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      03-13-2007, 01:25 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveff4 View Post
Huh? Do you really think this stuff isn't basically open-source once it gets out? And really, as end-users, this is the beauty of this type of aftermarket tuning. Once Shiv has "finished" development on the 335i, the users can continue developing the maps. That's how it works.

Exactly

(For the guys that continually miss the point) That statement made by me is about the point that steveff4 made that these units (doesn't matter which one) are programmable.

For example, Active Auto has their own resources and brain(s) to see what kind of maps they would like to create and are not necessarily 'stealing' someone else's maps because they are using a like product.

On a different note, glad to see that Active decided to come in on this thread and basically say that they are using the 'Xede'. Best Regards to you guys to tuning this box and all your endeavors.
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      03-13-2007, 01:32 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBoler View Post
You are like a woman, always missing the point.

Where in my reply to you does anything have to do with the product? Are you so emotionally charged that you are unable to differenciate between the product and myself?
Sam, you have a link to the "Black Box" in your sig. I don't know if you're associated with the folks the market that product or not, but it kind of looks that way.
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      03-13-2007, 01:33 PM   #179
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I am unable to find how you came to the conclusion that AA is using the XEDE. I think you jumped the gun on that one.
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      03-13-2007, 01:40 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiXst3r View Post
SamBoler,

I am not trying to be rude, but it would seem that you have something to gain by advertising for this "Black Box", considering you have it plastered all over your sig, and your first post sounds like an infomercial...

no offense, just telling you why some people might be attacking you.
If I was you, I would just enjoy your car, and your new found extra horses, and forget about trying to please everyone.

You dont have to "give up", but you also dont need to feel like you have to justify your purchase to yourself, or anyone. Its your car, its your money, its your choice. And everyone should respect your decision.

RiXst3r,

Not taking you to be rude at all Honesty and being straight-forward is honorable.

In regards to my sig, at first it was just text like KW+Rogue but when people started bashing me (my decision to purchase) and it became unrelated to the product, that is when I added the thread url.

Definately enjoying my car Not trying to please anyone. Just not going to take this laying down.

Will resume to reading the boards with occasional posts. As you can see that I have been a member for some time and didn't just sign on.

Don't need to justify/prove anything to myself/anyone. Decided to go a different route, works for me

There are few that are respecting my decision and they get very respectful replies. Others that are just instigating... get an entirely different reply

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      03-13-2007, 01:43 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiXst3r View Post
I am unable to find how you came to the conclusion that AA is using the XEDE. I think you jumped the gun on that one.
They said 'hello' to the Xede people.

I said 'basically saying' which is inconclusive yet suggestive as to what Active basically did.
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      03-13-2007, 01:47 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
Sam, you have a link to the "Black Box" in your sig. I don't know if you're associated with the folks the market that product or not, but it kind of looks that way.
That point is understood I replied to that above.

Quote:
In regards to my sig, at first it was just text like KW+Rogue but when people started bashing me (my decision to purchase) and it became unrelated to the product, that is when I added the thread url.
Will take it off once something new comes (hopefully it won't be so controversial) or if this becomes civil and
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      03-13-2007, 01:47 PM   #183
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Have a good day guys!! Off to go about my day
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      03-13-2007, 02:15 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by steveff4 View Post
Huh? Do you really think this stuff isn't basically open-source once it gets out? And really, as end-users, this is the beauty of this type of aftermarket tuning. Once Shiv has "finished" development on the 335i, the users can continue developing the maps. That's how it works.
Originally Posted by WilyB

The part I dislike is the apparent attempts by the XEDE community to access Shiv’s data and maps, either through his employees or, worse, through the beta testers.

I believe I either misunderstood why the XEDE people are calling Shiv's beta testers, in which case please accept my apologies, or you skipped Ethics 101.

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      03-13-2007, 02:28 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilyB View Post
Originally Posted by WilyB

The part I dislike is the apparent attempts by the XEDE community to access Shiv’s data and maps, either through his employees or, worse, through the beta testers.

I believed I either misunderstood why the XEDE people are calling Shiv's beta testers, in which case please accept my apologies, or you skipped Ethics 101.

