E90Post
 


PYSPEED
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK Technical Forum > BMW AG checking for tuned vehicles



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-05-2011, 11:44 AM   #1
wayne71
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: May 2009
Location: UK

Posts: 381
iTrader: (0)

BMW AG checking for tuned vehicles

Just a heads up for people. Last week my car went in for warranty work and initially I was told it wasn't covered due to my car being flagged as 'tuned' on their system. It has only been in once before (under my ownership) and on that occasion it wasn't flagged as tuned.

On both occasions the car went in with the original map.

Obviously as my car wasn't tuned I kicked up a fuss and the warranty work was done.

However I have received an email from BMW UK

An extract

"A system is being developed to identify vehicles which have had non approved performance chips fitted, as this may have contributed to the failure of genuine BMW components on the vehicle.

This system is in development within BMW AG. The BMW Dealer Network are aware of this issue and that the indicator is appearing on a number of unaffected vehicles."

It seems that along with finding tuned vehicles they are also adding these flags to unaffected vehicles in error.

These tuned cars are not being found by the dealers over here it seems that techs in Germany are reviewing diagnostic information that gets uploaded to their database when you take your car into a dealer.

I'm not sure if its old news or not but thought it was worth mentioning.
wayne71 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 01:11 PM   #2
mv57
First Lieutenant
 
mv57's Avatar
 
Drives: E92
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: London

Posts: 381
iTrader: (0)

Still good to know. It may well impact my decission before the extended warrantee expires.
__________________
E92 320d M Sport, titanium silver, auto,

E9X Picture game / 5 MPH / double bhp / The Beatles zebra crossing / Gordon Ramsays restaurant / Michelin star /
mv57 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 01:35 PM   #3
atariboy
Second Lieutenant
 
atariboy's Avatar
 
Drives: E93 33I M-Sport Dec'11
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Swindon, UK

Posts: 261
iTrader: (0)

Sounds like 'Big Brother' to me
atariboy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 01:44 PM   #4
rs939
Private
 
Drives: BMW E90 325d with Bluefin
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Northampton

Posts: 95
iTrader: (0)

Most of the tuners will find another way of hiding the map, Some are better than others we had the same on the Focus ST they released an update to knock out the OBD port so you could flash tune, The way around that was found with in 2 days.

It's worth remembering this when they question you at the dealers, In the past I have taken remapped cars back to the dealers and nothing was said, clear BMW are trying to get clever and some how track remapped cars.
__________________
For Sale 2008 (08) BMW E90 4DR 325D M-Sport Silver, Xenons,Bluetooth,USB PM if interested.
rs939 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 02:08 PM   #5
zltm089
Major General
 
zltm089's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i SE Coupe Space Grey
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: LONDON

Posts: 7,365
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2006 BMW 335i  [5.00]
Thanks for the heads up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
__________________

Current Car: E92 335i SE Dream Cars: AMG SL65 Black,GallardoSuperleggera, GTR 2012, Agera R, F430 Scuderia, DBS, EVO X FQ400, Lexus LFA, F10 M5, M4, GT3 RS4.0, Ferrari 458, Ferrari F12, R8 V10 plus, Jaguar F Type V8, Lamborghini LP700-4 Aventador, Chevrolet Camaro ZL1, C63 AMG Coupe Black, Vanquish 2012, Laferrari, GT3 991, McLaren 650s.
zltm089 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 02:09 PM   #6
m1bjr
LSD - No, you're not seeing things
 
m1bjr's Avatar
 
Drives: RS250 CUP
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Somerset UK

Posts: 3,313
iTrader: (4)

Send a message via MSN to m1bjr
This is indeed old news.

And the problem with remapping the EEPROMs.

Unlike a removable box, where you just delete any standing codes, you leave an audit trail.

Dont believe anyone who tells you it doesnt, the whole raft of access data, trim values and checksums will give the software away to the expert software developer.

