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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > JB4 CPS offset dyno testing and logs



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      03-23-2011, 02:01 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by JPSlick View Post
Its been mentioned many times that its too much boost. You are quite the salesmen Mike. I commend you. You just turned my post into an advertisement and didnt touch anything else or hit on a thing I mentioned but just beat right around the bush.

As long as other people learn from it thats fine with me.



What tuning background do you have? Or what sources would you like to claim that have an agreement that riding the knock sensor is the ideal way of tuning.

Notice I didnt put a question mark.

Keep your judgments and opinions to yourself, lets stick with hard facts and data. Bringing up some mud to sling through a comment like this does nothing but derail the thread.

This is about improving a product.... Dont get it twisted.



I'm starting to lose patience with the people above..... and the same fanobis just coming in with their .02 and no tuning background. I'm all for questions, but the derail JB camp is simply annoying.
No tuning background what so ever. But there is this thing called quantifiable data, and there are "x" amount of JB3/4's out there with "x" amount of miles on them and if the BMS tuning method is so horribly wrong we would have drastic amount of engine failures, not just the couple that most likely have been user failure.
This gets said over and over again, but the rebuttal is that "its not how i properly tuned my subi's/evo's/speed3's", we are working with a different platform that can obviously work in tandum with the way that BMS is tuning, like it or not, it works with little to no damage.
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      03-23-2011, 02:01 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Sniz View Post
there is a simple reason for that JP, people who have even the smallest idea of what should and should not be done when tuning their cars are not JB supporters.

At least Terry is on the right track but its a bit painful seeing the learning curve that others knew before the n54 was even an idea in a BMW engineer's head.
They act so offensive, yet we are voicing to improve the product. I dont see why they have to fight tooth and nail to just learn something, and improve something they have.

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Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
No tuning background what so ever. But there is this thing called quantifiable data, and there are "x" amount of JB3/4's out there with "x" amount of miles on them and if the BMS tuning method is so horribly wrong we would have drastic amount of engine failures, not just the couple that most likely have been user failure.
This gets said over and over again, but the rebuttal is that "its not how i properly tuned my subi's/evo's/speed3's", we are working with a different platform that can obviously work in tandum with the way that BMS is tuning, like it or not, it works with little to no damage.
Cool story. didnt even read it after the first sentence.

Read my post above.

There is a difference between something working and something being ideal.

We are improving a product. Indirectly helping you and other JB users.

Yet you fight us constantly when you should be thanking us.

Sit back, learn a thing or 2....
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      03-23-2011, 02:34 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by JPSlick View Post

Mike- tuning 101.

Torque is your enemy and your friend.

This car makes its largest torque in the mid-range. That is going be a "hot" area. You would by no accident find your least amount of ignition in those areas.
Be nice if it were that easy (and for that matter, true). In fact, on higher that stock boosting BMW runs the same timing at 3000 rpm (the region of max. torque) as they do at 7000 rpm. Although I agree that they taper off on timing, at least a bit, after that.

I think one of Terry's conclusions is that if nothing else, one could dial in say -2 deg. of timing across the entire rpm band and introduce some extra safety when running more moderate boosting. I suppose one positive aspect would be that the end-user wouldn't have to be as diligent about quality of gas selection from day to day.
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      03-23-2011, 03:34 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
The best piece of data to come from this testing IMHO is that at 14.5psi on 91 octane, under these conditions, no timing curve is going to really eliminate these drops. It's just too much boost for the octane. The DME was not able to find a perfect curve and offsetting CPS didn't help.

Mike
Ca-ching!

But as others have already pointed out.....that does not negate the positive impact timing offset has at more compatible boost and octane combinations.

You just have to be willing to put in the effort to dial your car in.

People are getting pissed with the FUD marketing that BMS attaches to their conclusions stating that reduced timing is of little benefit.

It's all just a matter of preference as to how much knock you want to experience versus the power gain.

I'm of the camp that you should strive to minimize the knock events as much as possible.
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      03-23-2011, 03:39 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
Ca-ching!

But as others have already pointed out.....that does not negate the positive impact timing offset has at more compatible boost and octane combinations.

You just have to be willing to put in the effort to dial your car in.

People are getting pissed with the FUD marketing that BMS attaches to their conclusions stating that reduced timing is of little benefit.

It's all just a matter of preference as to how much knock you want to experience versus the power gain.

I'm of the camp that you should strive to minimize the knock events as much as possible.
The data also contradicts the popular theory that timing drops are knock. The runs with the most knock on map 2 were the smoothest and had the highest power output. If knock were occurring this would be impossible.