Just a correction, I haven't heard of the Xede guys (chiptorque) soliciting my customers for info. Instead, they just solicited my employees via email after I balked at providing the info they requested.

It was a long time BMW tuner that was trying to coax our beta customers into providing their Xedes for map uploading. To tell the truth, I don't really have any problem with that since our Xede solution is several steps behind what we are doing with the PROcede. This is supported by those who have made the switch and reported their impressions.

There is really no reason to cry foul or claim unethical behavior. Most of the products in the aftermarket (or any market for that matter) are either direct rip offs or based upon other products. I never owned the Xede. I just developed it for the BMW while we has a exclusive distribution and development agreement with Chiptorque. Now, there is nothing keeping others from adopting it and taking up where we left off. It's all good

Regards,
Shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 03-13-2007 at 03:32 PM.
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      03-13-2007, 02:41 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
There is really no reason to cry foul or claim unethical behavior. Most of the products in the aftermarket (or any market for that matter) are either direct rip offs or based upon other products. I never owned the Xede. I just developed it for the BMW. There is nothing keeping others from adopting it and taking up where we left off. It's all good
Do you own the PROcede? (just wondering if we will see other tuners using the same box as you, ever.)

Last edited by RiXst3r; 03-13-2007 at 03:48 PM.
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      03-13-2007, 03:24 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
There is really no reason to cry foul or claim unethical behavior. Most of the products in the aftermarket (or any market for that matter) are either direct rip offs or based upon other products. I never owned the Xede. I just developed it for the BMW. There is nothing keeping others from adopting it and taking up where we left off. It's all good
Thanks for the clarification.
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      03-13-2007, 04:13 PM   #188
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Sam,

Take a breath man. Its okay! You bought the black box and you are happy. We get it. No need to defend your decision over and over again. Most of us don't think you made a good decision, and that's okay too.

Now, if I could get one wish today (which I am sure I won't), I would like to hear more discussion about the technical difference between the Procede and its competition. For example, Shiv says the XEDE does not control VANOS. The XEDE guy (forgot his name and too lazy to try to find his last post), says that it does. Is there anyway to get to the bottom of this or do we just have to choose to believe one guy over the other. Shiv also said the XEDE does not do other things and the XEDE guy said it does.

If I have to choose between people and not facts, then I will choose Shiv, but that is not informative to any of us.
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      03-13-2007, 04:19 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williamf View Post
Sam,

Take a breath man. Its okay! You bought the black box and you are happy. We get it. No need to defend your decision over and over again. Most of us don't think you made a good decision, and that's okay too.

Now, if I could get one wish today (which I am sure I won't), I would like to hear more discussion about the technical difference between the Procede and its competition. For example, Shiv says the XEDE does not control VANOS. The XEDE guy (forgot his name and too lazy to try to find his last post), says that it does. Is there anyway to get to the bottom of this or do we just have to choose to believe one guy over the other. Shiv also said the XEDE does not do other things and the XEDE guy said it does.

If I have to choose between people and not facts, then I will choose Shiv, but that is not informative to any of us.
The XEDE guy is LOK11atXEDE, a ChipTorque Technical Director, and his first post was this thread: XEDE - An Update from the Manufacturer

In that post he lists the VANOS stuff and other features as "in the pipeline" developments.
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      03-13-2007, 04:22 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williamf View Post
Sam,

Take a breath man. Its okay! You bought the black box and you are happy. We get it. No need to defend your decision over and over again. Most of us don't think you made a good decision, and that's okay too.

Now, if I could get one wish today (which I am sure I won't), I would like to hear more discussion about the technical difference between the Procede and its competition. For example, Shiv says the XEDE does not control VANOS. The XEDE guy (forgot his name and too lazy to try to find his last post), says that it does. Is there anyway to get to the bottom of this or do we just have to choose to believe one guy over the other. Shiv also said the XEDE does not do other things and the XEDE guy said it does.

If I have to choose between people and not facts, then I will choose Shiv, but that is not informative to any of us.
I think it was posted awhile back that the the Xede was being upgraded to have more features than the orginal Xede Shiv was doing his beta testing with.

