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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > The Black Box* Must Read



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      03-10-2007, 08:37 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catm3 View Post
As long as YOU are happy with your purchase, then thats what should matter to you. Your car made some nice gains and and of course you should be enthusiastic about that.

On the other hand, don't expect everyone else to share your enthusiasm. Anytime anyone posts anything about a product, you are going to have those people for/against it. Most people will be skeptical at first Most on the forum have followed a product like the PROcede go through beta testing then to a final product over the past few months. It has repeatedly put down more power at a better price point than the black box, hence, not many were impressed with the info you stated. That's not to say the black box isn't a good product. Time will tell.

Competition is a good thing. I am sure more and more tuners, both reputable and not so reliable, will get in the game with their own 335i upgrades. Its just up to each individual to choose whats best for them.
+1.
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      03-10-2007, 08:45 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by radgator1 View Post
I only have one comment on RDSport. The have lots of experience and have been selling AM parts for BMW's for years and most of us know the story about what happend between Federico and Electodyne.

But on personal experience I had a much less that satisfactory dealing with Federico directly. I bought my e46 M3 from a friend of his, JM and paid a premium for AM parts including among many other things, an RD Sport silencer and X-Pipe. When I got the car the silencer was on it but not the mid pipe so JM tells me it wont be a problem, it was at RDSports shop and I would just get it later.

The seller was actually a cool guy, at least at first and drove to meet me to pick up the OEM brakes, suspension, etc and also hooked me up to get a good deal on some Kinesis wheels. But when it came to the midpipe he never got around to getting it for me from Federico and after a while never returned calls. So finally I started calling and E-mailing Federico directly since it was obvious JM wasn't going to help me or deliver the part that he listed on the car and charged me for.

Federico was super nice and smooth and charming as can be with the accent and all. He completely acknowledged that Jimmy had in fact paid for the X-pipe and he would send it to me but it would never show up. A month later I would call again and he would say it had been back ordered and they would ship it soon. Each and every time I offered to pay shipping and asked if he wanted my CC#, I also offered to pick-up at his Ontario warehouse or at his shop but he said he didn't have will-call.

Anyway, bottom line is I never got my Pipe, eventually sold the M3 and wrote it off as a lesson learned. I was surprised that the owner/head of a prominent company like RDSport would be so dishonest. Not saying anyone else would have a similar experience but obviously I would never buy another product from them. If someone from RDSport wants to give their side or especially if they want to send me my pipe that would be very welcomed.

After re-reading my post I think calling Federico dishonest was too strong of a statement. The truth is he really was not under obligation to send me the X-pipe since it was JM who I paid for it, and whom Federico sold it to. But after it became obvious that JM was ignoring my calls, Federico did acknowledge that it had been paid for and agreed to send it to me and I never got it.

For all I know maybe JM eventually picked it up or got a refund but all I know is I was the one left on the short end and I was disappointed he didn't step up after saying he would.

I can say the quality of the Silencer was excellent with great sound, super strong construction and great weight savings. From what I can tell The quality of RDSport products has always been excellent. I'll never know how good that X-pipe would have been but I'm guessing it would have made my M3 rasp louder than a chainsaw since even with the one stock resonator the damn things are raspy
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      03-10-2007, 09:00 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TQ View Post
Here in Australia I used the Xede to tune my own 335i. Rumour has it, that Vishnu dropped the Xede because he is either using a rebadged Haltec, or he figured he could make more money copying the Xede and making it himself.

It seems strange, to say the least, that they used the Xede for applications on the Japanese cars, which have more components to control, and now they feel that they need a different platform for the BMW.

The Xede guys are prepared to expand their unit capabilities if need be, so why didn't Vishnu take this route?

I think it is always important to hear the 2 sides of a story, instead of just buying the hipe coming from one of the parties involved.

So I guess no one is going to reply to this ????
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      03-10-2007, 09:07 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catm3 View Post
As long as YOU are happy with your purchase, then thats what should matter to you. Your car made some nice gains and and of course you should be enthusiastic about that.

Competition is a good thing. I am sure more and more tuners, both reputable and not so reliable, will get in the game with their own 335i upgrades. Its just up to each individual to choose whats best for them.

+2
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      03-10-2007, 09:10 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Prestige335i View Post
So I guess no one is going to reply to this ????
You'll have to search back through some old posts, but Shiv already stated why he decided to go with a different approach for the BMW. From what I gathered, the Xede was rather limited as far as adding additional features, hence, the change.
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      03-10-2007, 09:59 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TQ View Post
Here in Australia I used the Xede to tune my own 335i. Rumour has it, that Vishnu dropped the Xede because he is either using a rebadged Haltec, or he figured he could make more money copying the Xede and making it himself.
If you really must know, we dropped the Xede for a number of reason. Reasons that must be pretty well justified considering the 5 years we spent developing it with Chiptorque. In all fairness to Chiptorque, they make a good hardware. But it has it's limitations and shortcomings like everything else. In this particular case, it simply didn't meet our primary requirements.

For instance, in the BMW, we wanted to leave the XEDE powered on all the time for various diagnostic control reasons. However, after a week, we found that it would overhead and lead to hard starting issues. So we had to wire it up to switched power which was less than ideal. With the PROcede, there is no such overheating issues and we implemented it the way we wanted it to. That is just one example. But it's easy to verify.

Another issue was that the Xede required a more complicated firmware updating process. One that required having to give one of the pins constant 12 volts (to get the Xede into 'boot' mode) while cycling Xede power on/off/on. In the case of the BMW, where the ECU remains powered for some time after you turn the ignition off, this proved to be a problem. With the PROcede, we simply upload the new firmware file just like we would a tuning map. Again, easy to verify. Although I don't think any of the current bmw tuners using the Xede have had to do this just yet

Another shortcoming was that there were 4 different Xede units that were not interchangeable. One was meant to be used for voltage based maf sensors. Another for freq based MAF sensors. Another for inductive CAS pick-up. Another for hall effect CAS. With the PROcede, we made sure that the unit was universal. This was addressed at the basic design level, allowing us to develop one single product, not 4.

Another issue was that we ran out of digital inputs/outputs. While, I'm sure this will eventually be addressed with a hardware revision, the current Xede hardware could never control VANOS or defeat speed limiters. You tell me if those are desired features. I could go on but I don't think it's entirely necessary, is it?

Quote:
It seems strange, to say the least, that they used the Xede for applications on the Japanese cars, which have more components to control, and now they feel that they need a different platform for the BMW.
We no longer use the Xede for our japanese car applications. In fact, we recommending it for Subarus over a year ago due to hardware issues. For EVOs, we stopped selling it months ago since it didn't, and never would, have the ability to control variable valve timing. There were plenty of other reasons that really don't belong anywhere on this forum. But to suggest that something sounds strange just means that you aren't aware of the facts.

Quote:
The Xede guys are prepared to expand their unit capabilities if need be, so why didn't Vishnu take this route?
Because we felt we could come up with a product that better met our set of requirements. I think this is pretty reasonable, no?

Quote:
I think it is always important to hear the 2 sides of a story, instead of just buying the hipe coming from one of the parties involved.
Hype?

Shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 03-10-2007 at 10:30 PM.
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      03-11-2007, 02:05 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
For instance, in the BMW, we wanted to leave the XEDE powered on all the time for various diagnostic control reasons.
Shiv
I am not sure this is really pertinent to the needs of the end user.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Another issue was that the Xede required a more complicated firmware updating process. One that required having to give one of the pins constant 12 volts (to get the Xede into 'boot' mode) while cycling Xede power on/off/on. In the case of the BMW, where the ECU remains powered for some time after you turn the ignition off, this proved to be a problem.
Shiv
Again, as and user, who cares? Do you consider how easy it is to upgrade the BIOS when you buy a computer? If the unit gets the job done as is, who cares about this techno mumbo-jumbo? Does the Xede prevent you from upgrading its firmware? Is it just a little more complicated? How many times, in the average 30 month ownership of any given car, am I going to face this problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Another shortcoming was that there were 4 different Xede units that were not interchangeable. One was meant to be used for voltage based maf sensors. Another for freq based MAF sensors. Another for inductive CAS pick-up. Another for hall effect CAS. With the PROcede, we made sure that the unit was universal. This was addressed at the basic design level, allowing us to develop one single product, not 4.
Shiv
One more time, this is a "Vishnu-only" issue. This is a BMW E90 forum and there is one Xede for the BMW. I am not really concerned on your company's isues when it comes to optimising inventory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Another issue was that we ran out of digital inputs/outputs. While, I'm sure this will eventually be addressed with a hardware revision, the current Xede hardware could never control VANOS or defeat speed limiters. You tell me if those are desired features. I could go on but I don't think it's entirely necessary, is it?
Shiv
Frankly, the whole concept of fooling the DME by conditioning the input signals has its limitations and there is a fine line beyond which you are going to have severe countereffects. The algorythm that controls the VANOS relies on many different signals, and I seriously doubt that any of the current "interceptor boxes", including the PROceed has enough channels to do the job the way Siemens intends it to be done.

A piggiback unit is really a quick and dirty (i.e. cheap) solution to get good horsepower increase for little money. Does it work? Absolutely. Technically sound? Hardly. If you are setting out to manipulate anything more than timing, bost and, possibly, rev limiter, then the proper way to do it is to get into the Siemes DME and rewrite the data maps, allow it to read the actual voltages from all the sensors, and condition the "output signal" via reprogramming.
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      03-11-2007, 02:50 AM   #74
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You are missing something on every single point you are trying to make. See below:

Quote:
I am not sure this is really pertinent to the needs of the end user.
It is because the factory ECU does random sensor checks even with the car is powered off. Keeping the Xede or PROcede powered on all the time means that the necessary signals can be adjusted all the time with no chance of miscalibration.


Quote:
Again, as and user, who cares? Do you consider how easy it is to upgrade the BIOS when you buy a computer? If the unit gets the job done as is, who cares about this techno mumbo-jumbo? Does the Xede prevent you from upgrading its firmware? Is it just a little more complicated? How many times, in the average 30 month ownership of any given car, am I going to face this problem?
Every time a new feature is implemented, a few firmware file needs to be updated. Go to our vendor forum on www.evolutionm.net and see just how often Xede users had to update firmware in the last 3 years. At the beginning of the product live cycle (read: now), it's not uncommon for a new feature to be released 3 or 4 times per year.

Quote:
One more time, this is a "Vishnu-only" issue. This is a BMW E90 forum and there is one Xede for the BMW. I am not really concerned on your company's isues when it comes to optimising inventory.
Not really. Ever consider the possibility of selling your car and putting your piggyback computer on something else. Or perhaps selling it to someone else? Do you know how many times I've been asked by an EVO owner if they can put their Xede on their new 335, Porsche, etc,.? It has very little to do with inventory issues and a lot more to do with used product value/utility.


Quote:
Frankly, the whole concept of fooling the DME by conditioning the input signals has its limitations and there is a fine line beyond which you are going to have severe countereffects. The algorythm that controls the VANOS relies on many different signals, and I seriously doubt that any of the current "interceptor boxes", including the PROceed has enough channels to do the job the way Siemens intends it to be done.
What you completely fail to understand how the PROcede will control VANOS. This is because you are looking at the situation from the wrong perspective. You see, the factory computer will still drive the VANOS system. But what the PROcede will do is change the reference point for the cam position sensors. Nifty huh?

Quote:
A piggiback unit is really a quick and dirty (i.e. cheap) solution to get good horsepower increase for little money. Does it work? Absolutely. Technically sound? Hardly. If you are setting out to manipulate anything more than timing, bost and, possibly, rev limiter, then the proper way to do it is to get into the Siemes DME and rewrite the data maps, allow it to read the actual voltages from all the sensors, and condition the "output signal" via reprogramming.
This is your opinion and that is pefectly cool. Just try to get a better understanding of the facts before you take such a firm stance and "call out" someone.

Regards,
shiv
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      03-11-2007, 05:57 AM   #75
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Oh, dang, Shiv pwned TQ Sorry TQ, but I think Shiv may know a bit more than you in regards to tunning... so before you try dissing someone (or more importantly, a Company) please get all your facts/info correct

BTW, Shiv didn't even have to justify/explain himself to you, but he did so, in order to show BMW owners why he decided to ditch the Xede and go w/ the ProCede instead. GOOD INFO Now I know how Shiv removed the speed limiter once he switched to ProCede, haha

Shiv, lol, but I'm really looking forward to AA's results... even though they may also be using the Xede =/

But in the end, it all comes down to price, power, reliability, and customer service
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      03-11-2007, 06:50 AM   #76
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Warning....Long answer below!


I tell you what, they call me the old bloke at XEDE and it takes me a while to jump into comment on forums, but anyway.....
There’s been a lot of comment on this forum about how the PROcede was the newest bestest thing from Vishnu since the XEDE.
(Personally, I like how they kept the capitalisation from the XEDE brand and the "cede" sound in the name)
I usually just sit by and watch things like this unfold and let my products' results (through various tuners) speak for themselves but here is where it has to stop. I can’t let this pass without my 2cents worth. Lets see if I can address these in order…

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
If you really must know, we dropped the Xede for a number of reason. Reasons that must be pretty well justified considering the 5 years we spent developing it with Chiptorque. In all fairness to Chiptorque, they make a good hardware. But it has it's limitations and shortcomings like everything else. In this particular case, it simply didn't meet our primary requirements.
I don’t propose to know what Vishnu’s primary requirements are. The Vishnu PROcede is, unless I'm very, very mistaken (and I have been doing this for more than a few years now) a Haltech Interceptor. The Interceptor was made by Haltech a couple of years after we made the XEDE and "hello" to Scotty and the boys at Haltech in Sydney Australia, whom I know well. When we heard of their Interceptor's impending manufacture, we suggested they use a different box/case so it didn't look like an XEDE but, that's old news now anyway. I'm sure the PROcede has a nice new sticker on the front that says PROcede etc etc. The editing/uploading software will say PROcede but, no doubt will be licenced to a Sydney company.
Look, as of Dec 31 2006, Vishnu ceased to have sole US distribution rights to the XEDE product. That was a business decision for us at ChipTorque who design and manufacture the XEDE. I can accept a business decision by Vishnu about a change of brand/supplier related to that. That is, as others have said all over this forum, just good business competition. When Shiv (who should know better) wants to parade any technical shortcoming in our product, you'll get me to bite. :mad: :mad:

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
For instance, in the BMW, we wanted to leave the XEDE powered on all the time for various diagnostic control reasons. However, after a week, we found that it would overhead and lead to hard starting issues. So we had to wire it up to switched power which was less than ideal. With the PROcede, there is no such overheating issues and we implemented it the way we wanted it to. That is just one example. But it's easy to verify.
I assume you meant overheat??
The XEDE is not designed to be left on for more than 170hours continuiously, nor would I suggest that any current drawing device (PROcede or any other) be left on when the vehicle has powered down. Due diligence in R&D of the 335i ECU will provide the correct method of interfacing with it, rather than leaving a unit powered up all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Another issue was that the Xede required a more complicated firmware updating process. One that required having to give one of the pins constant 12 volts (to get the Xede into 'boot' mode) while cycling Xede power on/off/on. In the case of the BMW, where the ECU remains powered for some time after you turn the ignition off, this proved to be a problem. With the PROcede, we simply upload the new firmware file just like we would a tuning map. Again, easy to verify. Although I don't think any of the current bmw tuners using the Xede have had to do this just yet
Yes, we do. It’s that way for reliability. Shiv, you haven’t been in the automotive industry for the last 24 years. – It’s for protection against accidental error by a tuner or end user with the adjustment software. Laptops fall off the seat, power supplies go flat, dare I say it, Microsoft Operating Systems could even hang in mid operation!!! Design the protection into the system - ME101.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Another shortcoming was that there were 4 different Xede units that were not interchangeable. One was meant to be used for voltage based maf sensors. Another for freq based MAF sensors. Another for inductive CAS pick-up. Another for hall effect CAS. With the PROcede, we made sure that the unit was universal. This was addressed at the basic design level, allowing us to develop one single product, not 4.
So you show me a BMW owner who’d be happy with Honda or Toyota parts in his car…. The right unit for the right application – reliability over time and sustained durabilty not just when you first test it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Another issue was that we ran out of digital inputs/outputs. While, I'm sure this will eventually be addressed with a hardware revision, the current Xede hardware could never control VANOS or defeat speed limiters. You tell me if those are desired features. I could go on but I don't think it's entirely necessary, is it?
Now here’s where I lose it…..

The 335i XEDE has at any one time - 2 potential Crank/VANOS In/Out Channels, 3 Analogue In/Out Channels, 1 Frequency In and 2 Additional High Current Drive outputs for Wastegate (Boost) Control or Methanol injection etc.
- AND - An additional input for Dual Map banks - for Race Gas and Normal Gas or anything else you might want Dual maps for as standard. It already works! You don't need to wait for some vapourware remote switch method. It's in the standard XEDE!
After that, there's special features that we can implement just for BMW customers if needed.

I even went to the Vishnu PROcede website to see if I was missing something. I looked in their installation video, but no, they're still only using 1 Crank signal In/Out, 1 Analogue signal In/Out and 1 Current drive signal. Was that 2 channels and a driver???
Opps, there's power and ground as well that’s 2 more pins and I guess 3 for comms like an XEDE does (Sorry, my Bad! - Nice Video though).
I had made no mistake, the PROcede install instruction and wiring harness show clearly, it is using a half of the pins in an XEDE. IMHO – half of what an XEDE can do standing on it's head. At least if there really is a plan to add any other features to the PROcede, tell these good people that they’ll have to get a new harness etc. etc. to go with any new feature that’s added.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Because we felt we could come up with a product that better met our set of requirements. I think this is pretty reasonable, no?



Hype?

Shiv
We'll see what happens on here with other tuners starting to use the XEDE product in this wonderful car. There are many outstanding tuners in this world, let alone on this forum. I'm not suggesting Shiv's tuning is poor, far from it!!! But DO NOT blame a commercial business decision on product suitability. That's the old story of a poor tradesperson blaming their tools. IMHO, Keeping you all enthusiastic on the forums as he develops products and making you wait an eternity to deliver anything - Just really good marketing if you ask me.

Business is business but don’t blame the XEDE.


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      03-11-2007, 06:55 AM   #77
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TQ has a total of 3 posts. I disagreed with all of his points. Any tech savvy person will pay attention to the new product they've purchased and readily accept updates when available.
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      03-11-2007, 07:11 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TQ View Post
Frankly, the whole concept of fooling the DME by conditioning the input signals has its limitations and there is a fine line beyond which you are going to have severe countereffects. The algorythm that controls the VANOS relies on many different signals, and I seriously doubt that any of the current "interceptor boxes", including the PROceed has enough channels to do the job the way Siemens intends it to be done.

A piggiback unit is really a quick and dirty (i.e. cheap) solution to get good horsepower increase for little money. Does it work? Absolutely. Technically sound? Hardly. If you are setting out to manipulate anything more than timing, bost and, possibly, rev limiter, then the proper way to do it is to get into the Siemes DME and rewrite the data maps, allow it to read the actual voltages from all the sensors, and condition the "output signal" via reprogramming.
While I appreciate your sentiment, at ChipTorque we've done an awful lot of factory management reprogramming over the years, (we might even consider investigating a DME reflash if it was really warranted some time in the future). [A DME is the factory BMW ECU (engine computer) for those who haven't been in BMW reprogramming before now]
The piggy-back method is functional and easy to install/remove and will provide the best value for money for the largest number of BMW drivers. If it becomes apparent that there really is some tangible value in adjusting the VANOS on the 335i, I'm sure you'll be able to find a high quality piggy-back unit that will do it appropriately. I'd suggest an XEDE (especially since you have one already.)

