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      05-03-2011, 11:14 PM   #23
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I'm thinking of doing this for 3-4 weeks. Then taking the same amount of time off and doing it over. What do you guys think?
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      05-04-2011, 01:18 AM   #24
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If you want a simple, safe, and easy diet. Become a vegetarian for 3 months.
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      05-04-2011, 02:32 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by pman10 View Post

1.) Cholesterol intake has NOTHING to do with your levels of insulin (or counter-regulatory hormones for that matter). Eating that sort of diet will lead to increased levels of cholesterol intake into your body. The cholesterol is taken up by particles (lipoproteins) into your bloodstream. Your liver ordinarily is involved with removing excess cholesterol in the blood, via receptor-mediated uptake. When you have very high levels of cholesterol in your blood, some of that cholesterol is taken up by phagocytes (macrophages) in the lining of your arteries. Phagocytes then oxidize the protein-cholesterol particles, ultimately leading to deposition of lipids in your blood vessel walls, and ATHEROSCLEROSIS (which is a direct cause of vascular disease and heart attacks).

2.) You are correct that the ketogenic diet will downregulate insulin, as the body perceives that you are in a low-energy (fasting) state due to low glucose levels. The body's reaction to this is to activate hormone-sensitive lipase in your adipose tissues, releasing fatty acids into your blood stream. Coupled with your excessive ingestion of fats (eg. bacon), you end up in a state of hypertriglyceridemia (high lipid levels in your blood), which is a direct risk factor for heart attacks and strokes.

3.) Your liver attempts to compensate for your low glucose levels by ketogenesis (ketosis). It does this by taking up SOME of the fats in your circulation (as well as proteins) and converts them into ketone bodies. One of the side effects is that some fat gets stored in your liver, and over time can lead to fatty liver disease, a cause of hepatic cirrhosis and hepatocellular carcinoma (liver cancer).

4.) I've heard about the 'Inuit hypothesis'. Current theory holds that they likely have genetic differences (due to natural selection) that allow them to maintain a ketogenic diet without any adverse effects. These DNA sequencing studies I believe are currently ongoing.


Ketogenic diet adverse effects summary:


1.) Increased cholesterol levels -> increased risk of heart attack or stroke
2.) Increased lipid levels in blood -> increased risk of heart attack, stroke, and/or liver disease
3.) Increased risk of kidney stones

You are right, the point of a diet is to be short term. MY point, however, is that no one knows for certain what delineates between "short term" and "long term". There is no clear-cut line between 'safe' , short term ketosis and long-term, damaging ketosis. Plus, I would assume that one would have to repeatedly return to the diet to maintain those weight losses, unless you manage the impossible (maintaining your post-diet weight perfectly, forever).

I don't understand why one would choose this diet, but it's your choice if you choose to follow it. However, don't portray your diet as perfectly safe or medically sound. I just want to make sure that everyone is well and truly aware of the potential health issues associated with a ketogenic diet, upon which they can make an informed decision. If you don't believe me, speak to your physician. Or, open a physiology textbook.


Best of luck

I have never said anywhere that the diet is Medically Sound or Perfectly Safe, and I should say that almost no one can say that about most of the things people eat. But, however, I don't believe the dangers you're speaking of are inherently great in the short-period of time people are on this diet.

Back to the Cholesterol thing. Cholesterol is proportional to body weight/body fat. Cholesterol is used by the body to ensure healthy cell growth, though understandably too much will be bad for you since that leads to high blood pressure, cardiovascular risks, and cuts off blood-circulation (eventually, somewhere).

Now please understand this, as I understand exactly what you're trying to tell me about the biological repercussions of being in ketosis. This Cyclical Ketogenic Diet was made for bodybuilders who wanted to cut-down body fat and prepare for competitions, or just get ready for summer beaches (something most healthy conscious people do). This is why the CKD diet is done alongside a five day weight-lifting and cardio-intensive excercise regime.

Referring back to information clearly discussed in the original post, a person under ketosis will produce enzymes that begin to switch the body over to using fat as fuel, instead of carbohydrates. Understanding this, you'd understand that the body will directly take energy from your fat-storages -- causing faster-than-usual fat burning.

With the body in ketosis and working out 5 times a week, a person is expected to lose considerable amounts of weight (8lbs for me in one week). Every single physician in this world will tell you that losing 5-10lbs of fat will do wonders to your body's cholesterol levels because cholesterol is directly tied into body-weight and body-fat percentages, even the Mayo Clinic agrees. The reason why the CKD diet is attributable to lower Cholesterol levels is because of this rapid fat loss. Lower body weight and lower body fat equates to lower production of cholesterol by the body. Bingo! The same thing happens no matter whichever way/diet/excercise regime/etc you decide to put your body through to lose weight. Lowering your weight simply lowers cholesterol production because it's directly tied into body weight. It's that simple.

Now, I understand your logical rhetoric. You're telling me and everyone else here that high consumptions of saturated fats will clog your arteries. Of course they do, but in excess quantities AND coupled with a poor active lifestyle that so many people seem to have nowadays. I understand the rhetoric about ketosis putting someone in the position to consume high-amounts of fats and subsequently putting them in high-risk of cardiovascular disease. I get it.

What you don't seem to understand is with the amount of weight a person loses on this CKD diet being in ketosis, working out 5x a week and having a strict mathematical breakdown of how much protein/fat intake you're supposed to have based on your body weight (and being in a ketogenic state), you would THEORETICALLY never have high-cholesterol levels. In a ketogenic state, your fat-intake levels are allowed to increase because lipids become the main source of fuel. This is why there is a strictly mathematical portion to this diet outlining how much grams of fat one may intake on a daily basis. This high level of lipid consumption is unacceptable for a body not using lipids (fats) as their main source of fuel (ketogenic state), and will absolutely 100% lead to high-cholesterol and serious cardiovascular disease (in a high-carb diet). That is what you do not understand. This is simply a different scenario.

But what about the carb-up? Surely when we carb-up the high-fat intake will work adversely to harm the body, since now normal biological conditions apply. Wrong. The CKD Diet, and written clearly in the Original Post, outlines a low-fat intake on your carb-up days.

The CKD Diet also calls for high-water intake to specifically aid the liver since, as you outlined oh-so biologically it's role, it is directly involved when the body is in Ketosis.

Make your argument about someone on the CKD diet, not following the reccomended fat/protein intake consumptions and then over-loading on high-fats while slacking off in the excercise regime and then, yes, then we will have basis for grounds in which you can argue against me that this will be potentially and seriously life-threatening being on this diet -- but if you're already breaking all the rules then you're not even on this diet to begin with. I even told everyone previously above that if you messed up on this diet and consumed carbs and slacked off, this diet will have severely adverse effects.

Cliffs:
- Ketogenic diet puts the body in a state where lipids (fat) is used as primary fuel source.
- This is why the CKD diet allows for higher lipid (fat) intake since it's purpose is to switch to fatty acid fuel sources and deplete your glycogen reserves (body fat).
- The CKD diet specifically entails how much grams of fat/protein intake one must/may consume on a daily basis based on a person being in this CKD-state.
- Cholesterol production, being directly tied into body-weight and body-fat percentages, will lower because of the amount of faster-than-usual weight loss (and therefore lower body-weight and body fat %) on the diet, in unison with a 5-day lifting/cardio excercise regime.
- The CKD Diet also entails having high-water intake to aid the liver as it's directly involved in ketosis and the higher-than-usual amount of lipid/protein ingestion.




P.S. Dr. Atkins is the pioneer of Ketogenic Diets and was also a well-known cardiologist. When the original Atkins diet (which involves no excercise regime like CKD) was introduced, everyone tried to nail his ass to the wall with medical literature discussing the biological consequences of high-fat ingestion. What people do not understand, and clearly still do not continue to understand, is that applying normal-high-carb-diet conditions to a ketogenic-no-carb-diet state is as effective as comparing Apples to Oranges.

P.S.S. I will also no longer entertain the idea of arguing with anybody who really does not wish to read the original post, as I've had to refer back to it in almost all of these responses in order to outline what information was presented about the ketogenic diet.

P.S.S.S. I will repeat this again: Follow the diet carefully. Keep your Water intake high. And never give up on your workouts or cardiovascular exercises. This diet is centered around cardio and weight lifting.
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      05-04-2011, 02:45 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by .:bHd:. View Post
I'm thinking of doing this for 3-4 weeks. Then taking the same amount of time off and doing it over. What do you guys think?
I'm personally going to be doing this diet until the end of August. Then I'll be switching over to a balanced and portion-conscious diet that takes food-moderation into account. That's my personal post-plan to maintain the results of the CKD diet.

If, however, you want to switch-on and off every month, be prepared to see slower results over time -- or no results at all if in the next month you undo what you did the previous month. But that's true for any diet.
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      05-04-2011, 03:06 AM   #27
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Here is another a very simple and effective diet that requires no thinking on your part.

Get your self a medium size dog, a breed that is known to be active. And run with your dog +2 miles every single day. But be sure you take care of the dog.


An even simpler diet that is no brainier.
Go to your local swimming pool and swim laps every morning before work, or before you go to bed.



So stop making a diet so complicated, there are many and simpler ways you can stay in shape. All you have to do is be physically active on daily basis.
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      05-04-2011, 03:09 AM   #28
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Here is another a very simple and effective diet that requires no thinking on your part.

Get your self a medium size dog, a breed that is known to be active. And run with your dog +2 miles every single day. But be sure you take care of the dog.


An even simpler diet that is no brainier.
Go to your local swimming pool and swim laps every morning before work, or before you go to bed.



So stop making a diet so complicated, there are many and simpler ways you can stay in shape.
This diet is about getting in shape and is one of the few diets available for reaching those incredibly low body fat percentages. This is why people who are finding it hard to go below 10-13% body fat will switch to this diet. I don't care if you want to swim until you're 10-13% bf. Do whatever method you want. I don't even care if you don't want to go below 10-13% body fat or are comfortable with how you look as is.

The diet is here and is tailored to see maximum results. And also, just because you walk the dog or swim laps doesn't mean you'll lose weight. For example, P90x workouts won't do anything for you unless you diet right. It's all about the diet.
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      05-04-2011, 03:54 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Vanity View Post
This diet is about getting in shape and is one of the few diets available for reaching those incredibly low body fat percentages. This is why people who are finding it hard to go below 10-13% body fat will switch to this diet. I don't care if you want to swim until you're 10-13% bf. Do whatever method you want. I don't even care if you don't want to go below 10-13% body fat or are comfortable with how you look as is.

The diet is here and is tailored to see maximum results. And also, just because you walk the dog or swim laps doesn't mean you'll lose weight. For example, P90x workouts won't do anything for you unless you diet right. It's all about the diet.
You are right.

But im too lazy and i no longer care to spell out for the majority what they should eat or don't eat. This subject has been beaten to death, raised (sp) from the hell of all eternity then beaten to death once again for the last two decades.

The simple exercise program that i have provided is for the people who know how to eat properly. But if you think you can eat a 1/2lb big mac for lunch on daily basis, do laps in the swimming pool and expect results, then you are an idiot. I dont like to call people names such as "idiot". But majority deserve it!



This might come as a shock for many of you, something that is alien and outrages for many Americans. But i will bet my 740I BMW on this.

Switch your lunch with dinner. Eat same food at lunch time as you would at dinner, and eat same food at dinner as you would at lunch time. Get back to me in 3-4 months with the results. When you do, be sure you give me the keys and the title to your car and your house.
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      05-04-2011, 11:24 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Vanity View Post
I'm personally going to be doing this diet until the end of August. Then I'll be switching over to a balanced and portion-conscious diet that takes food-moderation into account. That's my personal post-plan to maintain the results of the CKD diet.

If, however, you want to switch-on and off every month, be prepared to see slower results over time -- or no results at all if in the next month you undo what you did the previous month. But that's true for any diet.
just out of curiosity. What would your meals consists of? It's so hard finding food that have low carbs. I got lunch and dinner down but can't figure out what to eat for breakfast.
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      05-04-2011, 12:57 PM   #31
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just out of curiosity. What would your meals consists of? It's so hard finding food that have low carbs. I got lunch and dinner down but can't figure out what to eat for breakfast.
Yesterday I BBQ'd some steak and had some pan-fried buttered white mushrooms to compliment. There's 2 grams of carbs in 165 grams of white mushrooms, so feel free to have them. And this morning I had eggs and sausages (careful, some sausages have carbs in them. Always check).

What I eat:
- Bacon, Porkchops, Chicken Thighs, Steak, Ground Beef, Cheddar Cheese, Mushrooms, Eggs, etc.

You'll suffer massive, emphasis on "massive", carb cravings within your first week if you're like me. Your first carb-up weekend will satiate this carbing and your second week will be alright. By the third week you're so used to ketosis you really have no more carb cravings and your patience to wait until carb-up weekends strengthen. It gets easier as you go. Just not the workouts!
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      05-04-2011, 01:11 PM   #32
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For breakfast I have 6 egg whites, cheddar cheese (pretty good amount, I like cheese) and 2 long strips of bacon cut in half to make 4 slices. (I use onions, jalapenos, mushrooms sauteed in butter sometimes)

Actually that is my second meal. First meal of the day is 1 cup almond milk (2 gr. carbs) and scoop of chocolate protein powder (4 grams carb).

As long as you are under 20 grams of carbs. per day you are golden. I also run 30 minutes a day at moderate heart rate (140 or so for me at age 29)

I lost 6 lbs. in a week in a half.
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      05-04-2011, 01:30 PM   #33
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For breakfast I have 6 egg whites, cheddar cheese (pretty good amount, I like cheese) and 2 long strips of bacon cut in half to make 4 slices. (I use onions, jalapenos, mushrooms sauteed in butter sometimes)

Actually that is my second meal. First meal of the day is 1 cup almond milk (2 gr. carbs) and scoop of chocolate protein powder (4 grams carb).

As long as you are under 20 grams of carbs. per day you are golden. I also run 30 minutes a day at moderate heart rate (140 or so for me at age 29)

I lost 6 lbs. in a week in a half.
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      05-04-2011, 01:43 PM   #34
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...

P.S.S. I will also no longer entertain the idea of arguing with anybody who really does not wish to read the original post, as I've had to refer back to it in almost all of these responses in order to outline what information was presented about the ketogenic diet.

P.S.S.S. I will repeat this again: Follow the diet carefully. Keep your Water intake high. And never give up on your workouts or cardiovascular exercises. This diet is centered around cardio and weight lifting.
I read your original post, but some of the medical logic implied is inaccurate or oversimplified. That is why I started a post fresh.

A quick point I'd like to make:

1.) Dr. Atkins never did any studies on the safety of his diet, only on its efficacy in making you lose weight. Note that I never criticized your diet on its efficacy. Also note that Dr. Atkins practiced nearly 50 years ago, and that our understanding of biochemistry and lipid metabolism has progressed greatly since then.

2.) Cholesterol is NOT used as a fuel source. That is why picking what you eat is an intrinsic aspect of any cholesterol-lowering regimen, regardless of weight, fitness, current diet etc. You are correct that cholesterol levels tend to lower as your weight reduces. However, this has nothing to do with you 'burning' cholesterol or using it as fuel. It is due to the fact that your body makes more HDL (a protein that carries cholesterol back to your liver for excretion through your bile into your stools). What's not known is if this compensatory increase in HDL can match the huge increase in cholesterol intake that accompanies a ketogenic diet, as the pathway has not been fully elucidated.

FYI - If you believe what I am saying is rhetoric, speak to your doctor.

I will trouble you no further, as we clearly differ on some pretty fundamental biological/science concepts. I wish you the best of luck, and I appreciate your efforts to encourage us to be healthy. I just object to the means, not the end goal. Cheers
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      05-04-2011, 10:56 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
I read your original post, but some of the medical logic implied is inaccurate or oversimplified. That is why I started a post fresh.