EDIT: See above. I was too slow.
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      03-13-2007, 05:12 PM   #191
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Quote:
I think it was posted awhile back that the the Xede was being upgraded to have more features than the orginal Xede Shiv was doing his beta testing with.
I don't believe the Xede can control VANOS. Or adjust speed limits. Or is USB compatible. The beta testing we did on the 335i was with a production Xede. The only thing 'beta' about it was the implementation in the 335i which required some things had never implemented before.

The new features that Lachlan was referring to would supposedly be implemented in a brand new Xede that I can only assume is under development. This means completely new hardware (new box, new harness, etc,.). Unless I'm mistaken, the current Xede hardware has 1 pair of digital input/output suitable for ignition advance or camshaft timing control or road speed input. The PROcede has 4 pairs.
-shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 03-13-2007 at 08:53 PM.
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      03-13-2007, 05:25 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjaneer View Post
The XEDE guy is LOK11atXEDE, a ChipTorque Technical Director, and his first post was this thread: XEDE - An Update from the Manufacturer

In that post he lists the VANOS stuff and other features as "in the pipeline" developments.
Thanks guys. I appreciate the info. I remember this thread now, but at the time it did not all gel. Was the XEDE recently improved? Lok11atXEDE said they were working on a whole host of improvements, but have they debuted yet? If so, this begs the question why Vishnu switched to the Procede. Surely, Shiv would have known that these improvements were emanate!!? I am sure some will say that Shiv had other motives for switching products (e.g., no longer being the exclusive U.S. distributor), but after meeting Shiv and speaking to him on multiple occasions, he just does not strike me as the type of guy that would make such a decision, unless he truly believed the Procede is an improvement over the XEDE or its near future incarnation. More dialogue on this topic from Shiv and Lok11atXEDE (or any other competent tuner) would be very interesting.

Also, more discussion on the pros and con of Piggyback devices in general would be helpful. I am not tuner or an expert by any means, but if a Piggyback intercepts a signal and it fools the ECU, then how is this solution any worse than reprogramming or replacing the stock ECU. It seems to me a properly implement Piggyback would work just as well.
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      03-13-2007, 05:39 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiXst3r View Post
Do you own the PROcede? (just wondering if we will see other tuners using the same box as you, ever.)


Not sure it matters much, but there was a long period of time many folks assumed Xede was yours. So do you own Procede?
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      03-13-2007, 05:48 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
The Xede cannot control VANOS. Or adjust speed limits. Or is USB compatible. The beta testing we did on the 335i was with a production Xede. The only thing 'beta' about it was the implementation in the 335i which required some things had never implemented before.

The new features that Lachlan was referring to would supposedly be implemented in a brand new Xede that I can only assume is under development. This means completely new hardware (new box, new harness, etc,.). Unless I'm mistaken, the current Xede hardware has 1 pair of digital input/output suitable for ignition advance or camshaft timing control or road speed input. The PROcede has 4 pairs.
-shiv
Thats what I meant, as in upgrading to a new unit with the additional features. I highly doubt that you are mistaken
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      03-13-2007, 07:06 PM   #195
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Just read this thread, thought I'd throw in my 2c.

(1c) Out of the gate first, Shiv's product is the most well understood performance enhancement for the 335i primarily due to his efforts to educate the customer. No other tuner has done publically what he has done in these forums and in travelling the country tuning people's cars and that's why Shiv enjoys the following he does.

(2c) Other tuners coming "later" into this market certainly don't have to follow in Shiv's footsteps but need to distinguish their product from what Shiv has already put out. For example, if you are offering a more expensive product with LESS perfomance, be prepared to take the heat (or even be laughed at). But if you are offering a less expensive product with less performance, then you have a valid reason to be in the marketplace. That's assuming that your product does not compromise reliability.

Anyway, "trust" is hard to build with customers and this is especially true in the auto performance biz. And trust is earned by "being there" and answering the customer's questions for the long haul and in great detail. And that's where Shiv earns the grade in my book.
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      03-13-2007, 08:02 PM   #196
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I've got to say I see a lot of established BMW tuners being not too happy about the Procede. No offense here (especially since I'm new to the BMW world) but, it really seems most BMW specific tuners really take it to your *#% with the pricing of products that don't usually make any large gains.