Dont forget, if you can write a map in, you can often read it back out....
How do you think the Police Investigation chaps analyse a MCU for modified software? (I know for fact they can and do)

__________________
m1bjr is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 02:12 PM   #7
FazerBoy
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: BMW E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: London, UK

Posts: 377
iTrader: (0)

Can't really blame them can you - why should they have to maintain warranty coverage where a vehicle has been tuned to produce more power than standard, and thus its engine, turbos and drive train are subjected to more stress and heat than standard etc?

Interesting how some people have no shame in simply removing a tune and then claiming the car is stock and whining to BMW about their rights to warranty coverage.

My car is tuned and I accept that I pay to play.
FazerBoy is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 02:45 PM   #8
ASR1
Member
 
Drives: 330i
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London

Posts: 106
iTrader: (0)

This sounds fair enough.
ASR1 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 04:14 PM   #9
wayne71
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: May 2009
Location: UK

Posts: 381
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FazerBoy View Post
Can't really blame them can you - why should they have to maintain warranty coverage where a vehicle has been tuned to produce more power than standard, and thus its engine, turbos and drive train are subjected to more stress and heat than standard etc?

Interesting how some people have no shame in simply removing a tune and then claiming the car is stock and whining to BMW about their rights to warranty coverage.

My car is tuned and I accept that I pay to play.
Lots of people (myself included) would have no shame in claiming anything they can off a stealer. Its not like your taking something from a poor chap running a small indy backstreet garage.

They are not exactly honest themselves, they added a note to my file saying the warranty wasn't valid, didn't notify me yet kept taking the money for the warranty every month.
wayne71 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 04:16 PM   #10
335diesel
Brigadier General
 
335diesel's Avatar
 
Drives: 335d Touring
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Cornwall

Posts: 4,009
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
What about the dealers that are genuinely doing a good job though?

They aren't all backstabbing villains.
__________________


E91 335d SE Touring

Also Land Rover Puma Defender 110 XS station wagon
335diesel is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 04:27 PM   #11
wayne71
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: May 2009
Location: UK

Posts: 381
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1bjr View Post
This is indeed old news.

And the problem with remapping the EEPROMs.

Unlike a removable box, where you just delete any standing codes, you leave an audit trail.

Dont believe anyone who tells you it doesnt, the whole raft of access data, trim values and checksums will give the software away to the expert software developer.

Dont forget, if you can write a map in, you can often read it back out....
How do you think the Police Investigation chaps analyse a MCU for modified software? (I know for fact they can and do)

Quick question, if BMW do a software upgrade would this wipe out any evidence of it being mapped or is this data stored regardless.
wayne71 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 04:58 PM   #12
Berttie21
New Member
 
Drives: 335d M Sport
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Surrey

Posts: 6
iTrader: (0)

does anyone know if a remap leaves a time and date stamp? With so many cars in the 2nd hand market is it possible for dealers to identify when a map is done?
Berttie21 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 05:14 PM   #13
Dave_3
Colonel
 
Dave_3's Avatar
 
Drives: F32 430D sDrive Msport
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CH / SCO

Posts: 2,756
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by 335diesel View Post
What about the dealers that are genuinely doing a good job though?
What about those of us who don't tune ..... Paying for all the morally bereft tuning cheats. No sympathy. Pay to play.

D.
__________________
Escort Mk1 RS2000 (2.1 2x44IDFS, BVH, Kent FR32, 5spd, 180 BHP) : Fully Loaded F32 430D M Sport sDrive : Previously Full-Spec 335D E92 2006 : Capri MK1 full rebuild in progress

Dave_3 is offline   Scotland
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 05:25 PM   #14
wayne71
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: May 2009
Location: UK

Posts: 381
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
What about those of us who don't tune ..... Paying for all the morally bereft tuning cheats. No sympathy. Pay to play.

