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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Vishnu N54 Fuel System Research Part 1



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      04-07-2011, 05:26 PM   #111
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Fuel System

We can not leak too much info at this time. But stay tuned and you will understand how the system works once the data value is released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brey335i View Post
So Shiv, to keep this on topic, I will extend you the same question that I asked before lol. Will us non-meth, non-RB turbo guys see a power/drivability benefit or will it only benefit high hp crazy people?
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      04-07-2011, 05:27 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brey335i View Post
So Shiv, to keep this on topic, I will extend you the same question that I asked before lol. Will us non-meth, non-RB turbo guys see a power/drivability benefit or will it only benefit high hp crazy people?
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
It should help stock turbo guys as well. Part 2 coming tomorrow. I have 6hrs worth of bench testing data to compile, summarize and post. In the last two days, i've test driven 800 miles while spending an entire afternoon at RC Engineering using the equipment in their lab. It was pretty awesome
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      04-07-2011, 05:29 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brey335i View Post
So Shiv, to keep this on topic, I will extend you the same question that I asked before lol. Will us non-meth, non-RB turbo guys see a power/drivability benefit or will it only benefit high hp crazy people?
It's definitely not just for upgraded turbo applications. Will show later when I post all the flow data
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      04-07-2011, 05:36 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Chris,
Yes, it's a closed loop system. But if you are injecting too much meth/water, it will exceed the limits of the system's authority range and overshoot the AFR target. 1 single M10 nozzle isn't enough to do this. These days, some high hp guys are using dual M14s.

Shiv
If the injection overshot the system autority range, people would throw lean/rich codes as their fuel trims would shoot over plus or minus 20 percent. Thats not the case here.

People running dual 14s btw need to realize that they arnt actually flowing that much due to the pump dropping massive pressure.
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      04-07-2011, 05:44 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
If the injection overshot the system autority range, people would throw lean/rich codes as their fuel trims would shoot over plus or minus 20 percent. Thats not the case here.
The trigger for that diagnostic code requires that the AFR error exist for a period longer of time than what you will see during on-boost driving. This is why you can cruise for several minutes with a dying o2 sensor before any fuel mixture codes even go in the pending state. You like arguing. That's cool. But there is a time and place for everything.
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      04-07-2011, 05:47 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
The trigger for that diagnostic code requires that the AFR error exist for a period longer of time than what you will see during on-boost driving. This is why you can cruise for several minutes with a dying o2 sensor before any fuel mixture codes even go in the pending state. You like arguing. That's cool. But there is a time and place for everything.
I am not arguing, I am stating facts. Fill up your car with e85 and simply start it, within seconds you should throw a ses light with a system to lean code as the fuel trims go past +20.

Like I said you wouldnt comment on my boost a pump comment with the piggy back side making the ecu happy, or the injection time/overlap comment, but you continue to waste your time responding to something you and I both know and understand? why? lol

Either way, the result will bring more info to the community and thats what actually matters.
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      04-07-2011, 06:01 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
I am not arguing, I am stating facts. Fill up your car with e85 and simply start it, within seconds you should throw a ses light with a system to lean code as the fuel trims go past +20.

Like I said you wouldnt comment on my boost a pump comment with the piggy back side making the ecu happy, or the injection time/overlap comment, but you continue to waste your time responding to something you and I both know and understand? why? lol

Either way, the result will bring more info to the community and thats what actually matters.
During our fuel system testing I purposely dropped fuel pressure gradually at idle until the car stalled. It was running leaner than the desired targets for over 10 seconds and no fuel mixture code. Just fuel pump codes. You can test this yourself to a degree by unplugging your EKP module and watching the system slowly lose pressure until the engine stalls. Then check the codes for yourself.

Similarly, when tuning the two 500+whp cars in Canada on the stock fuel system, we were running so far beyond the fuel system that AFR targets weren't reached for the last 4 seconds of the run 17-20psi of boost. No fuel mixture codes.

It's well understood that fuel mixture codes require an extended period of lean/rich run before they are triggered. If you actually filled your car up with e85 and triggered a fuel mixture code within seconds, I'm impressed. But please don't discount the result of actual testing done by others just to win an argument.

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      04-07-2011, 06:04 PM   #118
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Clap, I gotta stand behind your comments the majority of the time, but it does seem like you are arguing just to argue you here. The things you want him to answer will give a good amount of info on how he is accomplishing the fueling issue. Why would he tell you that right now when he's already stated to wait a bit and he'll disclose everything. Maybe he just needs to get his ducks in a row before lettingthe cat completely out of the bag.
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      04-07-2011, 06:07 PM   #119
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People think I am arguing when in fact this is not the my first DI car, and this not the first time I have delt with a DI car that runs out of fuel. But ok, I am arguing, carry on....unreal lol

Why exactly would I argue this again? I can't think of one good or bad reason personally.


Shiv you are still ignoring my main comments again? Is that what part II is going to be about?
As for your 4 second dyno lean run, typically cars stay wot for multiple gears, not a single dyno pull. Just wanted to point that out before people get confused.
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      04-07-2011, 06:11 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
It's definitely not just for upgraded turbo applications. Will show later when I post all the flow data
Interested in this .
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      04-07-2011, 06:52 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
I also spoke with shiv about another issue as I have decent experience with DI cars.
You can develop a fuel system that supports 40000whp. However ultimatly you are limited by the injection times each injector has to fire the fuel. In that small window, you can only squirt so much fuel, and if you try to extend that window then you will run into overlap issues and piss out fuel out the valves giving the o2 sensors false rich conditions
Wouldn't larger injectors along with higher fuel pressure solve this?
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      04-07-2011, 07:11 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prelude2perfect View Post
Wouldn't larger injectors along with higher fuel pressure solve this?
Probably not larger injectors, maybe just higher fuel pressure...its the injection window and the pressure of the squirt that matter at higher cyl pressures as stated previously..obviously if the injector can't support enough flow then yes, upsize it...keep in mind X5M and X6M use the same injectors and they push, when tuned, over 600whp (saw some dynos a while ago with some flash tunes)..so injectors aren't the issue, its the lpfp...i wonder why we can't just swap in an X5M LPFP
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      04-07-2011, 07:38 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzenno View Post
Probably not larger injectors, maybe just higher fuel pressure...its the injection window and the pressure of the squirt that matter at higher cyl pressures as stated previously..obviously if the injector can't support enough flow then yes, upsize it...keep in mind X5M and X6M use the same injectors and they push, when tuned, over 600whp (saw some dynos a while ago with some flash tunes)..so injectors aren't the issue, its the lpfp...i wonder why we can't just swap in an X5M LPFP
Correct me if I'm wrong but, I would think that the injectors are being pushed near the limit of their duty cycles with the current tunes out there. I know increasing the fuel pressure would help but, wouldn't the problem very quickly become the injectors?

As far as the X5M and X6M comparison goes, there really isn't one. Those engines are rated at what, a 555hp rating from the factory when ours is 300? The aftermarket for our engine has made larger increases in power on the stock fuel system then it has on those. Horsepower isn't what you should be measuring to show the limit of the fuel injectors, there are way too many other variables to think of when comparing two completely different engines with the same injectors.
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      04-07-2011, 07:55 PM   #124
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The other bmws using our injectors dont mean much....think of it more along the lines of power per cylinder, not engine.
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      04-07-2011, 08:11 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzenno View Post
Probably not larger injectors, maybe just higher fuel pressure...its the injection window and the pressure of the squirt that matter at higher cyl pressures as stated previously..obviously if the injector can't support enough flow then yes, upsize it...keep in mind X5M and X6M use the same injectors and they push, when tuned, over 600whp (saw some dynos a while ago with some flash tunes)..so injectors aren't the issue, its the lpfp...i wonder why we can't just swap in an X5M LPFP
The X5M & X6M aren't really a relevant, as they're both running TT 4.4L V8's last I checked... meaning, they're running 2 extra fuel injectors, among other factors.

However, back in my Subaru days people used to modify their stock fuel pressure regulators on a regular basis (myself included), and typically when upping fuel pressure by ~10psi (on a system that was FPR limited around ~43psi + manifold pressure) used to see a significant reduction in IDC's running the same loads & AFR's, where a set of injectors that was rated at 650cc would flow the equivalent of around ~720cc or so. Granted, it's not a direct comparison, but the model should be the same: increase fuel pressure and the injectors should have more overhead.
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      04-07-2011, 08:12 PM   #126
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How about we just wait and see what the upgraded LPFP brings to the table. I am curious as to if it will be enough to support 400whp on pump gas. That is and always was my goal and if Shiv's latest brings it to the table, I will rid myself of this meth kit forever.
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      04-07-2011, 08:17 PM   #127
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Quote:
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How about we just wait and see what the upgraded LPFP brings to the table. I am curious as to if it will be enough to support 400whp on pump gas. That is and always was my goal and if Shiv's latest brings it to the table, I will rid myself of this meth kit forever.
Well, if that is what Shiv has planned, I'm assuming he's not only addressed the LPFP, but has come up with a FPR solution as well, as flowing more fuel from the tank won't help much if pressure is limited at the FPR. However, my assumption is that increasing the LPFP to HPFP pressure, should increase total pressure exponentially... but that's just an assumption of mine.

I suppose we'll wait and see what Shiv has in store.
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      04-07-2011, 08:19 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
People think I am arguing when in fact this is not the my first DI car, and this not the first time I have delt with a DI car that runs out of fuel. But ok, I am arguing, carry on....unreal lol

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      04-07-2011, 09:03 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzenno View Post
Probably not larger injectors, maybe just higher fuel pressure...its the injection window and the pressure of the squirt that matter at higher cyl pressures as stated previously..obviously if the injector can't support enough flow then yes, upsize it...keep in mind X5M and X6M use the same injectors and they push, when tuned, over 600whp (saw some dynos a while ago with some flash tunes)..so injectors aren't the issue, its the lpfp...i wonder why we can't just swap in an X5M LPFP
They do Dzenno but they have 2 extra cylinders and 2 extra injectors.
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      04-07-2011, 09:09 PM   #130
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I don't believe the injectors have been a limiting factor in any n54 car. Even in high boost cars running race gas (no meth) with upgraded turbos. I don't think we can look at them in the same light as conventional injectors that have maximum on-time constraints.
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      04-07-2011, 09:11 PM   #131
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      04-07-2011, 09:26 PM   #132
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