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      03-14-2007, 04:35 PM   #221
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Unless the rev limiter is removed, shouldn't they all have about the same top speed?
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      03-14-2007, 04:37 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by RDSport View Post
... where the temperatures of cylinders 5 and 6 are higher than expected and are a huge cause for concern. BMW is looking at a solution to this problem, and is also anticipating that they may experience some engine failures on the current motor.

Recently Alpina introduced their Alpina B3 BiTurbo at the Geneva Auto Salón. The car is rated at 360PS, and this is the level of power that BMW feels safe with at this point. We may sit here and go back and forth on who of the vendors on this board produces the most power and why, but surely nobody will try to argue that Alpina does not have the resources, nor the expertise, to extract every bit of power from the N54 motor. Just keep in mind that they have had experience with turbocharged BMW motors that goes back 30 years, and have been consulting with BMW on the development of the N54 motor itself.

Like Alpina and BMW, Racing Dynamics S.p.A. and its U.S. arm RDSport are approacing this subject with caution, and our current offering is a result of many factors: the main one is the oveheating issue, but most of the others haven't even been mentioned anywhere in this thread.

Good luck to all.

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There is so much mis-information in these forums it's difficult to know what and who to trust. It's also clear that the tuners working on the 335i don't all know the same about tuning. Of course nobody doubts Alpina's ability to extract every possible pony out of the small twins but they may have set different objectives in tuning the 335.

Back to your point on high engine temps. If the temps in C5/C6 were abnormally high in every car, why didn't BMW identify and fix this prior to release instead of taking the risk of a massive recall? This maybe a problem with a small batch of cars but is it a problem with every car? Where is the evidence? Assuming Shiv didn't mangle the data in his car how do you explain that he can't see any difference in temps? (other than the expl. that 5 & 6 running hot but 4 running twice as cold to even things out?) I am not a believer yet.

Let's see some evidence ...
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      03-14-2007, 04:58 PM   #223
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Unless the rev limiter is removed, shouldn't they all have about the same top speed?
"Fastest" claims referring to trap speed in the 1/4 mile. "Quickest" refer to ET.

shiv
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      03-14-2007, 05:10 PM   #224
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"Fastest" claims referring to trap speed in the 1/4 mile. "Quickest" refer to ET.

shiv
As usual my attempt at humor fell flat.

Maybe I'll stick to my day job as a hit man.
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      03-14-2007, 05:39 PM   #225
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Hi Frederico. How is your R35 biturbo development going on? You were testing your 335 version already is September, half a year ago. It was already then "consistenty surpassing 420 hp mark". The same text is on your www.racdyn.com pages still, but surely you have increased the hp figure by huge leaps in half a year, because you came up with that big gains already almost immediately after the 335 began shipping? I have been checking your pages daily, but I have not seen any update for half a year. Thanks for any info on your releases.
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      03-14-2007, 08:34 PM   #226
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I will try to remember to give you an update after the meeting. Should I forget, ...
Cute. A bit condescending and insulting but cute nevertheless.

If I forget to give you guys some of my business, please make sure to PM me too.

What's your company name again?
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      03-14-2007, 09:07 PM   #227
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Any details on this statement found on your signature?

.
http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW-335i-Timeslip-11392.html
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      03-14-2007, 11:27 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
We have logged EGT and found no rise over stock. This was accomplished by dropping on-boost AFR by over point at mid to high RPM. If we had just raised the boost, we most certainly would be seeing higher than stock exhaust and in-cylinder temps. I have measured EGT in both downpipes (cyl 1,2,3 and cyl 4,5,6) and haven't recorded any difference between them. If 5 and 6 run hotter, 4 must run colder because they average out the same

Regards,
shiv
Measuring the exhaust gas is not sufficient to draw any conclusions as you need to dig a lot deeper. I would like to know the duty cycle that influences these local temperatures rises as it might be hard to reproduce.

From the obviously lack of information/validation it does sound like this may be a cooling loop design problem if it does exists. There may be a specific load profile and duration that causes a temperature rise in a local area that might run away or take some time to hit steady state that is above an efficient operating limit. You’re not going to see this measuring exhaust temperature 1’ away with such a high delta.

I have no doubt BWW used extensive CFD analysis which is well understood for this type of simple flow so we would have to assume excessive pressure drop and poor flow don’t exist or maybe they do? However, what is difficult to analyze is the effect of air bubbles can have in a system and they typically show as this type of problem leads to localized boiling of the coolant and then thing go down hill from there. It is just a bit suspicious that the effected local area is at the end of the inlet manifold.