D.
Morally bereft? Get a grip. What exactly are you paying extra for? Its car tuning not tax dodging.

This was simply a thread to warn people who do tune and for those who may get flagged in error.
wayne71 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 05:39 PM   #15
HighlandPete
Brigadier General
 
Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

Posts: 4,383
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne71 View Post
Morally bereft? Get a grip. What exactly are you paying extra for? Its car tuning not tax dodging.

This was simply a thread to warn people who do tune and for those who may get flagged in error.
Let's not kid ourselves, warranties don't come for free, so we all pay. Extended warrantiies are insured warranties, so the premium is higher, like any insurance, to allow for those abusing the system, so the good guys do pay.

How can it be viewed any different?

HighlandPete
HighlandPete is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 05:53 PM   #16
wayne71
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: May 2009
Location: UK

Posts: 381
iTrader: (0)

Lets not kid ourselves indeed, lets say your car was mapped and you were faced with a 2k bill that BMW were willing to pay, would you hand the cash over and say "sorry old chap I can't let BMW pay for this as I've had it tuned"
wayne71 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-05-2011, 06:09 PM   #17
Dave_3
Colonel
 
Dave_3's Avatar
 
Drives: F32 430D sDrive Msport
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CH / SCO

Posts: 2,756
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne71 View Post
Lets not kid ourselves indeed, lets say your car was mapped and you were faced with a 2k bill that BMW were willing to pay, would you hand the cash over and say "sorry old chap I can't let BMW pay for this as I've had it tuned"
Why not ?

The option that they have to pay you under deception seems fine to you, but you find it incredulous to pay for it yourself when you knowingly break the warranty ?

It is as simple as that.

D.
__________________
Escort Mk1 RS2000 (2.1 2x44IDFS, BVH, Kent FR32, 5spd, 180 BHP) : Fully Loaded F32 430D M Sport sDrive : Previously Full-Spec 335D E92 2006 : Capri MK1 full rebuild in progress

Dave_3 is offline   Scotland
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2011, 02:16 AM   #18
E92westy
Lieutenant
 
E92westy's Avatar
 
Drives: F20 118d Sport
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Staffs.

Posts: 549
iTrader: (2)

Is there now a general agreement that tuning does affect the long term reliability of our cars?
If not, then who can say the potential warranty issue has been caused by a re-map?
And if you can't say that, it can't be 'morally bereft' to remove the map just to ensure you get the required work done under the warranty.... can it?
__________________
E92westy is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2011, 03:30 AM   #19
HighlandPete
Brigadier General
 
Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

Posts: 4,383
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E92westy View Post
Is there now a general agreement that tuning does affect the long term reliability of our cars?
If not, then who can say the potential warranty issue has been caused by a re-map?
And if you can't say that, it can't be 'morally bereft' to remove the map just to ensure you get the required work done under the warranty.... can it?
The fact users hide the map at service and warranty time, indicates they know they are on sticky ground.

Best test is is ask BMW if a map breaks the 'terms and conditions', then we know the score.

It is not really to do with the car's reliability (or not) with maps, but BMW do have the right to set the terms and conditions, for what qualifies as a warranty claim.

I've been in business where we set the terms and conditions for our product. Totally different attitude to those who used a product 'reasonably' to those who blatantly abused the product and expected us, as the manufacturer, to carry the costs...

Even with a map fitted, unrelated items should still be covered by warranty, but where there is a possibility (or probability) that it is related, then the 'play and pay' can be the only honest and fair approach. But as I said before, the good guys will be contributing to those who abuse the terms and conditions, there is no free lunch, and it won't be BMW's profit line that pays, I assure you.

Remember car insurance and a reason we pay so much, partly to fund those who abuse the system.

HighlandPete
HighlandPete is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2011, 04:04 AM   #20
toxicnerve
Colonel
 
Drives: E92 335d M-Sport
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK

Posts: 2,834
iTrader: (2)

I agree with Fazer, TrackRat, Dave and Highland.

BMW are well within their rights to look for a map/tune and throw out any claims that can be attributed to it.