I mean look at Dinan. Their stuff is nice but, it's not this amazing piece that no one else could ever duplicate especially for the price. Sure they've got a warranty but, if the stuff is well engineered you shouldn't need it.

$15,000 supercharger kits. Why? Is supercharging a BMW THAT much different than SC'ing any other car?

The "Black Box" why not put as good of a tune as you could in it right off the bat knowing you are going to have people comparing it to the existing product that is cheaper. Probably so ,you can squeeze a little more out the consumer when you launch your new and improved map. In the mean time just plant the seed of doubt that the existing competitors product might be "unsafe" because it make more power.

and my favorite... the $2,500 ECU reflash. You've got to be kidding me. For that price it should be a user definable replacement ECU not just a reflash.

I just really feel the established BMW tuning community isn't used to giving the consumer so much for so little as they can with the 335i. It's the first BMW I've ever seen where it is relatively easy to make some serious HP for a reasonable amount of money.

Shiv comes from us broke outspoken Mitsubishi and Subaru owners who want to go as fast as possible as cheap as possible for the most part and cry like little girls when we feel the pricing is too high, the parts don't perform as well as someone else's or we could do it ourselves. Given the number of familiar faces I see migrating to the 335 from the Evo boards it looks like more vendors may have to start adopting his practices.

but I could be wrong.
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      03-13-2007, 08:19 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by hotrod2448 View Post
I've got to say I see a lot of established BMW tuners being not too happy about the Procede. No offense here (especially since I'm new to the BMW world) but, it really seems most BMW specific tuners really take it to your *#% with the pricing of products that don't usually make any large gains.

I mean look at Dinan. Their stuff is nice but, it's not this amazing piece that no one else could ever duplicate especially for the price. Sure they've got a warranty but, if the stuff is well engineered you shouldn't need it.

$15,000 supercharger kits. Why? Is supercharging a BMW THAT much different than SC'ing any other car?

The "Black Box" why not put as good of a tune as you could in it right off the bat knowing you are going to have people comparing it to the existing product that is cheaper. Probably so ,you can squeeze a little more out the consumer when you launch your new and improved map. In the mean time just plant the seed of doubt that the existing competitors product might be "unsafe" because it make more power.

and my favorite... the $2,500 ECU reflash. You've got to be kidding me. For that price it should be a user definable replacement ECU not just a reflash.

I just really feel the established BMW tuning community isn't used to giving the consumer so much for so little as they can with the 335i. It's the first BMW I've ever seen where it is relatively easy to make some serious HP for a reasonable amount of money.

Shiv comes from us broke outspoken Mitsubishi and Subaru owners who want to go as fast as possible as cheap as possible for the most part and cry like little girls when we feel the pricing is too high, the parts don't perform as well as someone elses or we could do it ourselves.

but I could be wrong.
I agree with you regarding the pricing of turbo and SC kits. Thats why I did very little to my M3. THe gains vs cost ratio was crazy. But then again, when there are only so many tuners putting out the items, they set the market, charge what they want. People are are still buying them. The explanation I have seen regarding pricing was the time/cost of R&D. Maybe that is the case.

I think the PROcede price is extremely fair. I'd paid 2-3x that if could buy an item like that for an M3 and plug it in for those kind of gains. The Turner flash is ridiculously priced, I agree. If anything, you'd figure the flash would be cheaper than a PROcede considering there is no hardware involved. Hopefully AA will have a cost effective solution available soon. I am sure their gains will be impressive as always.

I guess you have to pay to play, and BMWs just aren't cheap. I am just used to picking up a set of heads at a swap meet and porting them myself with a Dremel.
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      03-13-2007, 08:25 PM   #198
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The explanation I have seen regarding pricing was the time/cost of R&D. Maybe that is the case.
Can there really be that much more R&D in a BMW FI system than any other car?

I do a fair bit of R&D work (racing not street cars) myself and I can't see it being that much more involved. It's just the status quo for the BMW market.
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