I don’t know how many time I been nailed by air bubble problems in coolant system design even with good and proven separation systems.

Anyways, all speculation on my part but I think it worth a bit more of a look?

Last edited by Orb; 03-15-2007 at 09:44 PM.
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      03-15-2007, 02:16 AM   #229
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There is a lot of good information being provided Glad to see where this thread is going now.

AA, glad to see that you guys do in house tuning and have been producing quality products throughout the years. Keep up the good work

Alpina is a trusted name and to me, so is RD, Hartge... because these guys started the tuning industry for BMW. It is understood that this is the internet and you guys want to see the proof in the pudding. There are always going to be extreme cases of power like AA producing their insane 1000hp or so E36 M3.

RD Sport/Racing Dynamics with their claim to 420hp is reasonable because it does not say what is used to produce that HP number. It could be turbo upgrades for all we know.

From RD Sport website: http://racdyn.com/Catalog/Auto/Serie.../E92_Intro.cfm
Quote:
Racing Dynamics' development of BMW's new twin-turbo motor is called the R35 Biturbo, and is currently being tested in a variety of trims that are already consistently surpassing the 420Hp mark.

Our signature RS2-Forged wheels are available in 19" and 20" and can be complemented with a variety of suspension and brake components that will exploit the 3 series' potential to its fullest.



There is a lot of technical information being mentioned that goes way over my head.

Consider the word 'safe' to be used loosely because that is based on what a company is willing to make available and 'reliability' is viewed differently as well. Much like what someone considers to be a 'safe' speed to drive. With the engine completely stock, 155mph works just fine for me.

Merritt... Welcome. You will love the 335i.
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      03-15-2007, 10:38 AM   #230
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AA, glad to see that you guys do in house tuning and have been producing quality products throughout the years. Keep up the good work

Thank You Sir.
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      03-15-2007, 11:08 AM   #231
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As expected I see that operating temperatures are a big question.
When I start playing with my 335i I plan to approach it using the lessons I have learned working with Nissan Skyline GT-Rs.

Last year I worked with an R34 Nissan Skyline GT-R in the SCCA Speed World Challenge GT series. GT-Rs, also being inline 6 twin turbo motors, have particular issues in the design that I think might somewhat spill over into the 335i as well. In particular the RB26DETT motor in the GT-R tends to overheat during spirited driving so most users install aftermarket oil coolers. It is a definite must if the turbochargers are upgraded. However the addition of the oil cooler drops the oil pressure. Most RB26DETT owners also upgrade the oil pump. Also in a long motor such as an inline 6 oil pickup can become an issue during hard cornering.

I am getting a data logger from Innovate Motorsports (apparently it is currently lost in the mail somewhere, grrrr). I really want to see what sorts of benefits an upgraded intercooler might have, along with downpipes. The drop in backpressure from eliminating the catalytic converters and more efficiently cooling the intake charge could potentially cause a significant drop the operating temperatures.
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      03-15-2007, 02:24 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
lol...

I think the real reason for BMW (and Porsche and Audi) pricing being high is that few of the popular tuners actually develope the engine control system in-house. Almost all of them rely on 3rd parties for ECU flashes. Also, none that I know actualy do in-house calibration. Instead, they usually just try off-the-shelf flashes from GIAC until they find something that works reasonably well with their kit. It's unreal how many people I meet in this industry who tell me their car got "tuned by so and so." I ask them how long the tuning process took and what kind of questions did the tuner ask them only to find out that their definition of "getting tuning" was trying flash after flash, through the mail, until they find one that works adequately at best. The only BMW tuning shop I know of that actually does in-house calibration is Dinan. I've seen their facility and was given a tour by Steve himself. It's a very impressive place. Of course, you pay for it.

-shiv
With all do respect, DINAN sucks. They could not do a thing with the E46 except make the gas pedal more sensitive and remove the limiter. The items you get from dinan is all name and hype, there is nothing they do from the E46 that was great.

A buddy of mine was the prototype E39 549i car for the s/c and til this day it still has issues and is not running correctly.

