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      03-13-2007, 08:33 PM   #199
shiv@vishnu
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Originally Posted by hotrod2448 View Post
Shiv comes from us broke outspoken Mitsubishi and Subaru owners who want to go as fast as possible as cheap as possible for the most part and cry like little girls when we feel the pricing is too high, the parts don't perform as well as someone else's or we could do it ourselves.
lol...

I think the real reason for BMW (and Porsche and Audi) pricing being high is that few of the popular tuners actually develope the engine control system in-house. Almost all of them rely on 3rd parties for ECU flashes. Also, none that I know actualy do in-house calibration. Instead, they usually just try off-the-shelf flashes from GIAC until they find something that works reasonably well with their kit. It's unreal how many people I meet in this industry who tell me their car got "tuned by so and so." I ask them how long the tuning process took and what kind of questions did the tuner ask them only to find out that their definition of "getting tuning" was trying flash after flash, through the mail, until they find one that works adequately at best. The only BMW tuning shop I know of that actually does in-house calibration is Dinan. I've seen their facility and was given a tour by Steve himself. It's a very impressive place. Of course, you pay for it.

-shiv
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      03-13-2007, 08:36 PM   #200
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Do you own the PROcede? (just wondering if we will see other tuners using the same box as you, ever.)
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Originally Posted by radgator1 View Post


Not sure it matters much, but there was a long period of time many folks assumed Xede was yours. So do you own Procede?

I think you missed these questions...

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      03-13-2007, 08:36 PM   #201
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Can there really be that much more R&D in a BMW FI system than any other car?

I do a fair bit of R&D work (racing not street cars) myself and I can't see it being that much more involved. It's just the status quo for the BMW market.
Agreed. I am just glad to see the PROcede with exceptional gains at a nice price.
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      03-13-2007, 08:39 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
lol...

The only BMW tuning shop I know of that actually does in-house calibration is Dinan. I've seen their facility and was given a tour by Steve himself. It's a very impressive place. Of course, you pay for it.

-shiv
Dinan probably even charged for the tour
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      03-13-2007, 08:47 PM   #203
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Shiv, If you're ever in the Charlotte area PM me. If you liked Dinan's shop I'll show you a shop that will amaze you.

Last edited by hotrod2448; 03-14-2007 at 12:15 PM.
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      03-14-2007, 06:42 AM   #204
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Issues with the N54 motor.

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Originally Posted by stressdoc View Post
The one thing I would LOVE to see is a BMW AG engineer get into the discussion of the aftermarket tuning. What does BMW think are the potential costs to the use of the PROcede?
I am not an engineer at BMW AG but I do have contacts wth the engineers that work at FIZ. I want to share some information that may be useful, and I apologize in advance if you guys already know most of this. All numbers quoted are DIN at the crank.

BMW is working at releasing an N54 HP motor by the end of this year. Although the platforms that will be equipped with this version have not yet been decided, it is safe to say that the E90 through E93 platforms will get it as soon as it is available. The expected HP rating is around 355PS, up from the standard 306PS of today's motor. The current HP test engines have exacerbated a problem that already exists on the current 306PS motor, where the temperatures of cylinders 5 and 6 are higher than expected and are a huge cause for concern. BMW is looking at a solution to this problem, and is also anticipating that they may experience some engine failures on the current motor. What is clear, is that they heve to wrestle the cause of the problem, and/or find a solution, before they release the N54 HP version into the market.

In typical BMW fashion, these issues are monitored without being made public, as they do not want to have to answer to any unwanted warranty claim, or even worse, be forced to issue a general recall that may prove to be unecessary, as they will address the isolated cases on a one-by-one basis. This is no different than how they handled the piston ring/oil consumption problem on the early S62 motor. Don't be surprised, if they should decide to keep the standard 306PS version alongside the HP (i.e. in the 135i), to see next year's engine to be a little different than what is offered today.

If any of you have driven your 335i hard, you may have noticed a tendency for the oil temperatures to be a little high. The problem is that the temperature gauge is measuring the average temperature once the oil recirculates, so you can imagine, if cylinders 5 and 6 are the ones generating most of the heat, that this is an area that could be prone to failure.

Recently Alpina introduced their Alpina B3 BiTurbo at the Geneva Auto Salón. The car is rated at 360PS, and this is the level of power that BMW feels safe with at this point. We may sit here and go back and forth on who of the vendors on this board produces the most power and why, but surely nobody will try to argue that Alpina does not have the resources, nor the expertise, to extract every bit of power from the N54 motor. Just keep in mind that they have had experience with turbocharged BMW motors that goes back 30 years, and have been consulting with BMW on the development of the N54 motor itself.