Cheers
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      03-11-2007, 08:14 AM   #79
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First the ringers showed up. Thread was or became a vehicle to bait Shiv into responding. Then the big gun decloaks and opens fire. Thread is now a full-bore pissing contest between two former business buddies. Other than providing the same entertainment value as a train wreck, most of us couldn't care less which box is used - as long as it works.

If, as you say, there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the two boxes, the question is "what is the real reason Shiv dumped your product and is classing it as second rate?" Did you go up on your prices? Did you say something about his mama? Or worse yet, did you tell him he couldn't tune his way out of a wet paper bag? Only you and Shiv know the real reason. You can either let us in on it or you and Shiv can continue with your pissing contest. The members and lurkers will at least get what we get from most news channels: Heavy entertainment value with litte usable news.
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      03-11-2007, 08:20 AM   #80
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Quote:
First the ringers showed up. Thread was or became a vehicle to bait Shiv into responding. Then the big gun decloaks and opens fire.
+1. pathetic.
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      03-11-2007, 08:51 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOK11atXEDE View Post
WThe XEDE is not designed to be left on for more than 170hours continuiously
Saying that a device cant be "left on" seems like a design flaw to me... Every peice of computer equiptment i own is left on 24/7.

What happens if you leave it on for too long? It starts wigging out and screws up your engine?
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      03-11-2007, 09:07 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOK11atXEDE View Post


We'll see what happens on here with other tuners starting to use the XEDE product in this wonderful car.



Lachlan Riddel
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www.chiptorque.com
www.xede.com.au

This thread is about another tuner using an Xede-like device and getting a lil more then half the HP & TQ gains that Shiv gets.

So, we HAVE seen "what happens on here with other tuners starting to use the XEDE product in this wonderful car. "
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      03-11-2007, 10:51 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by RiXst3r View Post
Saying that a device cant be "left on" seems like a design flaw to me... Every peice of computer equiptment i own is left on 24/7.
Don't try that on your car. you run out of both gas and battery before 24h...
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      03-11-2007, 10:57 AM   #84
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This is more informative than the typical threads here. Good to finally discuss about piggy back upgrade paths, such as how to use their inputs and if altering vanos is the way to go. Keep the info flowing! Thanks!
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      03-11-2007, 11:38 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkevinl View Post
TQ has a total of 3 posts. I disagreed with all of his points. Any tech savvy person will pay attention to the new product they've purchased and readily accept updates when available.
You didn't bother to read my post, as you are too consumed with defending your guru's point of view. I think the Xede guy explained it best. Read his post.

So, after all this, is the PROceed just a rebadged Haltech Interceptor? Not that it really matters, but shouldn't we expect more transparency from our vendors if they are, indeed, using someone else's platform? Do I detect a pattern of behaviour?
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      03-11-2007, 11:50 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnj View Post
Don't try that on your car. you run out of both gas and battery before 24h...
you have never done a 100+ hour road trip before?
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      03-11-2007, 11:56 AM   #87
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http://www.haltech.com/interceptor.htm
sells for ~ $845 USD
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      03-11-2007, 12:15 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay@ATP View Post
This thread is about another tuner using an Xede-like device and getting a lil more then half the HP & TQ gains that Shiv gets.

So, we HAVE seen "what happens on here with other tuners starting to use the XEDE product in this wonderful car. "
+1 couldnt have said it better myself!!!!

ALL u new posters (TQ)(who probaly is who he says) can talk all the shit u want against shiv but who still stands on TOP
hmmmmm Your lucky shiv even responded!! Im sure you had many phone conversations of his requests and u obviusly couldnt deliver what he wanted!
So he dumped your product and is know working with Scotty!! (your competitiion)
GET OVER IT.

SO WHAT IF its licsenced to a sydney company! like he cant make his own software? Oh wait Im pretty sure he already DID!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiXst3r View Post
NICE find bud! although they dont show a bmw application
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