AA has been around for a very long time doing F/I stuff. They were the first to put a S/C on the E46 M3 without it blowing up when the engines were having isseues themselves. They are the only one that I know of that has a E46 330 Turbo. They do all sorts of custom work catered to the customer and the reliability is the same if the car was stock. If you look around on bimmerforums or dtmpower, there are so many guys running on AA items that don't have any issues til now. AA knows there stuff and rewrites the ECU rather than doing a piggybank.
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      03-15-2007, 02:28 PM   #233
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AA has been around for a very long time doing F/I stuff. They were the first to put a S/C on the E46 M3 without it blowing up when the engines were having isseues themselves. They are the only one that I know of that has a E46 330 Turbo. They do all sorts of custom work catered to the customer and the reliability is the same if the car was stock. If you look around on bimmerforums or dtmpower, there are so many guys running on AA items that don't have any issues til now. AA knows there stuff and rewrites the ECU rather than doing a piggybank.

Thank You Sir.
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      03-15-2007, 07:27 PM   #234
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Measuring the exhaust gas is not sufficient to draw any conclusions as you need to dig a lot deeper. I would like to know the duty cycle that influences these local temperatures rises as it might be hard to reproduce.

From the obviously lack of information/validation it does sound like this may be a cooling loop design problem if it does exists. There may be a specific load profile and duration that causes a temperature to rise in a local area that might run away or take some time to hit steady state that is above an efficient operating limit.
I recently spoke with a friend close to this subject and you are correct. It is an issue of coolant flow in the block that makes itself more apparent in increased HP applications. It is more specific to cylinder 5, actually.

People can call this a design flaw, but in all practical purposes, it is not. The car is spec'ed for 300 crank HP, and should operate effectively in that range. More power= more heat= weak spots in the design are going to show themselves.

Unfortuneatly, Shiv's testing measures are not sufficient and cannot compare to internal BMW testing (basing this off of RD's post) Also, none of the "tuned" cars have been put under extended load conditions, to the best of my knowledge, and not all cars are going to fail right at a specific hp.
Dyno runs, drag runs on a few vehicles do not provide enough load over extended time to really test the limits.

When companies liek Alpina test, its like BMW testing. The engine is just run like hell on a dyno for extended time, thoroughly heatsoaking every component for extended periods. Put a 335 on a dynapack with a PROceed and place it under constant full throttle load for a while and the results may be different that we are currently seeing.

Also take this with a grain of salt. Shivs products, assuming BMW motors have a weakness, probably wont affect most of the users. Unless you drive like a maniac, or are tracking the car, you will not put the extended full-throttle load on the engine required for this problem to manifest itself.
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      03-15-2007, 07:41 PM   #235
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I recently spoke with a friend close to this subject and you are correct. It is an issue of coolant flow in the block that makes itself more apparent in increased HP applications. It is more specific to cylinder 5, actually.

People can call this a design flaw, but in all practical purposes, it is not. The car is spec'ed for 300 crank HP, and should operate effectively in that range. More power= more heat= weak spots in the design are going to show themselves.

Unfortuneatly, Shiv's testing measures are not sufficient and cannot compare to internal BMW testing (basing this off of RD's post) Also, none of the "tuned" cars have been put under extended load conditions, to the best of my knowledge, and not all cars are going to fail right at a specific hp.
Dyno runs, drag runs on a few vehicles do not provide enough load over extended time to really test the limits.

When companies liek Alpina test, its like BMW testing. The engine is just run like hell on a dyno for extended time, thoroughly heatsoaking every component for extended periods. Put a 335 on a dynapack with a PROceed and place it under constant full throttle load for a while and the results may be different that we are currently seeing.

Also take this with a grain of salt. Shivs products, assuming BMW motors have a weakness, probably wont affect most of the users. Unless you drive like a maniac, or are tracking the car, you will not put the extended full-throttle load on the engine required for this problem to manifest itself.
Any engine can fail, its a fact of life. Obviously the more power you try to squeeze out of it, the more the shortcomings will become apparent. I am sure BMW tests their engines throughly, but look at the huge rod bearing issue in the S54. I am sure BMW tested this engine to all extremes, but it still happened. Who knows, you may see issues with the N54 down the road. Time will tell.
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      03-15-2007, 08:44 PM   #236
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Any engine can fail, its a fact of life.
Of course, the issue is that at a certain power level, one that can easily be obtained through software or a piggyback, the chance of failure greatly increases. All engines will fail at a certain output and stress, however, we can easily pass that stress level with a piggyback. Stressing an S54 to its breaking point requires alot more effort. (i.e. forced induction)

The engine is tested thoroughly, and it considered very reliable by BMW at 300hp output. At 360+, it is considered very unreliable by BMW engineers.

edit: let me qualify all this by saying that I am planning to get a PROceed when my car comes in this summer. If I do get a chance to track the 335, Ill turn off the PROceed and go around on "just" 300 horses.
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      03-15-2007, 08:53 PM   #237
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I recently spoke with a friend close to this subject and you are correct. It is an issue of coolant flow in the block that makes itself more apparent in increased HP applications. It is more specific to cylinder 5, actually.

