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      05-16-2011, 09:18 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I still think you are reading DTC as a partly disabled function of DSC, in fact it is not described that way by BMW.

Problem is, BMW play fast and loose with how they use DTC (and Sport+ function in some models). They emphasis the safety issue in some descriptions, and its function, but a sportier drive in other descriptions.

But whatever way we read the detail, pressing the button activates a function, it switches DTC on, it doesn't switch DTC off. Traction control becomes dynamic.

HighlandPete
To be fair the warning shown on iDrive does say "DTC activated, DSC restricted" IIRC.
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      05-16-2011, 09:19 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Traction control becomes dynamic.

HighlandPete

hmmm...ok, if you read it in that sense....then your're right.... but my first though would be....Dynamic Traction Control ....is just Traction Control
...so if its activated, then traction is controlled by the electronics....

Deactivate it and its fun and sliding....

anyways, no big deal...

But lots of peeps got confused with DTC and DSC!....and its not the first thread on it!..
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      05-16-2011, 09:40 AM   #47
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i read the manual and this is what confused me lol BMW say it would be a good idea to briefly activate the traction control, but surely the traction control is on from default anyway
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      05-16-2011, 12:34 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZZ View Post
i read the manual and this is what confused me lol BMW say it would be a good idea to briefly activate the traction control, but surely the traction control is on from default anyway
I think the manual will state Dynamic Traction Control.
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      05-16-2011, 04:38 PM   #49
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What the dealer said when my dad picked his 325d up was that a single quick press of the DTC button turns the traction control on, for times such as on snow. To turn everything off you hold it down until a yellow warning light is displayed on the dashboard.
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      05-16-2011, 08:51 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post
I think the manual will state Dynamic Traction Control.
ok so it does, so in actual fact they are saying, turn off some of the driver aids for a safer journey in these hazardous conditions

because from what i gather from your posts, the car has maximum driver aids on as default, one short press of the DTC turns some of the driver aids off (but the car will still correct a slide to a certain extent) and then one long 3sec press turns off all driver aids.
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      05-17-2011, 02:38 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZZ View Post
ok so it does, so in actual fact they are saying, turn off some of the driver aids for a safer journey in these hazardous conditions

because from what i gather from your posts, the car has maximum driver aids on as default, one short press of the DTC turns some of the driver aids off (but the car will still correct a slide to a certain extent) and then one long 3sec press turns off all driver aids.

Bingo!

Default, full traction control

Press DTC a little bit of fun

Hold DTC, all aids off, annoying dash warning, but a lot of fun
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      05-17-2011, 03:19 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZZ View Post
one short press of the DTC turns some of the driver aids off (but the car will still correct a slide to a certain extent) and then one long 3sec press turns off all driver aids.
No.

ABS always remains on.



You can still get very sideways even with DTC.
But, the throttle will cut and brakes will be applied to stop a rotation.
I tried on track and it was impossible to rotate the car more than about 30degrees even in the wet in DTC mode.
And with some yaw on, the throttle is chopped anyhow.
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      05-17-2011, 03:38 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZZ View Post
ok so it does, so in actual fact they are saying, turn off some of the driver aids for a safer journey in these hazardous conditions

because from what i gather from your posts, the car has maximum driver aids on as default, one short press of the DTC turns some of the driver aids off (but the car will still correct a slide to a certain extent) and then one long 3sec press turns off all driver aids.
It's not so much about making the journey safer.

By default when the system is at it's most aggressive (i.e. not allowing ANY slip/yaw) you may find it difficult to actually get moving at all in snow/icy conditions.

This will be because as you try to pull away the rear wheels will likely start to spin, as soon as this happens the car will cut power and apply some braking force. You're not going anywhere fast in this situation.

By activating DTC the car will permit a little slip and in the aforementioned conditions it may allow you to get moving that little bit more easily.

The side effect of this is that, even in the dry, it means you can get the back end out a bit before the car cuts power or applies any braking force.

Bottom line is the following:

1. Every time you get into the car it is, by default, at it's safest settings. The car will not permit any slip (only the merest whiff at most). This might make it tricky to move off in snow/ice/muddy/other conditions of reduced grip.

2. A short press of the DTC button will ACTIVATE DTC. In this mode the car will permit some slip and yaw. Good for moving off in conditions of less than ideal traction or for having a little fun, coming out of junctions a bit sideways etc. If the slip/yaw gets too much the car will intervene and try to get things settled down again.

3. A long press of the DTC button will DEACTIVATE DSC entirely. The car will now do NOTHING to get you out of trouble regardless of how badly wrong you get it. This is where the system differs from other manufacturers. I think in Mercs, even with the system disabled if you get it really badly wrong the system will eventually try to intervene and attempt to save your ass.

Finally, regardless of which mode you are in, if you get it properly wrong none of the on board safety systems is going to save you. In extreme enough situations the laws of physics will take over and you will end up going backwards through a hedge/ditch/lamppost/person/another car (delete as appropriate).
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      05-17-2011, 04:08 AM   #54
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I agree.

its a bloody good system though.

Push its limits on track and its quite incredible how much stupidity it will negate.

The system can do one thing a driver cannot - brake individual wheel brakes.
So its ability to recover a slide is quite impressive.
And the 3er as many cars settles nicely in a turn with aggressive braking that stabilises the chassis.
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      05-17-2011, 04:16 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post
Finally, regardless of which mode you are in, if you get it properly wrong none of the on board safety systems is going to save you. In extreme enough situations the laws of physics will take over and you will end up going backwards through a hedge/ditch/lamppost/person/another car (delete as appropriate).
+1 It is for that reason it is best that most drivers leave it on default.

