tracktime, are you planning on running some brake cooling ducts simillar to what Er is doing?
probably not. I dont think i even come close to fading . I run motul 600 and the stoptech street pads. If i need to, i can still change to some track pads.
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      03-16-2011, 03:31 PM   #51
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      03-16-2011, 05:37 PM   #52
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Having the oilcoolers kick in earlier does not lessen the opportunity of temps exceeding 250+. If youre in a situation where youre producing more heat that you can remove from the system, it doesnt matter if u start removing heat earlier, you will overheat...
I agree to disagree when the oil cooler is inefficient from the get-go. Eventually they may exceed 250+ but if its started cooling at 200 degrees it has plenty of time to keep those temps at bay. If it started to cool at 240 where it normally opens it only has 10 more degrees before it exceeds 250. It's a lot easier to keep something cool if its already cooler then battle trying to keep them at bay when they are already pushed to the limit.

Like I said I'll agree to disagree, oil viscosity is rated at 215... enough said. Find me another platform that agrees 240-250 oil temps are OK.

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Originally Posted by shifterboy45 View Post
looking at the excerpts form the article -- looks like youre on target --

shoddy pads -- non-premium brake fluid are contributors -- he states that you should have these things --

but for a moment (yeah i know its semantics) -- look at the last line of the paragraph... "and be sure to install brake-cooling ducts."

lots of folks in the past have given little thought to brake cooling, especially when modding. go fast cars need stop fast brakes-- i truly understand the need to keep the engine cool and running well, it would be ideal if aftermarket vendors took all the factors in hand while producing new components (specifically speed parts).

remember the old brake dust covers for the rotors/pads = 'cause everyone tires of cleaning their wheels --- those were banned for use by BMW and if someone saw fit to use them and expect the car to perform the same way it was intitially designed -- there were in for a rude awakening.

tracking a totally stock car can overwhelm the brakes -- just think when you add another 50-75-100hp ... neat fat tires will look hot, but not being to reign the car in with the binders (rotors red hot and pads glazed like a Winchell donut) at 85mph and heading for a decreasing radius sweeper can be a little touchy !!
Its amazing what people ot do their cars without realizing the other negative potentials.
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      04-05-2011, 07:05 PM   #53
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great weekend at buttonwillow . Ambient temps 70F, sunny all day. The oil coolers worked rock solid. Only power mods on the car are the AR catless DPs + HFC AE exhaust and running 12psi using latest procede 3-30 DIC maps. intake and FMIC are oem. There are custom shroud ducting for my car to make this kit even more effective but for this trackday I dont have them yet.

Here is a 20min session log:
Name:  BW 4-3.png
Views: 637
Size:  110.4 KB

The highest temps were 258F but overall rock solid at about 250-255F. The heater was on full blast at 84F. I wasnt short shifting. This is a 2.7-2.8mi course with tons of turns. Someday in the summer ill try and raise the boost some more but for now this looks like a great solution. Once I get proper air ducting i expect this kit to be even more effective at removing heat from the system.

Ill be aiming for laguna on 4/19 and hope i can take some more data on oil temps there.

Finally, there were 0 problems with my brakes and no noticeable changes.
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      04-05-2011, 07:15 PM   #54
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oh and a pic from the day - not bad without foglights right ?

Name:  front bw.png
Views: 634
Size:  382.4 KB
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      04-05-2011, 07:32 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
The highest temps were 258F but overall rock solid at about 250-255F. The heater was on full blast at 84F. I wasnt short shifting. This is a 2.7-2.8mi course with tons of turns.
Believe it or not, this is 50% of the reason why your oil temps were low. I've been preaching this since I got my ar design oil cooler retrofitted. Without the heater on, the oil temps will keep rising till 280 degrees, albeit slightly slower than without a cooler. But running the heater in a car that is oil cooler equipped= dynamite. Next time, try dumping in water wetter, or some other coolant additive. That will also help lower temps.
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      04-05-2011, 09:52 PM   #56
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actually, ive never ran on the track without the heater not on at full blast. believe it or not, driving like the way i did this weekend, i would shoot temps to 290 in 2 laps with an fmic and cai with the same/less boost. to run the entire session as hard as i could and see stable temps... well thats gota be a crapload more cooling.

honestly, i think running the heater helps lower coolant temps more and maybe has a 10% effect on the oil temps to be realistic.
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      04-05-2011, 10:18 PM   #57
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honestly, i think running the heater helps lower coolant temps more and maybe has a 10% effect on the oil temps to be realistic.
Well then next time your at the track, it would be nice to see your temp data, without the heater on.
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      04-06-2011, 12:06 AM   #58
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Well then next time your at the track, it would be nice to see your temp data, without the heater on.
Sorry...this is one of the most retarded suggestions ive ever seen(thats as polite as i will put it). The point of this thread is for me to provide some data for a solution that has worked to keep our cars under temps at the track. Just disclosing all the info I can about the conditions and mods at the track. I dont care what you believe, but this works and i hope it will be beneficial to the other members on this forum looking for a solution.
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      04-06-2011, 12:17 AM   #59
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Yes. they're finally out. what a great set up. All the haters that doubt this set up need to consider the fact that ER didn't just pull this config outta their ass. It's a result of trial and error over hours and hours of tracking their 135.
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      04-06-2011, 03:39 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
oh and a pic from the day - not bad without foglights right ?


I like the look a bit Mish

Quote:
Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
actually, ive never ran on the track without the heater not on at full blast. believe it or not, driving like the way i did this weekend, i would shoot temps to 290 in 2 laps with an fmic and cai with the same/less boost. to run the entire session as hard as i could and see stable temps... well thats gota be a crapload more cooling.

honestly, i think running the heater helps lower coolant temps more and maybe has a 10% effect on the oil temps to be realistic.
Not knowing our heater setup? But I would guess that the heat is taken from the water cooling via a water/heat exchanger (small water raditor ), so by turning on the heater we increase the watercooling capacity, therefore it could be interesting to se what would happen if you left the heater off just to figure out if a cooler watertemp has any effect on the Oiltemp. That way we can se if we need to upgrade the watercooling too. Is there a reason why Bmw went with an extra watercooler in their performanc-kit, but on the other hand Alpina b3s comes with an extra Oc

I must say Im impressed on sush a steady oiltemp so kudos to Er
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      04-06-2011, 04:56 AM   #61
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Interesting read. I plan to attend some trackdays this year and I'm really concerned about cooling.

Here's my plan: upgrade to the M-tech front bumper, leave the foglights out and install the bigger air ducts from the 335is (idea taken from marcel_b ). I'll see if this provides enough cooling in conjunction with the additional AR oilcooler.

If not, I'll add the second water radiator from the performance power kit (I hope it can be mounted with the AR OC, due to space contraints).

If even that doesn't help, I'll sink the car in the nearest river
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      04-06-2011, 09:01 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
Sorry...this is one of the most retarded suggestions ive ever seen(thats as polite as i will put it). The point of this thread is for me to provide some data for a solution that has worked to keep our cars under temps at the track. Just disclosing all the info I can about the conditions and mods at the track. I dont care what you believe, but this works and i hope it will be beneficial to the other members on this forum looking for a solution.
Why is that retarded? where is it posted on the ER site, that you should turn on your heater? Oh wait, next to the $1,500 price? I understand our cars run hot, but when was the last time you've seen a corvette, S2k, or any other car you see at these events, run with their heater on full blast? Re-read all my posts, I'm not bashing the ER product, or even promoting ar's, which is what I have. The last time I ran at the track, I didn't have an oil cooler, and hit 290. A guy there with a 335I manual with an oil cooler, maxed out at 275 degrees, and he DID NOT have his heater on, at all! SO to prove that this oil cooler is better than guys running just the stock one, you should run without the heater, like everybody else. Well thanks for at least coming on here and admiting you had the heater on. Didn't need the "retard" comment though.
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      04-06-2011, 09:05 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Aridk View Post
Not knowing our heater setup? But I would guess that the heat is taken from the water cooling via a water/heat exchanger (small water raditor ), so by turning on the heater we increase the watercooling capacity, therefore it could be interesting to se what would happen if you left the heater off just to figure out if a cooler watertemp has any effect on the Oiltemp. That way we can se if we need to upgrade the watercooling too. Is there a reason why Bmw went with an extra watercooler in their performanc-kit, but on the other hand Alpina b3s comes with an extra Oc
Careful, he called me a "retard" for stating the exact same obvious thing.
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      04-06-2011, 12:10 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Why is that retarded? where is it posted on the ER site, that you should turn on your heater? Oh wait, next to the $1,500 price? I understand our cars run hot, but when was the last time you've seen a corvette, S2k, or any other car you see at these events, run with their heater on full blast? Re-read all my posts, I'm not bashing the ER product, or even promoting ar's, which is what I have. The last time I ran at the track, I didn't have an oil cooler, and hit 290. A guy there with a 335I manual with an oil cooler, maxed out at 275 degrees, and he DID NOT have his heater on, at all! SO to prove that this oil cooler is better than guys running just the stock one, you should run without the heater, like everybody else. Well thanks for at least coming on here and admiting you had the heater on. Didn't need the "retard" comment though.
Im not blasting you because of anything ER related. Think about your comment. Im just speaking from my experience about the heater you can disregard it if youd like.