People can call this a design flaw, but in all practical purposes, it is not. The car is spec'ed for 300 crank HP, and should operate effectively in that range. More power= more heat= weak spots in the design are going to show themselves.

Unfortuneatly, Shiv's testing measures are not sufficient and cannot compare to internal BMW testing (basing this off of RD's post) Also, none of the "tuned" cars have been put under extended load conditions, to the best of my knowledge, and not all cars are going to fail right at a specific hp.
Dyno runs, drag runs on a few vehicles do not provide enough load over extended time to really test the limits.

When companies liek Alpina test, its like BMW testing. The engine is just run like hell on a dyno for extended time, thoroughly heatsoaking every component for extended periods. Put a 335 on a dynapack with a PROceed and place it under constant full throttle load for a while and the results may be different that we are currently seeing.

Also take this with a grain of salt. Shivs products, assuming BMW motors have a weakness, probably wont affect most of the users. Unless you drive like a maniac, or are tracking the car, you will not put the extended full-throttle load on the engine required for this problem to manifest itself.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, according to RD sports previous post isn't the new Alpina right at the same power level the Procede (360ps) is and that is considered "safe" by BMW? The only reason I mention it (procede) is because that is the highest output for a tune I've seen yet.

Maybe I miss interpreted it but, that's what it looked like.
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      03-15-2007, 09:20 PM   #238
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Correct me if I'm wrong but, according to RD sports previous post isn't the new Alpina right at the same power level the Procede (360ps) is and that is considered "safe" by BMW? The only reason I mention it (procede) is because that is the highest output for a tune I've seen yet.

Maybe I miss interpreted it but, that's what it looked like.
Shiv's car made 355 whp and 405 ft-lbs of torque at the wheels. This is most likely about 400ps. But, it is close to Alpina levels. Alpina is about 20% over stock levels. Shiv's car is about 33% over stock levels. Hopefully the engine has that much margin built in. 30% in a regularly driven car shouldn't be a problem (fingers crossed...)

I would worry about the AA turbo M3 though. They push more than double the power of the factory motor. Things MUST break at that level (600+whp)
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      03-15-2007, 10:04 PM   #239
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Shiv's car made 355 whp and 405 ft-lbs of torque at the wheels. This is most likely about 400ps. But, it is close to Alpina levels. Alpina is about 20% over stock levels. Shiv's car is about 33% over stock levels. Hopefully the engine has that much margin built in. 30% in a regularly driven car shouldn't be a problem (fingers crossed...)

I would worry about the AA turbo M3 though. They push more than double the power of the factory motor. Things MUST break at that level (600+whp)
Didn't the Alpina use different pistons?

From Topspeed http://www.topspeed.com/cars/alpina/...o-ar28921.html

Quote:
Alpina took the engine from the 335i and feeds it with higher load pressure, high-strength pistons and newly co-coordinated electronics. The result is 360 hp and an increase of torque to 368 lbs-ft
Maybe they used lower compression? They did mention it is on in automatic.
I would like to know what they did to get the weight down to 3461.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/09/g...ngs-the-twist/

This also mentions Alpina is running 16psi of boost. Just about every Alpina B3 article I read mentioned Vishnu.
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Last edited by musc; 03-16-2007 at 12:47 AM.
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      03-15-2007, 10:05 PM   #240
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I'm not so sure its safe to directly correlate power output with safety margin. There are a number of ways to boost performance in a turbo car. I like to thing we tackled the safety issue from many different angles (fuel enrichment, timing gymnastics, prespool limits, etc,.) It's also worth noting that our tuning approach only has two requirements: To make power. And to do so safely. Things like tailpipe emissions and marketing (canibalization of other products) never came into play. And it is these issues that all but shackles BMW and other manufacturers to leaving a lot of power on the table. We're just not raising the boost here, ya know

Cheers,
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      03-15-2007, 10:43 PM   #241
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The home of the 335 that is faster than "the Worlds Fastest Documented 335"

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      03-16-2007, 08:06 AM   #242
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I would like to know what they did to get the weight down to 3461.
Just exhaust and lightweight forged wheels alone will get you ~75 lbs. So 3605 - 75 gets you 1/2 way there. Perhaps a few carbon fiber body parts? Or just some creative marketing? I know my <19 lb forged wheels alone made my car feel at least 150 lbs lighter.
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