It's fine if you want to run a tune but when something breaks because of it don't expect someone else to shell out for it.

Wayne, what you are suggesting is tantamount to fraud. There's no two ways about it. It doesn't matter how large/rich the organisation

As has already been explained, warranties ARE NOT FREE! The cost of a warranty is carefully calculated component of the retail price of a car. It's a gamble for sure but it's a calculated gamble based on various statistics about component failures etc. Sometimes the manufacturer wins and sometimes the customer wins.

E92Westy,

Say you're running a tune and a turbo dies. How would you go about proving that the tune did not contribute to the turbo? Now, you may say you're not an engineer but even if you were, it's a can of worms mate I can tell you. Did increased boost pressure cause it? Bearing problem? Lubrication problem? Manufacturing defect in the structure of the turbo? It's a whole world of pain. The cost of analysing the unit to figure it out would be pretty high I reckon. For what? Your warranty claim? Easier just to blanket state that any car running an unofficial tune/map is not covered for engine/drive-train failures (yes, gearboxes and diffs can be lunched by running inappropriate levels of torque/power).

If the car has no tune then it's easy. BMW are at fault and have to swallow the cost. The chances are they will run an analysis on the failed unit so they can improve their service/manufacturing processes.
toxicnerve is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2011, 05:51 AM   #21
zltm089
Major General
 
zltm089's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i SE Coupe Space Grey
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: LONDON

Posts: 7,365
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2006 BMW 335i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne71 View Post
Lots of people (myself included) would have no shame in claiming anything they can off a stealer. Its not like your taking something from a poor chap running a small indy backstreet garage.

They are not exactly honest themselves, they added a note to my file saying the warranty wasn't valid, didn't notify me yet kept taking the money for the warranty every month.

Plus one!!!!!


and regarding car insurance aswell!!!! ...I don't know why some people think that its "normal" to pay such high price or premium what ever you call it....and the "excuse" ohhh its because there are other customers abusing the system!....so the insurance companies "charges everyone a higher premium" to stay in business....
__________________

Current Car: E92 335i SE Dream Cars: AMG SL65 Black,GallardoSuperleggera, GTR 2012, Agera R, F430 Scuderia, DBS, EVO X FQ400, Lexus LFA, F10 M5, M4, GT3 RS4.0, Ferrari 458, Ferrari F12, R8 V10 plus, Jaguar F Type V8, Lamborghini LP700-4 Aventador, Chevrolet Camaro ZL1, C63 AMG Coupe Black, Vanquish 2012, Laferrari, GT3 991, McLaren 650s.
zltm089 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      04-06-2011, 07:40 AM   #22
Dave_3
Colonel
 
Dave_3's Avatar
 
Drives: F32 430D sDrive Msport
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CH / SCO

Posts: 2,756
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by E92westy View Post
Is there now a general agreement that tuning does affect the long term reliability of our cars?
If not, then who can say the potential warranty issue has been caused by a re-map?
Point 1. Whether your tune has affected the running or reliability of your car can be discussed. BMW will have extensive testing and quality control carried out by themselves with masses of statistical and empirical data, while most buyers of tunes have to take the word of the tuning company that their encroaching on the tolerances will be fine. But it cannot be denied that upping power and torque through the engine and drive train WILL have an effect.

Point 2. But that is not really relevant when the manufacturers warranty is only valid on the car as built by BMW. You modify the car you break the warranty for that part (or associated parts). We ALL understand that.

The fact that some are trying to hide their tunes shows that even they understand that they are breaking point 2. Just because some want to debate Point 1. doesn't absolve them from Point 2.

D.
__________________
Escort Mk1 RS2000 (2.1 2x44IDFS, BVH, Kent FR32, 5spd, 180 BHP) : Fully Loaded F32 430D M Sport sDrive : Previously Full-Spec 335D E92 2006 : Capri MK1 full rebuild in progress

Dave_3 is offline   Scotland
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:28 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST