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      04-12-2011, 03:34 PM   #1
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Is ANY damage acceptable?

Car went in today for new rear tyres.
We have a company account with ATS who, it has to be said, have always been excellent in the past.

However, on picking my car up this afternoon (I had to leave it with them the whole day after they discovered one of the tyres was delivered damaged, necessitating a run from Park Royyal to Birmingham for the branch manager) I noticed a number of marks on te wheels.

Given the timings involved I had to get home so we've parked the discussions for tomorrow. I am of the opinion that the wheels should be unmarked, as they were when it went in. Am I right in thinking this is a fair assumption?

I can't see a refurb being much good - my wheels are diamond polished, which means 2 new wheels.

I'm not having much luck with this car;
8 weeks in it's had one windscreen, a scratch on the door, I've been rammed in the arse (and not by Will in the biblical sense) and now I've had both tear wheels lunched.
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      04-12-2011, 03:41 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheps View Post
Car went in today for new rear tyres.
We have a company account with ATS who, it has to be said, have always been excellent in the past.

However, on picking my car up this afternoon (I had to leave it with them the whole day after they discovered one of the tyres was delivered damaged, necessitating a run from Park Royyal to Birmingham for the branch manager) I noticed a number of marks on te wheels.

Given the timings involved I had to get home so we've parked the discussions for tomorrow. I am of the opinion that the wheels should be unmarked, as they were when it went in. Am I right in thinking this is a fair assumption?

I can't see a refurb being much good - my wheels are diamond polished, which means 2 new wheels.

I'm not having much luck with this car;
8 weeks in it's had one windscreen, a scratch on the door, I've been rammed in the arse (and not by Will in the biblical sense) and now I've had both tear wheels lunched.
Sounds hugely familiar to me and my 335i.

When I bought the car the tyres needed replaced and it was part of the agreement. It however took a few weeks over the holiday period for the tyres to arrive and find a suitable date.

The garaged damaged my rims in the process but I did allow them an attempt to fix them which they failed badly at.

I was pushing for new wheels and they were not having any of it.

I contacted the finance company for assistance who then sent an engineer out to look at the wheels.

His report was although the wheels were poorly done there was no justification in replacement as they could be repaired.

Looking through various websites for wheel refurbishment myself, it does seem a number of them claim to be able to achieve a diamond cut finish.

Looks like you might have to settle for a repair.
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      04-12-2011, 03:42 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheps View Post
I am of the opinion that the wheels should be unmarked, as they were when it went in.
Am I right in thinking this is a fair assumption?
Not an unreasonable assumption no, why would you think any different?

If they were in any way worried about damaging the wheels they should have warned you beforehand or declined the job because of the risk.
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      04-12-2011, 03:49 PM   #4
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I don't think I'm being unreasonable in expecting no damage; afterall, the rims aren't manufactured with tyres on, they were delivered in perfect condition so SOMEONE must be capable of fitting tyres without banjaxing the rims?

My problem with repairing is, after say 14 months the wheels go bad where the repair is made who carries the can? Mercedes will tell me to FO. ATS will say "we paid for a repair that you accepted" and the refurbisher will surely only stand by their work for 12 months.

Which means muggins here will end up carrying the can. That, to me, is unacceptable.

Ian, you know my wheels and Lepsons abilities first hand, you think they could refurb them?
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      04-12-2011, 04:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheps View Post

Ian, you know my wheels and Lepsons abilities first hand, you think they could refurb them?
They could Si, BUT only the once.

You'd need all 4 wheels doing if you do decide to go that way.

If I was you I'd be using your companies business and the potential loss of it, to press for new wheels.

If you'd damaged them yourself it would be different, but as someone else damaged them, the refurb at this point leaves you no room for manoeuvre if you do damage them later.

Make sense?
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      04-12-2011, 04:03 PM   #6
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Sheps I have exactly the same wheels as you although mine are 18" not 19" I only take them to Wheels In Motion in Chesham as they have a machine that does not touch the wheels at all.

If I went anywhere else and they put even the slightest mark on my wheels I would go berserk. It is totally unacceptable that your wheels are even slightly damaged.

How would you feel if you had paid 58,000 of your own cash for that car and they damaged the wheels.

This sort of service makes me livid, total wankers who could not give a shit.

Rant over.
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      04-12-2011, 04:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe View Post
They could Si, BUT only the once.

If I was you I'd be using your companies business and the potential loss of it, to press for new wheels.

If you'd damaged them yourself it would be different, but as someone else damaged them, the refurb at this point leaves you no room for manoeuvre if you do damage them later.

Make sense?
Perfect, thanks mate.
New wheels it is.
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      04-12-2011, 04:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe View Post
They could Si, BUT only the once.

You'd need all 4 wheels doing if you do decide to go that way.

If I was you I'd be using your companies business and the potential loss of it, to press for new wheels.

If you'd damaged them yourself it would be different, but as someone else damaged them, the refurb at this point leaves you no room for manoeuvre if you do damage them later.

Make sense?
Why can they only be done once?

Sheps. You need to go to Wheels in Motion/Blackboots in future. I just had a Hunter alignment carried out there and they showed me their "touchless" tyre fitting machine.

The chap there professed to me that their machines (2 of 5 in Europe or UK apparently?) could put any tyre on any rim without leaving a single mark.
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      04-12-2011, 04:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post
Why can they only be done once?

Sheps. You need to go to Wheels in Motion/Blackboots in future. I just had a Hunter alignment carried out there and they showed me their "touchless" tyre fitting machine.

The chap there professed to me that their machines (2 of 5 in Europe or UK apparently?) could put any tyre on any rim without leaving a single mark.
Exactly what I have just said, would not go anywhere else. Even price matched the Internet for a new tyre last month.
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      04-12-2011, 04:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post
Why can they only be done once?

Sheps. You need to go to Wheels in Motion/Blackboots in future. I just had a Hunter alignment carried out there and they showed me their "touchless" tyre fitting machine.

The chap there professed to me that their machines (2 of 5 in Europe or UK apparently?) could put any tyre on any rim without leaving a single mark.
I can't remember where I read this but it was somewhere in the last day or two.

One of the refurbishment companies offered a service where they would send you a refurbished set of wheels sitting on the shelf on the condition that you sent your old wheels as part of the deal.

E46 M3 wheels with the diamond cut face was a prime example.

He then stopped this as the wheels being returned had often been refurbished too many times and he could no longer take a skim off the face to achieve the required finish. The aluminium was too thin and dangerous to take more.
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      04-12-2011, 04:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post

Why can they only be done once?
Diamond cut TN.

Refurbishing is done by lathe, the cutting takes off the lacquer/paint, then the alloy on the face of the wheel.
Too much cutting of the alloy will affect the integrity of the wheel, which is why most reputable refurbers will only do it the once.

Si could have his wheels refurbed, some muppet could then damage his newly refurbed wheels whilst fitting the tyres, and it's fubared!

Lepsons did my GPowers once, but said a second refurb was not possible.
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      04-12-2011, 04:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLR1969 View Post
Exactly what I have just said, would not go anywhere else. Even price matched the Internet for a new tyre last month.
Sorry mate, I missed that you had already posted it. Impressive facilities up at Wheels in Motion though. Knowledgeable staff too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerr View Post
I can't remember where I read this but it was somewhere in the last day or two.

One of the refurbishment companies offered a service where they would send you a refurbished set of wheels sitting on the shelf on the condition that you sent your old wheels as part of the deal.

E46 M3 wheels with the diamond cut face was a prime example.

He then stopped this as the wheels being returned had often been refurbished too many times and he could no longer take a skim off the face to achieve the required finish. The aluminium was too thin and dangerous to take more.
From what I have read regarding the refurb process of say Wheel Works or Lepsons I thought they applied a weld to fill any damaged areas and then reprofiled?

I appreciate what you're saying, just didn't think it worked like that.
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      04-12-2011, 04:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe View Post
Diamond cut TN.

Refurbishing is done by lathe, the cutting takes off the lacquer/paint, then the alloy on the face of the wheel.
Too much cutting of the alloy will affect the integrity of the wheel, which is why most reputable refurbers will only do it the once.

Si could have his wheels refurbed, some muppet could then damage his newly refurbed wheels whilst fitting the tyres, and it's fubared!

Lepsons did my GPowers once, but said a second refurb was not possible.
Ah...so only applies to diamond cut wheels not boggo ones like I have (225m)??
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      04-12-2011, 04:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post
Sorry mate, I missed that you had already posted it. Impressive facilities up at Wheels in Motion though. Knowledgeable staff too.




From what I have read regarding the refurb process of say Wheel Works or Lepsons I thought they applied a weld to fill any damaged areas and then reprofiled?

I appreciate what you're saying, just didn't think it worked like that.
I know nothing about wheel refurbishment and was quoting what was said on a wheel refurbishers website. I thought my post just covered what you said afterwards?

Not sure how it works how they can fill the damaged area and end up with finish that is both consistent with surface finish and colour.