A quick point I'd like to make:

1.) Dr. Atkins never did any studies on the safety of his diet, only on its efficacy in making you lose weight. Note that I never criticized your diet on its efficacy. Also note that Dr. Atkins practiced nearly 50 years ago, and that our understanding of biochemistry and lipid metabolism has progressed greatly since then.

2.) Cholesterol is NOT used as a fuel source. That is why picking what you eat is an intrinsic aspect of any cholesterol-lowering regimen, regardless of weight, fitness, current diet etc. You are correct that cholesterol levels tend to lower as your weight reduces. However, this has nothing to do with you 'burning' cholesterol or using it as fuel. It is due to the fact that your body makes more HDL (a protein that carries cholesterol back to your liver for excretion through your bile into your stools). What's not known is if this compensatory increase in HDL can match the huge increase in cholesterol intake that accompanies a ketogenic diet, as the pathway has not been fully elucidated.

FYI - If you believe what I am saying is rhetoric, speak to your doctor.

I will trouble you no further, as we clearly differ on some pretty fundamental biological/science concepts. I wish you the best of luck, and I appreciate your efforts to encourage us to be healthy. I just object to the means, not the end goal. Cheers
I was under the assumption that cholesterol was made from lipids and that the increased ingestion of lipids would never make it's way to become cholesterol since it's used as the body's primary fuel source. I could be wrong though, and please inform me if I am. I don't like to sound like an ass, but it does get frustrating having to respond to such long posts every single time i open this thread @_@

And yeah, everyone should take into consideration the time Dr. Atkins practiced. I do believe, though, that others like Lyle McDonald have taken over doing research studies. Not sure about his credentials.

Anyways, I just injured my foot today but will see what my ankle is like in about a week and whether or not going to the gym with crutches is advisable. I wouldn't mind going to the gym in crutches but I don't know how cumbersome it might be.

For the time being, since I can't run anymore, I'll be off this diet because I have no cardio in my regime anymore (and possibly no more weight lifting if I can't get around the gym). Wish me luck guys and good luck with all your workouts too!
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      05-09-2011, 10:34 PM   #36
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First day

Breakfast: 6 egg whites
Lunch: chipotle salad with 3x chicken, cheese and sour cream
Dinner: sashimi

Gotta say I was weak as fuck at the gym.. And my concentration on text has been difficult lol
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      05-10-2011, 10:10 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .:bHd:. View Post
First day

Breakfast: 6 egg whites
Lunch: chipotle salad with 3x chicken, cheese and sour cream
Dinner: sashimi

Gotta say I was weak as fuck at the gym.. And my concentration on text has been difficult lol
You'll also have massive carb cravings around Day 4-5.

It gets a lot better.
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      05-10-2011, 10:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .:bHd:. View Post
First day

Breakfast: 6 egg whites
Lunch: chipotle salad with 3x chicken, cheese and sour cream
Dinner: sashimi

Gotta say I was weak as fuck at the gym.. And my concentration on text has been difficult lol
Why are you throwing away the egg yolk?

Beef has minimal carbs along with sliced deli turkey.


Also see here for food ideas: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=143
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      05-10-2011, 10:24 PM   #39
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I just wanted to say I lasted a day on this diet. 99% of food out there has carbs. I'll try to eat low carbs but I'm just not gonna go through with this. Way too much work. I feel like if you eat well and exercise well you'll be just fine.

with this diet you can't exercise at all!
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      05-12-2011, 09:17 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
I can't believe the crap that is being suggested these days.

Ketosis is NOT a condition all of you should be seeking. It might work in temporarily reducing your fat, but the side effects are tremendous and far more severe.

Ketosis over time will lead to Ketoacidosis. This is a state where your body can't buffer the increased acid content of your blood (ketone bodies are acidic) This has some serious ramifications:

1.) Your body will begin to break down bone to buffer the increased serum (blood) acidity, putting you at risk of increased fractures, etc. This is a normal physiologic response to chronic acidity of the blood.

2.) Bone breakdown will release calcium and phosphate into your blood - excess calcium will be excreted through your kidneys, putting you at risk of kidney stones. This will be exacerbated by the low pH of your urine (promotes uric acid crystal formation).

3.) Rapid increase in cholesterol, putting you at risk of atherosclerosis and cardiac MIs (heart attacks), vascular disease, and strokes at a young age.

4.) Depletion of muscle glycogen will lead to MUSCLE ATROPHY, defeating the purpose of the diet. The ketogenic diet starves your body of glycogen, the fuel used by your muscle.

The reasons go on and on. If you don't believe me, look up alcoholic ketoacidosis. The disease process is similar to a ketogenic diet. Feel free to do as you wish, but at least please understand the risks of such a diet before undertaking it.

Cheers
You don't know what you're talking about. Typical moral panic about ketone metabolism.
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      05-12-2011, 01:49 PM   #41
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You don't know what you're talking about. Typical moral panic about ketone metabolism.
I know right?
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      05-12-2011, 01:50 PM   #42
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I just wanted to say I lasted a day on this diet. 99% of food out there has carbs. I'll try to eat low carbs but I'm just not gonna go through with this. Way too much work. I feel like if you eat well and exercise well you'll be just fine.

with this diet you can't exercise at all!
Partly true. You're "endurance" in running or other cardio will go down as you hit day 5 in the week because your glycogen reserves are depleted. But after your carb up you're back to normal.
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      09-10-2011, 06:14 PM   #43
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Can Vanity or anyone else share their thoughts about doing this low-carb diet and including 10-15 hours of aerobic exercise? Specifically, 4-5 days into the diet completing a 2.5 hour flat and easy ride became difficult.

Years ago I raced road bikes at the professional level and could easily manage 4-5 hour rides with 4-5 cliff bars and a coke. I have been riding more to get my legs back (and lose weight) and have worked up to riding 4-5 hours easy on completely flat roads. Around day 4 or 5, a 2.5 hour ride would feel like 6 hours. I would be completely "bonked" @ 2.5 hours.

I know that a low-carb diets can deplete glycogen which has an affect on aerobic exercise. I started contemplating the idea of taking "cliff shots" (energy gel) with me to keep me going. These shots have 28g of carb and 8g of sugar. From what I understand, these shots are made to quickly replenish the glycogen lost by endurance athletes.

If I maintain a carb intake of no more than 20g, excluding the energy gels I use DURING my ride, would my body stay in ketosis? I feel I can go from fully loaded glycogen stores to ketosis in 6 hours by mashing out a grueling training ride; I mean these rides can drain your glycogen in a matter of hours.
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      09-10-2011, 06:27 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carogers86 View Post
Can Vanity or anyone else share their thoughts about doing this low-carb diet and including 10-15 hours of aerobic exercise? Specifically, 4-5 days into the diet completing a 2.5 hour flat and easy ride became difficult.

Years ago I raced road bikes at the professional level and could easily manage 4-5 hour rides with 4-5 cliff bars and a coke. I have been riding more to get my legs back (and lose weight) and have worked up to riding 4-5 hours easy on completely flat roads. Around day 4 or 5, a 2.5 hour ride would feel like 6 hours. I would be completely "bonked" @ 2.5 hours.

I know that a low-carb diets can deplete glycogen which has an affect on aerobic exercise. I started contemplating the idea of taking "cliff shots" (energy gel) with me to keep me going. These shots have 28g of carb and 8g of sugar. From what I understand, these shots are made to quickly replenish the glycogen lost by endurance athletes.

If I maintain a carb intake of no more than 20g, excluding the energy gels I use DURING my ride, would my body stay in ketosis? I feel I can go from fully loaded glycogen stores to ketosis in 6 hours by mashing out a grueling training ride; I mean these rides can drain your glycogen in a matter of hours.
My only advice would be to try it and that, with common sense, to stop if you feel it's dangerous.

I haven't updated this thread in ages but,

Total weight lost so far: 30lbs.
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