E90Post
 


ECS BMW
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > 335i Dyno Number



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-21-2007, 03:27 AM   #23
serge
Captain
 
serge's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 M3 ZCP (Sold) / '06 C6 Z06
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ramstein, Germany / Grovetown, GA

Posts: 764
iTrader: (0)

275-285 rwhp average on dynojets...I guesstimate 250-260 rwhp on Mustang dynos. Excellent numbers!
serge is offline   Germany
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 09:52 AM   #24
Insider
Captain
 
Insider's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 335i
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 4,500 feet above sea level

Posts: 710
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Hi guys,
Just one thing to look at. The correction factor down below. It says 1.06 which means that the actual, uncorrected numbers are 270whp and 281lbft (divide SAE corrected numbers by 1.06). Judging by the baro pressure at the bottom of the graph, the test was done well above sea level. This means that the dyno rightfully applied an altitude correction. The only problem is that altitude corrections are only reasonably accurate on naturally aspirated cars. Modern turbo cars, like the 335i, adjust boost pressure to compensate for thin air. So, in effect, the dyno results shown represent a double correction, once by the dyno and once again by the ECU. Nothing shady going on by any means. But the results are overstated in relative terms. It's just one of the things that happens when comparing dyno results taken in different conditions.

Cheers,
shiv
It sounds like he was in Vegas, which is 2,200 ft above sea level.
__________________
http://www.insiderpicks.com - The world's best stock picks.
Insider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 11:25 AM   #25
WilyB
Captain
 
WilyB's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 671
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Just one thing to look at. The correction factor down below. It says 1.06 which means that the actual, uncorrected numbers are 270whp and 281lbft (divide SAE corrected numbers by 1.06).
I am afraid SilverState will have to modify his signature!
WilyB is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 11:46 AM   #26
CoralRedPlz
restless
 
Drives: Space Grey, Coral Red 335i
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: around town

Posts: 485
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilyB View Post
I am afraid SilverState will have to modify his signature!
yeah, those original #'s just dont make any sense. i would defer to shiv's opinion on this one.
__________________
335i space, coral/gray poplar, step, loaded, but with no AS, AC or rear shade. Front lip painted and installed and springs going on this week. pics coming soon.
CoralRedPlz is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 02:46 PM   #27
Terry335
Banned
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Socal

Posts: 2,587
iTrader: (0)

There is no point in dyno-racing.
Terry335 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 02:51 PM   #28
soma4u
First Lieutenant
 
soma4u's Avatar
 
Drives: e92 335i
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: orlando, fl

Posts: 328
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by grkm3 View Post
oct...

are you planing on installing the procede?I'll take a stab and say this car will break 360whp with exh.procede,and 93oct
doubtful...
__________________
'07 E92 335I--RECEIVED 11/28!
'06 4-RUNNER SPORT ED
'04 G-35 COUPE (RETIRED)
soma4u is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 04:00 PM   #29
CASHBY
 
Drives: E90 335 "done up"
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: GARAGE

Posts: 2,117
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by soma4u View Post
doubtful...
Didnt shiv make 350-355whp on 93 octane?
CASHBY is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 05:37 PM   #30
musc
Major
 
musc's Avatar
 
Drives: 335is DCT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: S. Carolina

Posts: 1,204
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2004 E46 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEA 3 View Post
Didnt shiv make 350-355whp on 93 octane?
355 with exhaust and 93 octane.
__________________
E46 M3 | SMGII | OEM CSL 19s | D/A Race Software | OEM CSL Header | Dixis TI | Streamline Drop in filter | (sold)
E92 335is | DCT | JB4 G5 ISO | BB Flash | BMS DCI | BMS CP | BMS OCC | BMS O-Tstat | ETS 5" | Walbro GSL392 | 436/479 Dynojet
musc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 05:50 PM   #31
CASHBY
 
Drives: E90 335 "done up"
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: GARAGE

Posts: 2,117
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by catm3 View Post
355 with exhaust and 93 octane.
so he could do that as well maybe mroe.... but inflated #'s dont count.
CASHBY is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 05:55 PM   #32
musc
Major
 
musc's Avatar
 
Drives: 335is DCT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: S. Carolina

Posts: 1,204
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2004 E46 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEA 3 View Post
so he could do that as well maybe mroe.... but inflated #'s dont count.
True. He at least will be able to see the gains using the baseline numbers as a reference.

