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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Where are the PMW vs PPS logs



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      05-18-2011, 04:24 PM   #1
RambleJ
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Where are the PMW vs PPS logs

Seriously? We keep seeing threads from someone who has never ran meth give it reviews and state how awesome it is
Ofcourse it is going to cool your IAT's and make your car faster! That is what all meth kits do. But why and how is the PWM better than a PPS and I don't want to hear why I want datalogs to show it. Until then, we can beleive it is all marketing, can we not?
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      05-18-2011, 04:27 PM   #2
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I can post some up tonight if you would like. I'm only a single nozzel right now and controled by a HSF-3, so my logs may or may not be different than the ones with Shiv's kit.

*edit and the placement of my bung is in a bad spot.....working on getting this corrected soon and adding a 2nd.
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      05-18-2011, 05:06 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
Seriously? We keep seeing threads from someone who has never ran meth give it reviews and state how awesome it is
Ofcourse it is going to cool your IAT's and make your car faster! That is what all meth kits do. But why and how is the PWM better than a PPS and I don't want to hear why I want datalogs to show it. Until then, we can beleive it is all marketing, can we not?
LOL I've been saying this since day one. glad to see at least one other person here isn't privy to bullshit marketing tactics.
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      05-18-2011, 05:09 PM   #4
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Well... if anyone in this area gets the PWM kit, I'd ba happy to do back to back logs.

Shouldn't be too hard, simply log the PPS first. Then disconnect it and install the PWM setup and log some more
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      05-18-2011, 05:12 PM   #5
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What are you mad about? Instead of being angry and asking someone else to do this for you, why don't you do the comparison and share it with the community? Believe what you want to believe.
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      05-18-2011, 05:49 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by scottp999 View Post
What are you mad about? Instead of being angry and asking someone else to do this for you, why don't you do the comparison and share it with the community?
That's not the way of the Internet warrior, my friend.

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Believe what you want to believe.
That they will do!
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      05-18-2011, 05:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
That's not the way of the Internet warrior, my friend.



That they will do!
Are you offering the same satisfaction guarantee on these as you are on the Procede?
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      05-18-2011, 06:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottp999 View Post
What are you mad about? Instead of being angry and asking someone else to do this for you, why don't you do the comparison and share it with the community? Believe what you want to believe.
Because he doesnt have both...
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      05-18-2011, 06:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottp999 View Post
What are you mad about? Instead of being angry and asking someone else to do this for you, why don't you do the comparison and share it with the community? Believe what you want to believe.
I would except for the fact that I do not have a V4/V5.

It should be extremely simple for Vishnu to perform this type of scenario since i believe their old kit was a PPS and their new one obviously is a PWM. For some reason they haven't shown any back to back improvement logs. Take a step back from the Vishnu teet and ask yourself why..
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      05-18-2011, 06:18 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by gbreeE90 View Post
Because he doesnt have both...
Yeah but the point is that nobody does yet. But like I said, I am more than willing to help out making this comparison happen
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      05-18-2011, 06:19 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by biz77 View Post
Are you offering the same satisfaction guarantee on these as you are on the Procede?
We can't really offer the same deal on fuel systems as we do electronics. Simply because we can't resell a used fuel system. Whereas with electronics, we can simply reprogram them on the bench, put them in the tester and they are as good as new. Same reason no one offers a satisfaction guarantee on things like exhaust systems, intercoolers, etc,. Just not feasible.
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      05-18-2011, 06:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
Seriously? We keep seeing threads from someone who has never ran meth give it reviews and state how awesome it is
Ofcourse it is going to cool your IAT's and make your car faster! That is what all meth kits do. But why and how is the PWM better than a PPS and I don't want to hear why I want datalogs to show it. Until then, we can beleive it is all marketing, can we not?
I still don't get the naming. All of the progressive kits are PWM based. The only reference I've ever seen to this "PPS" name is from Aquamist sales people. If we're going to call traditional PWM kits "PPS / progressive pump speed' then the Aquamist kits should be called "PSO / progressive solenoid opening" or similar.

Any of the CMGS controllers can PWM a high speed solenoid. CM even has a solenoid that can stand higher pressure (and thus offers better atomization) than the Aquamist counterpart. One of these days I'll post some logs showing the differences at part throttle. Which will be underwhelming. And at WOT there is no difference.

Mike
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      05-18-2011, 06:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
I would except for the fact that I do not have a V4/V5.

It should be extremely simple for Vishnu to perform this type of scenario since i believe their old kit was a PPS and their new one obviously is a PWM. For some reason they haven't shown any back to back improvement logs. Take a step back from the Vishnu teet and ask yourself why..
Please give the conspiracy theory a rest. It doesn't a fuel injection specialist to understand the benefits of treating methanol like a fuel (pwm metered via fuel injector based on boost, throttle angle, temp, etc,.) as apposed to just opening a floodgate via two state (0 or 100%) solenoid based upon boost. It works very. It doesn't do anything wrong. And consumes very little meth.

This week, we have two retrofit kits to install. Which means that they are coming in with PPS kits and leaving with PWM kits. Shiv has already talked with one of the owners in temporarily rigging it up so that both kits are installed in parallel and are switchable without much hassle. Perhaps those results will make some people happy. Or perhaps they will insist that they are rigged/unfair. At the end of the day, we have better things to do than try to convince people that the world isn't flat
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      05-18-2011, 06:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I still don't get the naming. All of the progressive kits are PWM based. The only reference I've ever seen to this "PPS" name is from Aquamist sales people. If we're going to call traditional PWM kits "PPS / progressive pump speed' then the Aquamist kits should be called "PSO / progressive solenoid opening" or similar.

Any of the CMGS controllers can PWM a high speed solenoid. CM even has a solenoid that can stand higher pressure (and thus offers better atomization) than the Aquamist counterpart. One of these days I'll post some logs showing the differences at part throttle. Which will be underwhelming. And at WOT there is no difference.

Mike
Coolingmists entry to the PWM meth control market was met with complete and utter failure. This is why they don't offer it. They were trying to run the solenoid at some absurdly high frequency which yielded a miserable dynamic range. All this stuff is well documented on the evo and subaru forums. I know you mean well but please don't re-write history.

Also Mike, the PPS nomenclature for variable speed pump set up is perfectly adequate. The pump is not physically toggling between two states (on/off). There is too much rotor inertia for it to behave like an on/off solenoid. Instead, the PWM signal going to the pump simply controls the rotational speed of the pump internals. Hence the term PPS (progressive pump speed).

Whereas a PWM system actually meters flow based upon two solenoid states (open or closed) that closely follows the PWM control signal (unlike that of a PPS system). There is nothing "progressive" about the solenoid opening. It's either open or closed. The transition time between the two states is incremental. The only thing progressive is the fluid flow out of the nozzle.

Last edited by Calvin@Vishnu; 05-18-2011 at 06:41 PM..
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      05-18-2011, 06:33 PM   #15
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Great, I'm looking forward to IAT and ignition logs from a conventional meth kit vs the PWM.
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      05-18-2011, 06:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu View Post
Coolingmists entry to the PWM meth control market was met with complete and utter failure. This is why they don't offer it. They were trying to run the solenoid at some absurdly high frequency which yielded a miserable dynamic range. All this stuff is well documented on the evo and subaru forums. Please don't re-write history.
I am pretty sure they knew how to fix whatever failed. There just werent enough benefits from the PWM system to continue offering it.
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      05-18-2011, 06:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbreeE90 View Post
I am pretty sure they knew how to fix whatever failed. There just werent enough benefits from the PWM system to continue offering it.
That is partly correct. If you do anything poorly, it's not worth doing.
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      05-18-2011, 06:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu View Post
Coolingmists entry to the PWM meth control market was met with complete and utter failure. This is why they don't offer it. They were trying to run the solenoid at some absurdly high frequency which yielded a miserable dynamic range. All this stuff is well documented on the evo and subaru forums. I know you mean well but please don't re-write history.

Also Mike, the PPS nomenclature for variable speed pump set up is perfectly adequate. The pump is not physically toggling between two states (on/off). There is too much rotor inertia for it to behave like an on/off solenoid. Instead, the PWM signal going to the pump simply controls the rotational speed of the pump internals. Hence the term PPS (progressive pump speed).

Whereas a PWM system actually meters flow based upon two solenoid states (open or closed) that closely follows the PWM control signal (unlike that of a PPS system). There is nothing "progressive" about the solenoid opening. It's either open or closed. The transition time between the two states is incremental. The only thing progressive is the fluid flow out of the nozzle.
You mean PSO? All the CM kits listed on my site are PWM. Their new high speed solenoid is pretty good. Holds up to 200psi and is much more durable than Aquamists. Cheaper too.

As a side note I noticed your new kit picks up the meth from the washer fluid line like BMS' new kit. Cool stuff huh? Makes install really easy and you get to use the entire washer fluid reservoir rather than just the top 2/3rds. Any idea of the washer reservoir piping and rubber seats can withstand pure methanol for long? A leak there could result in a major fire.

Mike
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      05-18-2011, 06:58 PM   #19
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I've run 100% meth more than a few times in the washer fluid tank in the past 1.5 years of having my meth kit and there are no leaks. I don't run 100% meth in the car daily as that'd be absurd. 50/50 is more than adequate for a daily driver setup. Higher concentrations are track setups and should be emptied out once done at the track.

In terms of PWM vs PPS the benefits I personally see are basically that you'll end up using less meth over time and probably achieve the same benefit of charge cooling. When it comes to octane enhancement through meth injection it really doesn't matter which kit you use. In the end, if I were to buy a meth kit TODAY and it was my first one I would definitely go for the PWM kit as it provides finer control. I might change (note I didn't say "upgrade") to a PWM kit down the road if I get into auto-x racing. So far I've only been a 1/4 mile junkie and for that a PWM kit doesn't make a measurable difference against PPS.
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      05-18-2011, 06:58 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
I would except for the fact that I do not have a V4/V5.

It should be extremely simple for Vishnu to perform this type of scenario since i believe their old kit was a PPS and their new one obviously is a PWM. For some reason they haven't shown any back to back improvement logs. Take a step back from the Vishnu teet and ask yourself why..
One thing to remember is that this is not a tune vendor, or car manufacturer specific issue. Arguments for or against the two types of systems rage on in many types of car forums. It's almost like a religious argument.

I don't have both systems yet, but I voted with my wallet opening, and you can vote by keeping yours closed.

If I go log the old system, and then the new (which i don't have yet), guess what will happen? If there are benefits shown a certain population of people will dispute all or some of the variables. If there are no benefits shown a certain population of people will dispute all or some of the variables.

If someone wants to do the experiment, present the findings, just be prepared for a long thread where everyone rips apart your data. Not worth the time IMHO, just go enjoy the car no matter how you decide to spray your methanol.
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      05-18-2011, 07:01 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
You mean PSO? All the CM kits listed on my site are PWM. Their new high speed solenoid is pretty good. Holds up to 200psi and is much more durable than Aquamists. Cheaper too.

As a side note I noticed your new kit picks up the meth from the washer fluid line like BMS' new kit. Cool stuff huh? Makes install really easy and you get to use the entire washer fluid reservoir rather than just the top 2/3rds. Any idea of the washer reservoir piping and rubber seats can withstand pure methanol for long? A leak there could result in a major fire.

Mike
If they do leak it doesn't take very long to replace. It took maybe 10 min to have the reservoir out. Not a big deal at all.
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      05-18-2011, 07:03 PM   #22
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If they do leak it doesn't take very long to replace. It took maybe 10 min to have the reservoir out. Not a big deal at all.
I don't think leaking should be the main concern. Fire is the problem here. Anything over 50/50 that touches hot parts such as manifolds/turbos/oil housing will leave your car burnt down to the ground.
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