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      03-23-2011, 03:53 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
The data also contradicts the popular theory that timing drops are knock. The runs with the most knock on map 2 were the smoothest and had the highest power output. If knock were occurring this would be impossible.

Mike
Ok.....I have to concur on that point if it is indeed true. I didn't correlate the dyno's to the timing curves. Clap seemed to say he was going to make a point about that later today.

But you guys are very good at saying what it isn't.

How about telling us what it is?

To me it looks like a knock event that recovered quickly and kept ramping the timing curve upwards.

In otherwords, it wasn't detrimental knock, but some say that it's impossible for timing to dip without the knock sensors registering a reason to pull timing in the first place.

So there in lies the paradox.......

Do explain please.
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      03-23-2011, 04:00 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
Ok.....I have to concur on that point if it is indeed true. I didn't correlate the dyno's to the timing curves. Clap seemed to say he was going to make a point about that later today.

But you guys are very good at saying what it isn't.

How about telling us what it is?

To me it looks like a knock event that recovered quickly and kept ramping the timing curve upwards.

In otherwords, it wasn't detrimental knock, but some say that it's impossible for timing to dip without the knock sensors registering a reason to pull timing in the first place.

So there in lies the paradox.......

Do explain please.
It's easy to look at the logs and run files and compare. On all the map 2 runs there are small ripples of equal amplitude, even on the 60% CPS run which had the cleanest timing curve. I'm not offering anything new on what the timing dips are and represent aside from what I've already said on it. That they are early knock the DME is catching and thwarting before it becomes actual knock. That thousands users have run tens of millions of miles with these dips with rarely an issue very strongly reinforced that opinion. Now to see there is also no noticeable power drop more strongly reinforces it.

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      03-23-2011, 04:12 PM   #74
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I'm still getting timing drops on a full bolt on car w/ 94-95 octane gas while running the Cobb 93 octane map. And this in was in weather below 60 too. I just don't believe it's hurting the engine, or hurting my power output in any way whatseover.
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      03-23-2011, 04:17 PM   #75
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Not enough information being presented to conclude anything at this point.

We are seeing 1 of 6 cylinders ignition.

No EGT Data.

No Knock threshold Voltage

ETC ETC

More Speculation.

What can be said is in terms of driveability, responsiveness, day to day consistency and performance... Smoothing of ignition timing would be beneficial. Finding the happy medium of ignition and power is what we are after. As you can see with 30% offset power is arguably the same. So there is clearly advantage of adding safety while having similar performance. Point proven right there.

Only thing now is... what can be improved on top of that.

I will admit the responsiveness of the timing drop outs in this particular platform is odd.... Which is why we need to read into more sensors or look into more logic of why the ECU does what it does.
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      03-23-2011, 04:18 PM   #76
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All this experiment shows is the following

1. Reducing timing indiscriminatly has other implications like higher egts, Hot spots where you don't want them.
2. You should be reducing more timing at peak torque then tapering it back UP as your rpms go up, not the other way around.
3. Cps offsetting as timng control has limitations due to its affect on injection timing - doh, is that why flash tuning is the REAL solution?
4. Add fuel while reducing timing to reduce knock. Timing contol by itself is not enough. Just because its a DI motor does not mean you can run it lean as shit.
5. 91 oct does not support 14 psi on engines with high static compression

I would really like to see a log with no timing control at 14 psi on a jb car on a dyno that simulates a 1/4 mile run. Ie 1st to the top of 4th gear. Lets see some smooth timing curves then. Would love to see the same for procede and then for flash tunes. I think we are laying too much emphasis on single gear dyno runs.

Harry
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      03-23-2011, 04:43 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTUNER View Post
All this experiment shows is the following

1. Reducing timing indiscriminatly has other implications like higher egts, Hot spots where you don't want them.
2. You should be reducing more timing at peak torque then tapering it back UP as your rpms go up, not the other way around.
3. Cps offsetting as timng control has limitations due to its affect on injection timing - doh, is that why flash tuning is the REAL solution?
4. Add fuel while reducing timing to reduce knock. Timing contol by itself is not enough. Just because its a DI motor does not mean you can run it lean as shit.
5. 91 oct does not support 14 psi on engines with high static compression

I would really like to see a log with no timing control at 14 psi on a jb car on a dyno that simulates a 1/4 mile run. Ie 1st to the top of 4th gear. Lets see some smooth timing curves then. Would love to see the same for procede and then for flash tunes. I think we are laying too much emphasis on single gear dyno runs.

Harry
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      03-23-2011, 04:51 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
It's easy to look at the logs and run files and compare. On all the map 2 runs there are small ripples of equal amplitude, even on the 60% CPS run which had the cleanest timing curve. I'm not offering anything new on what the timing dips are and represent aside from what I've already said on it. That they are early knock the DME is catching and thwarting before it becomes actual knock. That thousands users have run tens of millions of miles with these dips with rarely an issue very strongly reinforced that opinion. Now to see there is also no noticeable power drop more strongly reinforces it.

Mike

I think that about the only valid conclusion one can deduce from those logs is that 14.5 psi is too much for 91 octane.

Any other conclusion stems from a bad outcome to start with so it's built upon a bad foundation.

But I get what you are stating.....you make more power with no cps offset, therefore timing dips are of little consequence to your engine and are not really serious knock events that the DME cannot control.

OK.

But personally, I'm still going to run some offset just to minimize those dips, and I'm going to run boost levels that are in line with whatever my octane can support.
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      03-23-2011, 06:06 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick View Post
They act so offensive, yet we are voicing to improve the product. I dont see why they have to fight tooth and nail to just learn something, and improve something they have.



Cool story. didnt even read it after the first sentence.

Read my post above.

There is a difference between something working and something being ideal.

We are improving a product. Indirectly helping you and other JB users.

Yet you fight us constantly when you should be thanking us.

Sit back, learn a thing or 2....
Umm I have left the piggy world late last year and went with a flash, but thank you for your assumptions though.
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      03-23-2011, 06:20 PM   #80
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Map 1 on JB4 with 93 octane for life !!!!!

only because this seems the safest right now......

i CAN'T WAIT to see if Cobb can pull @ 80whp on a PROtune with 13.5-14psi and have NO DIPS.

if they can do that i'll be a Cobb fanboi and Cobb user.
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      03-23-2011, 07:04 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Litos View Post
Map 1 on JB4 with 93 octane for life !!!!!

only because this seems the safest right now......

i CAN'T WAIT to see if Cobb can pull @ 80whp on a PROtune with 13.5-14psi and have NO DIPS.

if they can do that i'll be a Cobb fanboi and Cobb user.
Protune? I am doing that with stage 1, and have been doing that for 3k miles.....Actually I am hitting 15psi falling to 13

But heres a 13-14psi stage 1 tune, notice the timing?

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      03-23-2011, 07:06 PM   #82
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Quote:
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Protune? I am doing that with stage 1, and have been doing that for 3k miles.....Actually I am hitting 15psi falling to 13
Do you have any recent dynos with logs? Sorry for the OT question.
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      03-23-2011, 07:07 PM   #83
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Do you have any recent dynos with logs? Sorry for the OT question.
Nothing recent as there is no point of logging this thing, my tune simply does not move.
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      03-23-2011, 07:14 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
Umm I have left the piggy world late last year and went with a flash, but thank you for your assumptions though.
Thanks for derailing the thread with nothing to contribute
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      03-23-2011, 07:52 PM   #85
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they are early knock the DME is catching and thwarting before it becomes actual knock.

Mike
So as I was shovelling the driveway of all this fucking snow, I thought to myself......where does pre-knock end and real knock begin?

How many dips in timing before you call it real knock?
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      03-23-2011, 08:11 PM   #86
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So as I was shovelling the driveway of all this fucking snow, I thought to myself......where does pre-knock end and real knock begin?

How many dips in timing before you call it real knock?
You need to come shovel mine. I can't make myself shovel another snowfall.... I was physiologically done with snow and now another huge snowstorm

Back to your question, one criteria would be seeing a big dip in power at that RPM due to the abnormal combustion. The DME is pretty good are predicting when real knock is about to happen and circumventing it. Somehow it picks up early frequencies indicating things are turning south before it actually does. There is also a thread on another forum discussing how the DME may be pulling knock info through the ignition system as well.

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      03-23-2011, 08:24 PM   #87
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The DME is pretty good are predicting when real knock is about to happen and circumventing it.
has ANYONE ever defined "real knock" !?!?
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      03-23-2011, 08:25 PM   #88
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Protune? I am doing that with stage 1, and have been doing that for 3k miles.....Actually I am hitting 15psi falling to 13

But heres a 13-14psi stage 1 tune, notice the timing?
that looks sexy, but i've seen reports of dips on stage 1.

i'd pay for the PROtune to ALWAYS know that my car is never going to dip and it's never going to knock - and if they can get 80-90whp with DCI's and a FMIC, i'm down like syndrome for Cobb.
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