Like Alpina and BMW, Racing Dynamics S.p.A. and its U.S. arm RDSport are approacing this subject with caution, and our current offering is a result of many factors: the main one is the oveheating issue, but most of the others haven't even been mentioned anywhere in this thread.

Good luck to all.

Racing Dynamics S.p.A./RDSport
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      03-14-2007, 06:52 AM   #205
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Addendum

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I am currently in Europe and this coming Friday I will be at BMW to discuss a few technical issues, one of which is the subject of my previous post. I will try to remember to give you an update after the meeting. Should I forget, please send me a PM as a reminder. I may be flying back to California, but I will do my best to share the information.
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      03-14-2007, 06:59 AM   #206
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So the 335i will carry a HP rating of 355?? Is this still using the twin turbo set up? Seems like a bold step particularly if the M3 is going to be rated at approx 420.
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      03-14-2007, 08:27 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
lol...

I think the real reason for BMW (and Porsche and Audi) pricing being high is that few of the popular tuners actually develope the engine control system in-house. Almost all of them rely on 3rd parties for ECU flashes. Also, none that I know actualy do in-house calibration. Instead, they usually just try off-the-shelf flashes from GIAC until they find something that works reasonably well with their kit. It's unreal how many people I meet in this industry who tell me their car got "tuned by so and so." I ask them how long the tuning process took and what kind of questions did the tuner ask them only to find out that their definition of "getting tuning" was trying flash after flash, through the mail, until they find one that works adequately at best. The only BMW tuning shop I know of that actually does in-house calibration is Dinan. I've seen their facility and was given a tour by Steve himself. It's a very impressive place. Of course, you pay for it.

-shiv
You should go visit AA, then you will know two BMW shops that do in-house ecu tuning.
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      03-14-2007, 08:34 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by RDSport View Post
BMW is working at releasing an N54 HP motor by the end of this year.
So, it's expected to be released for the Sept 2007 production?
or is it after that?

You just made me so excited
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      03-14-2007, 08:43 AM   #209
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If cylinders 5 & 6 run so much hotter wouldn't they be prone to detonation or is that completely alleviated by the direct injection? I would think you would still see some knock activity if they were dangerously hot.

Shiv, have you logged EGT's on these cars?

360 PS is 355hP so, it looks like the Procede is still safe by the info above.
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      03-14-2007, 10:46 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by hotrod2448 View Post
If cylinders 5 & 6 run so much hotter wouldn't they be prone to detonation or is that completely alleviated by the direct injection? I would think you would still see some knock activity if they were dangerously hot.

Shiv, have you logged EGT's on these cars?

360 PS is 355hP so, it looks like the Procede is still safe by the info above.
We have logged EGT and found no rise over stock. This was accomplished by dropping on-boost AFR by over point at mid to high RPM. If we had just raised the boost, we most certainly would be seeing higher than stock exhaust and in-cylinder temps. I have measured EGT in both downpipes (cyl 1,2,3 and cyl 4,5,6) and haven't recorded any difference between them. If 5 and 6 run hotter, 4 must run colder because they average out the same

Regards,
shiv
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      03-14-2007, 10:54 AM   #211
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I have been lurking on this board for a little bit. I have finally felt compelled to post because I see that there are so many questions out there. While I see that Shiv has contributed a lot of information he is only one person and people have a lot of questions... Hopefully Shiv and everyone else will welcome someone from another company who also wants to develop product for the 335i and provide data to interested enthusiasts.

Let me introduce myself... My name is Merritt and I am currently an engineer at Turbonetics (http://www.turboneticsinc.com). Previously I was an engineer at AEM. I have had an E46 M3 for the past 3 years. I have ordered a 335i which I will be trading the M3 in for. The car is in transit and due to arrive next month. I will be collecting a lot of data on the car for product development. I will also be logging the process for media outlets. I will be happy to share my findings with everyone here.
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      03-14-2007, 12:10 PM   #212
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I have been lurking on this board for a little bit. I have finally felt compelled to post because I see that there are so many questions out there. While I see that Shiv has contributed a lot of information he is only one person and people have a lot of questions... Hopefully Shiv and everyone else will welcome someone from another company who also wants to develop product for the 335i and provide data to interested enthusiasts.