NA cars are totally different and you cant compare(apples oranges). Turbos create so much more heat... For me, having the heater on or off made very very little difference in overheatting with the oem coolers. It only made sense for me to run the same test with as little changes to attribute the temperature changes to the coolers.
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      04-07-2011, 01:41 AM   #65
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This thread has some really good info. I don't plan on tracking my 335i, but will invest in a oil cooler retrofit.


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      04-07-2011, 07:51 PM   #66
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Sorry for the late reply. We're burning the midnight oil getting our 135i ready for a race this weekend.

On a street car, the dual oil coolers are overkill. You will never have the opportunity (well maybe you will with the Autobahn) to keep sustained WOT conditions on the street. Thus, like someone mentioned, we have the Sport Kit.

For those who do track their cars, they all know it is not overkill. Nothing is worse than waking up early in the morning, driving to the track, paying a couple hundred $ to race, only to have your day ruined on the very first lap when your car goes into limp mode. I remember when we first started racing the car in 2008, our first event this happened. We drove 2 hours back to the shop, worked overnight and put on a bigger oil cooler only to go back to the track the next day and still have the same problem. We tried everything we could in 2008-09 to fight off the limp mode gremlins until we finally came up with this solution. When we first did it, I remember everyone at the track was asking (and probably ridiculing) us for 2 huge oil coolers on the car. Well it worked. I used to have nightmares about limp mode but no more. From the back of the pack now to the front of the pack and one of the top teams in our class. Yeah nobody laughs at us anymore . Well at least not for being slow.

As for water temps, it is also an issue though not as prevalent as oil temps. It used to be a major problem before as well because of the oil temps. The oil is air cooled as well as water cooled. Thus, when your oil temps are high, it transfers a lot of heat to the cooling system. With the oil temps under control, it's not much a big of an issue as it used to be.
The only times I can remember us having issues cause of water temp was at California Speedway in 100+ weather. We run part of the oval and see speeds over 150mph so it's understandable why temps would be an issue at this track.

It really depends on what kind of track you would be doing. If you're doing autox, drag racing or something where you're not in a prolonged WOT condition, then the BMW power kit might be the way to go. If you do road racing, I would highly recommend the Competition Dual Oil Cooler setup. You wouldn't want to spend all that $ on the power kit and then having to get rid of it when oil temps become an issue. And trust me, if you road race it will be an issue.

As for extra pictures, I don't think I have any. I'm not very good at remembering to take pictures when we work. Marketing is not really my thing. Only pictures we did take are on the website. The ducting runs all the way to the front bumper. You can see them in this picture on our car http://evolutionracewerks.com/?q=gal...geViewsIndex=1





Quote:
Originally Posted by Aridk View Post
Dont get me wrong I like the set up, but just starting to think its a bit overkill running to massive oilcoolers in serie shouldnt the "hardware" (bigger diameter oillines larger-fasterrunning pump) be modded to suit the massive cooling potential fom 2 large OC.

Im planing to upgrade my cooling system as well cause Im not able to do prolonged highspeed cruising on the German autobahn and I do some trackdays also.

I have thought about a larger Oc inplace of the stock one, and then an additional Watercooler in the left wheel faring from the performance kit, so maby Er you could tell me from experience if the stock watercooling is adequate and that Im much better of with 2 OC?
Could you post up a couble extra pics of you cooling duct olso from the front of the car, thx
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