Certainly if we do use the options, we need to be really focused, as someone said in a previous post. So easy to lapse when we are used to certain reactions.

I used to drive with a colleague who was an Ex Naval Commander and naval pilot, which made him a brilliant driver. I've never been with a more switched on driver, once at the wheel he was totally commited, senses and reactions heightened, and so observant. But even he ended up losing an E30 (no DSC of course) coming off a roundabout.

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      05-17-2011, 08:38 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post
It's not so much about making the journey safer.

By default when the system is at it's most aggressive (i.e. not allowing ANY slip/yaw) you may find it difficult to actually get moving at all in snow/icy conditions.

This will be because as you try to pull away the rear wheels will likely start to spin, as soon as this happens the car will cut power and apply some braking force. You're not going anywhere fast in this situation.

By activating DTC the car will permit a little slip and in the aforementioned conditions it may allow you to get moving that little bit more easily.

The side effect of this is that, even in the dry, it means you can get the back end out a bit before the car cuts power or applies any braking force.

Bottom line is the following:

1. Every time you get into the car it is, by default, at it's safest settings. The car will not permit any slip (only the merest whiff at most). This might make it tricky to move off in snow/ice/muddy/other conditions of reduced grip.

2. A short press of the DTC button will ACTIVATE DTC. In this mode the car will permit some slip and yaw. Good for moving off in conditions of less than ideal traction or for having a little fun, coming out of junctions a bit sideways etc. If the slip/yaw gets too much the car will intervene and try to get things settled down again.

3. A long press of the DTC button will DEACTIVATE DSC entirely. The car will now do NOTHING to get you out of trouble regardless of how badly wrong you get it. This is where the system differs from other manufacturers. I think in Mercs, even with the system disabled if you get it really badly wrong the system will eventually try to intervene and attempt to save your ass.

Finally, regardless of which mode you are in, if you get it properly wrong none of the on board safety systems is going to save you. In extreme enough situations the laws of physics will take over and you will end up going backwards through a hedge/ditch/lamppost/person/another car (delete as appropriate).
Thanks man for clearing this up, you explained it so much better than even BMW themselves
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      05-17-2011, 12:38 PM   #57
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I found DSC and T/C a pain in the arse. Generally speaking made the car harder to drive (for me). It pushes on alot, with it completely disabled it's a far more capable car (dependant on driver) and I found the car was far easier to drive on the limit. An LSD would enhance the car even further.

But in all honesty T/C and DSC can save lives for joe blogs types and yummy mummy's when suddenly faced with a lack of traction.
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      05-17-2011, 01:05 PM   #58
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In all seriousness, if DSC (or any other traction/stability control system) is hampering someone's progress in any major way in day to day road driving I would suggest that they are driving in a manner not befitting of the public highway.

On the track/drag-strip it's a completely different matter of course.
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      05-17-2011, 01:10 PM   #59
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I completely disagree. Coming out a roundabout with
half throttle DSC cuts in in a standard 335d
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      05-17-2011, 01:14 PM   #60
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Half throttle would make for a pretty aggressive entry/exit onto a roundabout surely?

Assuming you're not straight-lining it you'd be hanging the back out a bit no?
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      05-17-2011, 01:20 PM   #61
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-Ill refrase it, I mean half throttle applied semi-aggressively no speed limit broken, no iussue.

Yes it does cut in, without it the car has a miniscule amount of slip and leaves the roundabout quicker and safer, with less wear to the rear brakes due to the DSC/TC.

Overtaking dangerously, not knowing how to drive quickly and being careless is not befitting on a public highway, to drive a car very fast, but in a safe manner is not a problem.

I had it completely disabled for months, I drive quickly and capably. I am a far far safer driver than 99% of other drivers on the road, and thats with me driving quickly.
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      05-17-2011, 01:35 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post
In all seriousness, if DSC (or any other traction/stability control system) is hampering someone's progress in any major way in day to day road driving I would suggest that they are driving in a manner not befitting of the public highway.

On the track/drag-strip it's a completely different matter of course.
completely disagree TN!!!...

Lots of times, I found the system cutting power/ braking at the wrong time!....and its all because it was in wet condition and I was driving off a junction/ slip road and wanted get out as quickly as possible and all the car did was "not move"! ....and the the fast approaching lorry wasn't happy! ....

day to day/ normal driving condition is DSC/DTC is too "sensitive"..... and the rears brakes get used up aswell!!!....

All these technology stuff are really removing all the pleasures of driving a car....like the 5 series option that has "automatic parking assistance".....WTF....and now i read somewhere that cars can drive themselves?!.....wtf!!! ...I even feel weird when i use cruise control!!!....
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      05-17-2011, 01:43 PM   #63
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I;ve only had one incident of it cutting in at an inopportune moment and that was pulling out of a side road onto a fast flowing A-road.

I agree it was a pain in the ass but that's the one time it's happened in my ownership of the car.

I don't find it a regular problem...
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      05-17-2011, 01:47 PM   #64
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Then I feel your driving a mile miles away from the cars limits.

Never had it cut in mid bend? That's the reason I have it off!
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      05-17-2011, 01:59 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
Then I feel your driving a mile miles away from the cars limits.

Never had it cut in mid bend? That's the reason I have it off!

How come when I kept switching it off at The Ring, you kept putting it back on?
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      05-17-2011, 02:02 PM   #66
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Because I wasn't overly keen on you driving without it Mate!!!!!!!!
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