Let me introduce myself... My name is Merritt and I am currently an engineer at Turbonetics (http://www.turboneticsinc.com). Previously I was an engineer at AEM. I have had an E46 M3 for the past 3 years. I have ordered a 335i which I will be trading the M3 in for. The car is in transit and due to arrive next month. I will be collecting a lot of data on the car for product development. I will also be logging the process for media outlets. I will be happy to share my findings with everyone here.
Welcome to the club Merritt! I would suggest that you first work on downpipes for the 335. I have heard many people asking for them.
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      03-14-2007, 12:15 PM   #213
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Nice to have you aboard. Back in the day I had a nice view of your building and Vortech's from my office in Moorpark (Kretek Intl).



Quote:
Originally Posted by merritt View Post
I have been lurking on this board for a little bit. I have finally felt compelled to post because I see that there are so many questions out there. While I see that Shiv has contributed a lot of information he is only one person and people have a lot of questions... Hopefully Shiv and everyone else will welcome someone from another company who also wants to develop product for the 335i and provide data to interested enthusiasts.

Let me introduce myself... My name is Merritt and I am currently an engineer at Turbonetics (http://www.turboneticsinc.com). Previously I was an engineer at AEM. I have had an E46 M3 for the past 3 years. I have ordered a 335i which I will be trading the M3 in for. The car is in transit and due to arrive next month. I will be collecting a lot of data on the car for product development. I will also be logging the process for media outlets. I will be happy to share my findings with everyone here.
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      03-14-2007, 12:18 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by merritt View Post
I have been lurking on this board for a little bit. I have finally felt compelled to post because I see that there are so many questions out there. While I see that Shiv has contributed a lot of information he is only one person and people have a lot of questions... Hopefully Shiv and everyone else will welcome someone from another company who also wants to develop product for the 335i and provide data to interested enthusiasts.

Let me introduce myself... My name is Merritt and I am currently an engineer at Turbonetics (http://www.turboneticsinc.com). Previously I was an engineer at AEM. I have had an E46 M3 for the past 3 years. I have ordered a 335i which I will be trading the M3 in for. The car is in transit and due to arrive next month. I will be collecting a lot of data on the car for product development. I will also be logging the process for media outlets. I will be happy to share my findings with everyone here.
Cool. You can never have too much data. Just too much politics.
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      03-14-2007, 12:49 PM   #215
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Nice to have you aboard. Back in the day I had a nice view of your building and Vortech's from my office in Moorpark (Kretek Intl).
Thanks. I noticed your location says Simi Valley. I was thinking how convenient...
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      03-14-2007, 01:21 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merritt View Post
I have been lurking on this board for a little bit. I have finally felt compelled to post because I see that there are so many questions out there. While I see that Shiv has contributed a lot of information he is only one person and people have a lot of questions... Hopefully Shiv and everyone else will welcome someone from another company who also wants to develop product for the 335i and provide data to interested enthusiasts.

Let me introduce myself... My name is Merritt and I am currently an engineer at Turbonetics (http://www.turboneticsinc.com). Previously I was an engineer at AEM. I have had an E46 M3 for the past 3 years. I have ordered a 335i which I will be trading the M3 in for. The car is in transit and due to arrive next month. I will be collecting a lot of data on the car for product development. I will also be logging the process for media outlets. I will be happy to share my findings with everyone here.
Can't go wrong with Turbonetics!!
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      03-14-2007, 02:03 PM   #217
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Cool snail!
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      03-14-2007, 03:03 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I ask them how long the tuning process took and what kind of questions did the tuner ask them only to find out that their definition of "getting tuning" was trying flash after flash, through the mail, until they find one that works adequately at best. The only BMW tuning shop I know of that actually does in-house calibration is Dinan. I've seen their facility and was given a tour by Steve himself. It's a very impressive place. Of course, you pay for it.

-shiv
Just clarifying that we ( Active Autowerke ) do a very large amount of in-house calibration, tuning, and R&D.
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      03-14-2007, 03:49 PM   #219
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Home of the Worlds Fastest Documented 335 . :rocks:
Any details on this statement found on your signature?

.
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      03-14-2007, 04:17 PM   #220
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Just clarifying that we ( Active Autowerke ) do a very large amount of in-house calibration, tuning, and R&D.
What computer are you using on your world's fastest 335i? So it's now trapping over 111mph?

Shiv
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