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      03-21-2007, 10:36 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverState View Post
Wrong. Even a BMW turbo car will run slower at altitude.
Of course, you must be right. Thats why a 335i trapped 103-104 at LACR when stock ones have been trapping similar speeds. M3 same day, same track barely cracked 100.
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      03-21-2007, 10:45 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiXst3r View Post
How do you know that he didnt do a hard break-in to get these numbers?

Yeah I get what you are saying..thats a debate in itself, that I don't think will ever be solved
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      03-21-2007, 10:53 PM   #47
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the highest number i've seen so far, congrats man, that engine is a master piece
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      03-22-2007, 12:05 AM   #48
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Catm3 and silverstate,

I think you boths have some valid points. On one end Catm3 says that the unique 335I ECU adapts for the elevation changes by compensating it with boost(up to .2bars), correct.

On the other note, Silverstate says that in elevation you typically loose power, also correct.

If the 335I is capable of auto adjusting boost base on elavtion changes then the 335I should perform similar to a sea level 355i tested car with just the difference that the 335i at altitude would be running at more boost.

Since September 02 and after moving to Tucson AZ, I raced the last few cars I had in Tucson Speed International Raceway, and Firebird Internationa raceway(Phoenix).

So far, the cars I raced did not have any sort of compensation for altitude, in fact I lost boost when I go from Pheonix to Tucson dragstrip (going from 1248ft t0 3075ft).

Non of the previous turbocars that I raced in the last 5 years compensated for boost while gaining altitude. In the case of the Evos, I typically ran .2-.3sec slower in Tucson than in Phoenix and I lost about 2mph trap speeds.

My conclusion is that if the BMW 335i really compensate for altitude boost lost then the altitude shouldn't affect the performance much.

Unfortunately, the dragracing factor and experience on the 335 I is very very very new and very limited amount of people have actually taken their 335I to the track so I have my reservations on making further comments.



.2c

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      03-22-2007, 12:08 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catm3 View Post
I have been around racing awhile myself, including competing in IHRA.

The ECU negates the need for correction. If you had a turbo car with no ECU adaptation for elevation, then yes, you'd still use a correction.

No one said there should be no correction because its a turbo....that would be crazy...8.5 psi boost at sea level vs 8.5 psi 2500 feet = big difference in power.

What did say there should be no correction because its a turbo with an ECU that overboosts up 0.2 bar to compensate for elevation. ...8.5 psi boost at sea level vs 11.75 psi at 2500 feet = equal? you do the math


Why worry about it? If it makes Silver feel good to think he has the baddest 335i auto around that doesn't hurt anybody. The fact is pretty much everyone else reading the thread, including Shiv who has Dynoed literally close to 100 335i's knows that the numbers he got are in line with all the other 335i's since a 6% correction was applied that shouldn't have been. Whatever, its all good, lets all just enjoy our cars. At least for the next couple months since we all know once August hits all our cars are going to KABOOM anyway
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      03-22-2007, 12:11 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I View Post
Catm3 and silverstate,

I think you boths have some valid points. On one end Catm3 says that the unique 335I ECU adapts for the elevation changes by compensating it with boost(up to .2bars), correct.

On the other note, Silverstate says that in elevation you typically loose power, also correct.

If the 335I is capable of auto adjusting boost base on elavtion changes then the 335I should perform similar to a sea level 355i tested car with just the difference that the 335i at altitude would be running at more boost.

Since September 02 and after moving to Tucson AZ, I raced the last few cars I had in Tucson Speed International Raceway, and Firebird Internationa raceway(Phoenix).

So far, the cars I raced did not have any sort of compensation for altitude, in fact I lost boost when I go from Pheonix to Tucson dragstrip (going from 1248ft t0 3075ft).

Non of the previous turbocars that I raced in the last 5 years compensated for boost while gaining altitude. In the case of the Evos, I typically ran .2-.3sec slower in Tucson than in Phoenix and I lost about 2mph trap speeds.

My conclusion is that if the BMW 335i really compensate for altitude boost lost then the altitude shouldn't affect the performance much.


Unfortunately, the dragracing factor and experience on the 335 I is very very very new and very limited amount of people have actually taken their 335I to the track so I have my reservations on making further comments.

.2c

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Thats what I have been saying
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      03-22-2007, 12:12 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by radgator1 View Post
Why worry about it? If it makes Silver feel good to think he has the baddest 335i auto around that doesn't hurt anybody. The fact is pretty much everyone else reading the thread, including Shiv who has Dynoed literally close to 100 335i's knows that the numbers he got are in line with all the other 335i's since a 6% correction was applied that shouldn't have been. Whatever, its all good, lets all just enjoy our cars. At least for the next couple months since we all know once August hits all our cars are going to KABOOM anyway
Nooo.. not the KABOOM.

Reminds me too much of the early problems with the E46 M3. I really hope this oil temp issue gets solved by retrofitting engine oil coolers.
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      03-22-2007, 12:17 AM   #52
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i just can imagine if those number are to the wheels, what it "can" do with a PROcede in it....
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      03-22-2007, 12:20 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catm3 View Post
Thats what I have been saying

I heard ya! . They use to say that the WRX ecu"compensates" for altitude, I think otherwise. I use to drive to Mount Lemon in Tucson(8500-9000ft) and I also been to the top of Pikes Peak and my modded WRX was dying. No boost compensation of any kind, it just killed the engine.

It is ironic how some manufactuers make this"learning" ECUs but reality is a bit different. Obiviously the BMW is no joke, I think driving a 335I in altitude you wouldn't event notice any lost of power or tq due to its stellar engine performance.

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      03-22-2007, 09:58 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radgator1 View Post
Why worry about it? If it makes Silver feel good to think he has the baddest 335i auto around that doesn't hurt anybody. The fact is pretty much everyone else reading the thread, including Shiv who has Dynoed literally close to 100 335i's knows that the numbers he got are in line with all the other 335i's since a 6% correction was applied that shouldn't have been. Whatever, its all good, lets all just enjoy our cars. At least for the next couple months since we all know once August hits all our cars are going to KABOOM anyway
Well said
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      03-22-2007, 10:48 AM   #55
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just some more food for thought...I have seen many cars being dyno'd from turbo to supercharged to insainly done up NA....All of them lost power using the sae stadard from STD...If shivs thinks other wise...start posting the sae readings so we can compare apples to apples...

I can't believe no one here wants sae numbers...On most boards they are the only numbers accepted...Its what the whole internet community uses...being turbo or na...

Yes this dyno might read high but who cares its what his baseline is.I also think he has the best and flattest torque curve down low.

Just make sure you use the same gas and dyno for when you procede your car so we can keep it apples to apples...

a trap speed of your car would put this all to rest too lol
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      03-22-2007, 11:15 AM   #56
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The point here is that SilverState said his car makes 299 tq at the rear wheels. That is not correct. Looks at this article http://www.eurotuner.com/featuredveh...mw_335i_coupe/ It states the following "So what's under the 335i's hood? "We have two Mitsubishi turbos running at 0.6bar (8.8psi). These can boost to 0.8bar to compensate for altitude using the two electronically-controlled wastegates," Udo explained."

So the ECU can add an addtional 3psi of boost to compensate for altitude. At 2200 ft you are losing 1psi of boost. But with the 335, the ecu easily adds that boost back into the manifold. So the absolute boost pressure is the same as at sea level. The net result? No power loss with this engine at that altitude. Ok, maybe 1%. But why use a 6% correction like you would with a NA engine? So we can see that SilverStates results are over-stated.
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      03-22-2007, 11:44 AM   #57
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guys chill out...not all engines are built the same.Maybe he has a strong one maybe the dyno is showing more...This is the highest so far so until we see some sae numbers from a procede(wich I have asked for many times on this forum)we can't compare them to this.

to the op next time u dyno try and see if they can hook up a boost gage so we can see if the car is adding more boost than stock.

this reminds of the few strong e46 M3 back in the day that broke 285whp stock...every one in there mother would try to nit pick every detail to bring down the numbers.

edit heres an idea.call the shop up and ask for the STD numbers....anyone want to place bets that its even higher than the SAE numbers?
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      03-22-2007, 12:09 PM   #58
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Guys, his car isn't any stronger than anyone elses. When we tested in Colorado (really high altitudes) the baseline numbers were so high that we didn't even report them. In fact, we manually dropped the 1.25 correction down to a more reasonable 1.1 correction to get numbers to be "normal." In the case of Silverstate's car, I suspect the results are overstated by 4-5%. Yes, the car will lose a bit of power at his altitude, but not 6%. It's well within the altitude range that the factory ECU/turbosystem can adjust for. I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about

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      03-22-2007, 01:55 PM   #59
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It's well within the altitude range that the factory ECU/turbosystem can adjust fore.
I've been trying to tell him to change his signature to a more credible 272HP/283TQ...

The Renault F1 team scored its first ever pole position in a Grand Prix at Kyalami in 1979 with its twin-turbo V6 engine. Kyalami is famous for the strangling effect its 6,000ft elevation above sea level has on the power output of normal engines. Renault just had to dial in more boost et voilà!
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      03-22-2007, 02:28 PM   #60
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At this point, I can't believe that no one has said anything about how altitude affects spool up
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      03-22-2007, 06:17 PM   #61
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Quote:
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Hit the nail on the head.
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      03-23-2007, 02:26 AM   #62
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At this point, I can't believe that no one has said anything about how altitude affects spool up
I'm at 5500ft & you lose 300-400rpm spool-up at our elevation.
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      03-24-2007, 12:33 PM   #63
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I'm at 5500ft & you lose 300-400rpm spool-up at our elevation.
That's right. My Evo's spool-up lost 400-500 rpm at 6,500 ft. (Colorado Springs)
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      03-25-2007, 12:30 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Hit the nail on the head.
Unfortunately you think you have the hammer and you dont.Your not thinking in terms of FI here,your car compensated for the elevation.Thus turning out the higher numbers.Plain and simple,you have an everyday regular 335i.
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      03-25-2007, 02:01 PM   #65
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lil OT: what #;s are people getting with higher octane like 93, or does it not make a difference.
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      03-25-2007, 02:23 PM   #66
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I will get my car Dyno this week. Hopefully I will have a video of it and some good numbers.
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