Here is a video of a wheel being recut and it looks like they take a reasonable cut too. 0.5mm at a rough guess and how many wheels run perfectly round that the cut will be equal?



These guys take a lot more.





Obviously these guys are using a CNC lathe but looking at a local company to me, they are using a manual lathe with a copy to machine wheels. Eh, no thanks.
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      04-12-2011, 05:06 PM   #15
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Gutted for you Sheps! I would want new wheels on a car of that age and calibre.

Tyre fitters should be able to remove tires without making a single mark on the rims. Next door to me at work is a second hand tyre supplier, and he does all my alloy swaps, etc. He has never marked an alloy once as he is ultra careful and has decent kit. He knows what I am like with alloys and as he runs a Vantage himself, he understands what customers expect with nice cars/rims

Press em for everything you can mate and really hope you sort it properly
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      04-12-2011, 05:14 PM   #16
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Yeah sorry, I don't think I am being very clear.

I think on a normal painted wheel they can add weld/filler and reprofile it. They don't need to worry about finish/colour match as it will be powder coated/painted with primer, colour and lacquer.

Whereas on a diamond cut wheel what you see as the surface of the wheel is basically the metal of the alloy itself albeit with a clear lacquer over the top. With this being the case you can't fill/weld as the added material would be visible through the clear coat.

At least that's the impression I am getting...
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      04-12-2011, 05:29 PM   #17
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I know a bit about machining and I think what you think would be correct.

I highly doubt that a weld or any filler will give a perfect match on a machined aluminium surface.

Without seeing pictures of Sheps' wheels it's hard to make assumptions but normally damage is lever marks on the wheels.

He has every right to be angry as they should never have been damaged.

However looking through some of those videos I bet they are going much deeper than your average lever mark at tyre fitting.

I'd not be happy seeing that amount of material come off my wheels and that's quite clearly why they only allow one refinish.
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      04-12-2011, 05:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post

Whereas on a diamond cut wheel what you see as the surface of the wheel is basically the metal of the alloy itself albeit with a clear lacquer over the top. With this being the case you can't fill/weld as the added material would be visible through the clear coat.
Pretty much spot on TN.

The other thing worth noting is that the clear lacquer finish is applied to the bare alloy (no primer), as a result most refurbers will only give something like a 6mth guarantee on the finish.

You only have to look at an older E46 M3 wheel that has got moisture between the lacquer and the face of the bare metal of the wheel to know how ugly that looks!
Moisture ingress is very easy on these wheels, you only have to take the wheels off and catching a nut on the lacquer is enough to puncture the finish which will allow the moisture in.
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      04-12-2011, 06:06 PM   #19
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Hotcoupe,

That's pretty much the picture I was building in my head. Diamond cut wheels, as beautiful as they look, are simply not worth the hassle on a daily driver.

I managed to keep my wheels looking pretty mint (after a small mishap on day 2 of ownership) for about 6 months...then while boarding the bastard Euro-Tunnel the narrow lane (no excuse) on the way to the upper level of the train got both my N/S wheels on the way to France. Then, while in France, after a 10 hour drive through The Alps (which was epic by the way) I managed to fuck the O/S wheels going into a car-park! I blame this one on tiredness/the ticket machine being on the wrong side!

Both careless mistakes but on a diamond cut wheel it would be much worse as they would have been totally knackered considering the winter we've just had.

As you say, the slightest touch can put a crack in the lacquer. Be it from a stone chip or whatever. Once it's cracked you're probably knackered because as the wheel heats up during driving and then cools you're going to exacerbate the problem and water ingress is inevitable.

Sheps, I hope you manage to get this sorted because I would be gutted.
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      04-13-2011, 02:10 PM   #20
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Well, negotiations lasted all of 3 minutes.
The result?
Simon 1 ATS 0
Two wheels on order at 480+VAT ea

That's one expensive mistake.

To be fair they held their hands up as soon as the saw the damage and they knew that refurbing wasn't an option without me forcing it down their throat.

I wonder how much the (unspoken but obviously present) threat of loosing our 30 vehicle fleet account influenced their viewpoint? Needless to say I won't be having them swap the tyres over once the new wheels get in.
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      04-13-2011, 02:39 PM   #21
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Nice one! One of my newly refurbed wheels got damaged when I had my tyres replaced. I was mighty peed off but the same wheel bubbled slightly so I managed to get the wheel re-done for free. Ideal.
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      04-13-2011, 02:45 PM   #22
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They will have to sell a lot of tyres to make that money back.

Credit to them for holding their hands up and doing the right thing in the end.
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