Hopefully we will see 380s or so with a DP and additional tuning. Also curious to see what 100 octane would add to the current setups.
__________________
E46 M3 | SMGII | OEM CSL 19s | D/A Race Software | OEM CSL Header | Dixis TI | Streamline Drop in filter | (sold)
E92 335is | DCT | JB4 G5 ISO | BB Flash | BMS DCI | BMS CP | BMS OCC | BMS O-Tstat | ETS 5" | Walbro GSL392 | 436/479 Dynojet
musc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 07:18 PM   #33
DrM
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2007 335i Montego Blue E90
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Mars

Posts: 225
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by catm3 View Post
True. He at least will be able to see the gains using the baseline numbers as a reference.

Hopefully we will see 380s or so with a DP and additional tuning. Also curious to see what 100 octane would add to the current setups.
Shiv thought that a 100 octane map would provide another 20whp or so. Given that the turbos are pretty much maxed out, I am unsure that the gain would be that large.
DrM is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 07:26 PM   #34
CASHBY
 
Drives: E90 335 "done up"
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: GARAGE

Posts: 2,117
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrM View Post
Shiv thought that a 100 octane map would provide another 20whp or so. Given that the turbos are pretty much maxed out, I am unsure that the gain would be that large.
its not the boost that is going to give us more power...its the timing that will give us more power.

in my A4 I ran same ammount of boost on race gas as I did pump gas...only difference when i put race gas in is i would bump timing up a bit and it makes about 50AWHP more wiht race gas.
CASHBY is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 09:26 PM   #35
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
 
shiv@vishnu's Avatar
 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,611
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState View Post
Exactly!
Yes, the dyno did apply an altitude correction as it was designed to do. The only problem is that it doesn't apply to the 335i which essentially applies its own boost correction to compensate for the high altitude. This makes the SAE corrected numbers in your sig file overstated. It's not your fault and you did nothing wrong. It's just one of the problems associated with one-size-fits all environmental corrections. Your car is right in line with just about every other car we've tested and there is nothing wrong with that

Shiv
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 09:55 PM   #36
musc
Major
 
musc's Avatar
 
Drives: 335is DCT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: S. Carolina

Posts: 1,204
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2004 E46 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState View Post
So in your opinion, a boost car would run the same et and mph on an altitude track as it would on a sea level track (providing traction is the same)?

Given your logic, the 335 should apply "its own boost correction to compensate for the high altitude"?
To a degree. The density of the air is still different. You will still have some loss. A stock 335i can compensate an extra 0.2 bar for elevation changes. Not sure if the PROcede still maintains that function.
__________________
E46 M3 | SMGII | OEM CSL 19s | D/A Race Software | OEM CSL Header | Dixis TI | Streamline Drop in filter | (sold)
E92 335is | DCT | JB4 G5 ISO | BB Flash | BMS DCI | BMS CP | BMS OCC | BMS O-Tstat | ETS 5" | Walbro GSL392 | 436/479 Dynojet
musc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 10:04 PM   #37
WilyB
Captain
 
WilyB's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 671
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Silver:

Which part of "The Dyno corrected by +6% for altitude for a non boosted car while your turboed 335's ECU did the same, thus you number are off by 6%" you did not get?
WilyB is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 10:05 PM   #38
musc
Major
 
musc's Avatar
 
Drives: 335is DCT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: S. Carolina

Posts: 1,204
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2004 E46 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState View Post
Less air at altitude. You must adjust for that. Ask any long time racer and they will tell you the same thing.
Yes, but what Shiv is saying that at your elevation, the the overboost feature is coming into effect. So when you use SAE correction, it makes your numbers slightly skewed because the ECU itself is already compensating for altitude. A NA car on the same dyno wouldn't have that benefit, so it'd be appropriate to use the correction.

Regardless, if you use the same dyno each time, with the same correction, you will still be able to gauge the gains of your future mods (exhaust, tuning, etc). The baseline number doesn't really matter unless you are some kind of dyno shoot out. Just dyno it the same way each time you make a change and you'll get the data you need.
__________________
E46 M3 | SMGII | OEM CSL 19s | D/A Race Software | OEM CSL Header | Dixis TI | Streamline Drop in filter | (sold)
E92 335is | DCT | JB4 G5 ISO | BB Flash | BMS DCI | BMS CP | BMS OCC | BMS O-Tstat | ETS 5" | Walbro GSL392 | 436/479 Dynojet
musc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 10:11 PM   #39
WilyB
Captain
 
WilyB's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 671
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState View Post
Incorrect, a turbo car, or any other car, makes less power at altitude. That is true even for BMWs.
You skipped Turbo 101, didn't you?
WilyB is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 10:15 PM   #40
musc
Major
 
musc's Avatar
 
Drives: 335is DCT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: S. Carolina

Posts: 1,204
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2004 E46 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState View Post
I don't think you get it. The ECU can try to do what it can to make power even at altitude, but the car will still make less power at altitude...hence the correction factor.

BTW, if you read my previous posts, you will see that I understand what a baseline is and how to use it.
Ok. The additional boost is forcing more air in. Regardless of density, the ECU will just force more air by increasing the boost to match the power levels at sea level. You are basically saying that there isnt enough buffer to match the power at sea level, but I'd disagree. 3 psi should be enough to compensate for your 2K elevation.
__________________
E46 M3 | SMGII | OEM CSL 19s | D/A Race Software | OEM CSL Header | Dixis TI | Streamline Drop in filter | (sold)
E92 335is | DCT | JB4 G5 ISO | BB Flash | BMS DCI | BMS CP | BMS OCC | BMS O-Tstat | ETS 5" | Walbro GSL392 | 436/479 Dynojet
musc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 10:20 PM   #41
musc
Major
 
musc's Avatar
 
Drives: 335is DCT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: S. Carolina

Posts: 1,204
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2004 E46 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState View Post
The turbo or supercharger helps at elevation, but the car will make less power...hence the correction. The turbo can only do so much.
I don't think you are understanding this. Yes, both NA and FI cars will loose horsepower at elevation. I think everyone agrees with this. And turbo cars lose less than NA at elevation. Yes. But the both still lose power, yes.

However, the 335i has the ability to automatically dial in more boost at elevation, up to an additional 0.2 bar. This closes the gap and allows to make same power as it if were at sea level.

Make sense? This is why someone mentioned it would be useful if they had recorded your boost during the dyno run.
__________________
E46 M3 | SMGII | OEM CSL 19s | D/A Race Software | OEM CSL Header | Dixis TI | Streamline Drop in filter | (sold)
E92 335is | DCT | JB4 G5 ISO | BB Flash | BMS DCI | BMS CP | BMS OCC | BMS O-Tstat | ETS 5" | Walbro GSL392 | 436/479 Dynojet
musc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 10:25 PM   #42
BMWPower06
A^M=G is nothing w/o the Power of ///M
 
BMWPower06's Avatar
 
Drives: ///M5 & ///M3
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Washington D.C.

Posts: 1,763
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to BMWPower06
wow impressive numbers for stock...
__________________
Indianapolis Red BMW ///M5
BMWPower06 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 10:31 PM   #43
musc
Major
 
musc's Avatar
 
Drives: 335is DCT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: S. Carolina

Posts: 1,204
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2004 E46 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState View Post
I understand just fine. And I agree that there is less of a difference with a forced induction car at altitude than with a n/a car.

Nevertheless, there is a difference, and that is why a correction factor is needed. People who race a lot know and understand this. So to say that there should be no correction on the dyno because it is a turbo, even if it is at elevation, is crazy.

I have been around racing awhile myself, including competing in IHRA.

The ECU negates the need for correction. If you had a turbo car with no ECU adaptation for elevation, then yes, you'd still use a correction.

No one said there should be no correction because its a turbo....that would be crazy...8.5 psi boost at sea level vs 8.5 psi 2500 feet = big difference in power.

What did say there should be no correction because its a turbo with an ECU that overboosts up 0.2 bar to compensate for elevation. ...8.5 psi boost at sea level vs 11.75 psi at 2500 feet = equal? you do the math

__________________
E46 M3 | SMGII | OEM CSL 19s | D/A Race Software | OEM CSL Header | Dixis TI | Streamline Drop in filter | (sold)
E92 335is | DCT | JB4 G5 ISO | BB Flash | BMS DCI | BMS CP | BMS OCC | BMS O-Tstat | ETS 5" | Walbro GSL392 | 436/479 Dynojet
musc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-21-2007, 10:33 PM   #44
musc
Major
 
musc's Avatar
 
Drives: 335is DCT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: S. Carolina

Posts: 1,204
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2004 E46 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState View Post
Let me ask again.

You take the same turbo car and run it at a sea level track and run it at an elevation track. If what the recent haters say is true, they should run the same on the track (et and mph) given the same traction, correct?

We all know that is not true.
Obviously. Please read what I wrote over and over. No one is a "hater" here. Just trying to help you understand.

At elevation, your car is running more boost than at sea level. The average turbo doesn't do this on its own. The 335i compensates for elevation.
__________________
E46 M3 | SMGII | OEM CSL 19s | D/A Race Software | OEM CSL Header | Dixis TI | Streamline Drop in filter | (sold)
E92 335is | DCT | JB4 G5 ISO | BB Flash | BMS DCI | BMS CP | BMS OCC | BMS O-Tstat | ETS 5" | Walbro GSL392 | 436/479 Dynojet
musc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:52 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST