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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Finally Active Autowerke Software+Exhaust+BOV



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      03-30-2007, 12:28 PM   #45
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More little kids in the forum, maybe you should put your thinking cap back on and go sit in the corner little boy, there are grown men speaking here. First off let me tell you guys something, i dont favor any company i just like to purchase a good product, im a consumer and thats all. AA is getting a better 1/4 mile because they are using drag radials and they are running in moroso, which is if im correct pretty much a sea level track. Im going to put on my Procede when i get it, slap on some DR's and my exhaust then take my car to Famoso raceway, then we'll see whats up cause that track is like 600 ft above sea level.
Nice reply but it has nothing to do with my post. I think grown men should be ashamed of bragging about "drag radials". Put a 26x10 ET Drag on there and tell me who's the grown man.

I can also do without the Fomoso lecture; I've probably taken 100 passes there in various 10 second cars over the years. For my money, it's a pretty crappy track. I always preferred Carlsbad on an outlaw day, but lately Irwindale 1/8th mile is the "best hooking" track in southern California.
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      03-30-2007, 12:31 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by bimport View Post
Facts:
Active Autowerks
Years tuning BMWs: 25+

Vishnu
Years tuning BMWs: less than 1

I think AA has a little more experience tuning BMWs than Shiv does.
I wouldn't argue your facts because obviously there are there however Shiv has much more experience tuning turbo cars and even alcohol/methanol systems.

Another thing is that any tuners has the same amount of experience time on this BMW 335I for the simple fact that it is a very new car so everyone had to start from scratch.

I wouldn't understimate Shiv skills, he is offering a well researched and developed product. Maybe other BMW tuners have 15-20-25 years experience on the BMW but since the 335i is a new model they all start from the same point.

my .2c

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      03-30-2007, 12:32 PM   #47
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Nice reply but it has nothing to do with my post. I think grown men should be ashamed of bragging about "drag radials". Put a 26x10 ET Drag on there and tell me who's the grown man.

I can also do without the Fomoso lecture; I've probably taken 100 passes there in various 10 second cars over the years. For my money, it's a pretty crappy track. I always preferred Carlsbad on an outlaw day, but lately Irwindale 1/8th mile is the "best hooking" track in southern California.
Its still an 1/8 not a 1/4 and famoso is 10x better than LACR. Why should someone be ashamed of DR, thats how the AA car got its better time, its a one legger car dude it needs some help until theres a LSD for it. And you said you wanted some drama so dont bitch when you get it
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      03-30-2007, 12:33 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Terry Burger View Post
Nice reply but it has nothing to do with my post. I think grown men should be ashamed of bragging about "drag radials". Put a 26x10 ET Drag on there and tell me who's the grown man.

I can also do without the Fomoso lecture; I've probably taken 100 passes there in various 10 second cars over the years. For my money, it's a pretty crappy track. I always preferred Carlsbad on an outlaw day, but lately Irwindale 1/8th mile is the "best hooking" track in southern California.
Terry, SoCal is apparently just trying to stir things up as usual. From his earlier posts, he is 24 with too much time on his hands and lots of bravado. He is probably one of those people where you just smile, nod, and walk away rather than waste the energy.
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      03-30-2007, 12:40 PM   #49
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Yes, it's nice to have options, and I'm in S. FL so for those of us here, it's a good option. However, just to be fair, rflow's sub 13 sec. 0-60mph time was with his AA-tuned XEDE 335i AND AA exhaust and drag radials. I think those of us that are getting very close to rflow's times with just the PROcede and stickier non-RFTs definitely says something good about the PROcede, since that's $1,300 vs. rflow's AA-tuned setup for 2x the retail cost as the PROcede Stage 0. I'm sure with a PROcede Stage 1 setup (PROcede + exhaust), ppl will surely see mid 12 sec. 1/4 mi. times as well.
I think you are probaly right. In fact I wont be surprised if someday not too long from now we see a 335i get into the 11's but whether or not that could be done on stock turbos would be the question. I would bet that Omar is already looking at downpipes, larger intercooler, etc. One thing for sure, its fun to be in the game at this early stage and we all will have plenty to look forward to for years to come with our 335i's.
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      03-30-2007, 12:43 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
So, in those 5 months of developing, tweaking, troubleshooting, diagnosing, travelling, etc,. all we really accomplished was cutting 4 wires and doing something that any local speed shop can do? I wish i knew where these speed shops were so i could use them myself. Who needs to in-house development when you can get someone else to do it for you?

shiv
Your shop seems to have a solid reputation and Iím sure youíve been tuning a long time, so donít take this is a dig at you. Iím just trying to ďkeep it realĒ here.

Connecting the Xede is really not much different than connecting a Tec-2 (or back in the day, Accel DFI). The first trick is figuring out which wire goes to which sensor, or in the case of Xede, which sensor you want to manipulate. There are literally hundreds of tuners across the nation capable of adapting and configuring a Tec-2, a complete engine management system, to any car under the sun. So why canít those shops adopt a much simpler piggy-back device?

I donít want to discount what youíve done and Iím sure there were unique challenges in implementing the Xede in the 335i, but I just donít see it as the herculean effort that others seem to make it out to be. Props for doing it first.
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      03-30-2007, 12:46 PM   #51
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Terry, SoCal is apparently just trying to stir things up as usual. From his earlier posts, he is 24 with too much time on his hands and lots of bravado. He is probably one of those people where you just smile, nod, and walk away rather than waste the energy.
Hey DR. Moron you're right i do have too much time on my hands thats why my car has so many more mods than yours does. Dont get all butthurt and stop sticking up for your boyfriend im sure he can speak for himself. You wouldnt need to smile nod and walk away from me, id be laughing at you before any argument even started.
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      03-30-2007, 12:46 PM   #52
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Why would people discount the facts that I posted? There is no dispute about how long they have been tuning BMWs.

I have no affiliation with AA. I'm just tired of everyone that thinks that Shiv's products are the be all and end all when it comes to tuning. AA has a proven track record that Shiv just does not have yet.
So you joined a year ago and never posted anything. Then...in the span of a few hours you start posting like crazy - all in support of a certain product.

There is no dispute about how long they have been tuning BMWs. BUT you are implying through that statement that they will be better at tuning the 335i, a new type of vehicle (FI vs. NA), than someone who doesn't have 25+ years experience. That is a very weak argument, at best.

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      03-30-2007, 12:50 PM   #53
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Terry, SoCal is apparently just trying to stir things up as usual. From his earlier posts, he is 24 with too much time on his hands and lots of bravado. He is probably one of those people where you just smile, nod, and walk away rather than waste the energy.
It's ok, guys like this make me want to modify the car more just so I can smash them at the track.
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      03-30-2007, 12:52 PM   #54
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It's ok, guys like this make me want to modify the car more just so I can smash them at the track.
Im in the SFV and you're in Simi... Why wait for a track?
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      03-30-2007, 12:55 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimport View Post
Facts:
Active Autowerks
Years tuning BMWs: 25+

Vishnu
Years tuning BMWs: less than 1

I think AA has a little more experience tuning BMWs than Shiv does.

+1

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      03-30-2007, 12:59 PM   #56
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Your shop seems to have a solid reputation and I’m sure you’ve been tuning a long time, so don’t take this is a dig at you. I’m just trying to “keep it real” here.

Connecting the Xede is really not much different than connecting a Tec-2 (or back in the day, Accel DFI). The first trick is figuring out which wire goes to which sensor, or in the case of Xede, which sensor you want to manipulate. There are literally hundreds of tuners across the nation capable of adapting and configuring a Tec-2, a complete engine management system, to any car under the sun. So why can’t those shops adopt a much simpler piggy-back device?

I don’t want to discount what you’ve done and I’m sure there were unique challenges in implementing the Xede in the 335i, but I just don’t see it as the herculean effort that others seem to make it out to be. Props for doing it first.
Terry,
Implementing a piggy-back and getting it to work properly is much much more difficult to do than installing a stand alone. This is because you are tuning a computer that is tuning a computer that is tuning an engine. As opposed to a standalone where you are simply tuning a computer that is tuning an engine. In the former, you must not only know how to tune the engine (which is the easy part), you must also know how what signals to modify, how to modify them, under what conditions, and with what limits in order to:

1) Get the desired output
2) And not trigger any diagnostic faults in the OE computer you are tuning

Then you have to address adaptation issues to make sure that the tune you implemented is stable. And doing this with virtually no documention on how the factory ECU works internally isn't simple. This is where the 5 months and 18k miles of in-house testing comes in. And then again, travelling all over the place and beta testing with a control group. This work isn't necessary with a standalone because you are directly controlling a somewhat dumb computer that is controlling the engine. It's not pretty but at least what you see immediately is what you get.

We started our business selling bolt-on engine control systems (using Tec-II no less) and how things have chaged with respect to R&D requirements when it came to the Xede and then again with the PROcede. The end results are better but the road to get there is a helluva lot longer, bumpier and poorly lit. This is why other tuning shops, who have been tuning for a long time need to start with a product that we already developed. Don't you think they would use something new and different if it were that easy?

-shiv
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      03-30-2007, 01:11 PM   #57
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Hey Everyone,
We should keep it friendly in this post because person insults are childish and unnecessary. Most people are here just to discuss and get a better idea of the product, which may or may not seem like a good deal to you, as a consumer. I think we would definitely need some dyno graphs from AA, but I'm sure that horses and torque aren't everything.

If the car and hook better with a less torque, then it actually benefit the 335i's 1/4 mile. However, at this early stage, we have only seen one prototype of the product (AA) and only 1 sub-13s run, so at the same time, we should still research more about the product.

The main pitfall of Shiv's ProCede is that it just isn't making the car run "that" much faster compared to stock times. I think a lot of the customers were expecting mid-12s runs, given the enormous gains on the dyno graphs and great personal feedbacks. At this time, the facts that are available to us show Procede running 4.5s vs 4.8-4.9s (stock) 0-62mph. Given that the Procede has increased hp and tq by almost 1/4th the car's original whp/wtq, I think people were expecting a bit more, or maybe even too much...

There is also the case of different tracks and running conditions. But even taking those factors into account and adjusting the procede's #'s, most people are still only hitting 12.8-12.9s on the 1/4 mile which is 0.2-0.3s slower than the AA tune.

Hey Shiv, maybe you can retune your 335i when it comes back from the bodyshop and when you have time. I think trying various hp/tq combinations and testing them in similar conditions may give us a better idea of how fast the 335i can really run. For instance, you might want to detune the Procede's tq on the lower powerband, so that the car can get traction right away or something... Anyway, I wish AA and Shiv the best of luck, and healthy competition is always good competition, since it will only benefit us consumers

For clarafication, Shiv was the initial tunner to use Xede than produce Procede. Therefore, in some aspects, other tunning shops are copying and using his original idea. Too bad Shiv didn't put a patent or something like that on his product =/ But the fact still remains, businesses are always going to take the easiest and most efficient route to develop and market their products. Hence, Shiv developed the ProCede which differentiated his product from all the other tuners that are emerging now. But at the end of the day, consumers/enthusiasts are still looking for the best deal, most reliable product, w/ the fastest times... Doing business is a blood-bath and often people could care less about how much you've invested in developing the original product, only what we can gain (sad but true of most businesses)
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      03-30-2007, 01:36 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2b3k View Post
If the car and hook better with a less torque, then it actually benefit the 335i's 1/4 mile. However, at this early stage, we have only seen one prototype of the product (AA) and only 1 sub-13s run, so at the same time, we should still research more about the product.
Didn't their prototype car have drag radials? And didn't it trap ~2mph slower than ours (also with exhaust?) To be fair, we do have a 6MT so we're not camparing apples to apples. Different tracks and octane too. But i'm not sure using their car has an example of what customers see themselves is a good idea. Same goes for our car too, of course. Best is to look at the results that end-users are seeing.

As for having to use drag radials to hook up, it's true for the time being. Launching a car that makes 400+lbft of torque at 2500rpm on stock run flats is tough. Especially after rolling through a water box. Shiv is in the process of fixing that in the software. This means no need to get your hands dirty with wheel/tire mounting/unmounting

-D
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      03-30-2007, 01:50 PM   #59
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From an unbiased view, I have not yet purchased a piggy-back from AA or Vishnu, but some things that I would just like to point out after reading the responses in this thread are that even though Shiv has less then a year working on BMW's, the 335 is still a turbo car and he has a ton of experience with tuning other turbo cars (Evo, STi, etc) and at the end of the day a turbo car is a turbo car and tuning can be applied from one platform to another. As far as AA goes, yes, they do have more experience with BMW's, but a lot of that was with NA engines. However, unlike how someone else pointed out that it was with all NA BMW's, they have also developed tuning for SC'd and Turbo'd BMWs in the past that were offered with their FI kits so they are not new on the scene when it comes to FI. At the end of the day I would advise anyone in the market for tuning to do your own research to decide which would suit you best, and to just be happy that we now have choices from what we know are competent, experienced tuners. Just because they both have products out now doesn't mean that one is the end all say all, and the other is crap. I'm looking forward to seeing what both Shiv and AA are developing for the 335 in the future.
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      03-30-2007, 01:54 PM   #60
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Hey Everyone,
We should keep it friendly in this post because person insults are childish and unnecessary. Most people are here just to discuss and get a better idea of the product, which may or may not seem like a good deal to you, as a consumer. I think we would definitely need some dyno graphs from AA, but I'm sure that horses and torque aren't everything.

If the car and hook better with a less torque, then it actually benefit the 335i's 1/4 mile. However, at this early stage, we have only seen one prototype of the product (AA) and only 1 sub-13s run, so at the same time, we should still research more about the product.

The main pitfall of Shiv's ProCede is that it just isn't making the car run "that" much faster compared to stock times. I think a lot of the customers were expecting mid-12s runs, given the enormous gains on the dyno graphs and great personal feedbacks. At this time, the facts that are available to us show Procede running 4.5s vs 4.8-4.9s (stock) 0-62mph. Given that the Procede has increased hp and tq by almost 1/4th the car's original whp/wtq, I think people were expecting a bit more, or maybe even too much...

There is also the case of different tracks and running conditions. But even taking those factors into account and adjusting the procede's #'s, most people are still only hitting 12.8-12.9s on the 1/4 mile which is 0.2-0.3s slower than the AA tune.

Hey Shiv, maybe you can retune your 335i when it comes back from the bodyshop and when you have time. I think trying various hp/tq combinations and testing them in similar conditions may give us a better idea of how fast the 335i can really run. For instance, you might want to detune the Procede's tq on the lower powerband, so that the car can get traction right away or something... Anyway, I wish AA and Shiv the best of luck, and healthy competition is always good competition, since it will only benefit us consumers

For clarafication, Shiv was the initial tunner to use Xede than produce Procede. Therefore, in some aspects, other tunning shops are copying and using his original idea. Too bad Shiv didn't put a patent or something like that on his product =/ But the fact still remains, businesses are always going to take the easiest and most efficient route to develop and market their products. Hence, Shiv developed the ProCede which differentiated his product from all the other tuners that are emerging now. But at the end of the day, consumers/enthusiasts are still looking for the best deal, most reliable product, w/ the fastest times... Doing business is a blood-bath and often people could care less about how much you've invested in developing the original product, only what we can gain (sad but true of most businesses)
Nice discussion and in many ways, your assessment is accurate. However, again, just to be fair, rflow's 12.68 sec. 1/4 mi. time at the Moroso track in Jupiter, FL was with his AA Stage 1 tuned 335i (AA XEDE + AA exhaust + drag radials). I think that given the right track or road conditions, we will begin to see PROcede Stage 0 and Stage 1 equipped 335i's getting similar 1/4 mi. times. So far, AFAIK, the only PROcede 335i's which also have aftermarket exhausts (like CEA 3) and have been to the track -- have been to other tracks in CA; different from the sea-level Moroso track here in S. FL.
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      03-30-2007, 02:10 PM   #61
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Typically, DR's will reduce your time(on a good launch) about .5 seconds. I noticed a difference when I used them on my m3 vs. stock tires with reduced air.

Anyone can claim they have a faster time when they arent on the same playing field. How about you run a 100m race with dress shoes, and Ill wear running shoes. If we have equal abilities, I think Ill win. Same thing.

Until you get both cars side by side on the SAME track, this whole argument is moot.
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      03-30-2007, 02:18 PM   #62
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Nice discussion and in many ways, your assessment is accurate. However, again, just to be fair, rflow's 12.68 sec. 1/4 mi. time at the Moroso track in Jupiter, FL was with his AA Stage 1 tuned 335i (XEDE + AA exhaust + drag radials). I think that given the right track or road conditions, we will begin to see PROcede Stage 0 and Stage 1 equipped 335i's getting similar 1/4 mi. times. So far, AFAIK, the only PROcede 335i's which also have aftermarket exhausts (like CEA 3) and have been to the track -- have been to other tracks in CA; different from the sea-level Moroso track here in S. FL.


Everyone is aware of the differences in variable between days and different tracks but enough of the disclaimers already. How many times do you have to post this same thing in the same thread? There is nothing fair or unfair about noting rflow has the fastest time. IT IS the fastest pass for a 335i posted at the top of the list at dragtimes period. If you want to put up a meaningful disclaimer or argument post a faster timeslip.
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      03-30-2007, 02:29 PM   #63
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Everyone is aware of the differences in variable between days and different tracks but enough of the disclaimers already. How many times do you have to post this same thing in the same thread? There is nothing fair or unfair about noting rflow has the fastest time. IT IS the fastest pass for a 335i posted at the top of the list at dragtimes period. If you want to put up a meaningful disclaimer or argument post a faster timeslip.
Whatever, dude. What have you been doing to contribute to this discussion? Where's your PROcede, XEDE, Turbo Tuner, AA-tuned 335i times?

The two main reasons I've been actively involved in all of this is 1. because I think A LOT of ppl on E90Post.com want to see this info, even if my times so far weren't from track timeslips (it seems quite obvious that my times are fairly accurate given tools I have to work with) and 2. Quite simply, it's fun.

I don't do my timed runs and share them with all of you b/c I feel like I need to brag about how fast my PROcede-equipped 335i is; I do it b/c all of us on this Forum are generally excited about our 335i's; those of us that have (or will have) a PROcede-equipped 335i want to know if spending an extra $1,300 will actually provide you with a better performing BMW 335i. There is nothing wrong with sharing that info, even if it's repeated...it's called "having an intelligent discussion," folks.
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      03-30-2007, 03:11 PM   #64
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Whatever, dude. What have you been doing to contribute to this discussion? Where's your PROcede, XEDE, Turbo Tuner, AA-tuned 335i times?

The two main reasons I've been actively involved in all of this is 1. because I think A LOT of ppl on E90Post.com want to see this info, even if my times so far weren't from track timeslips (it seems quite obvious that my times are fairly accurate given tools I have to work with) and 2. Quite simply, t's fun.

I don't do my timed runs and share them with all of you b/c I feel like I need to brag about how fast my PROcede-equipped 335i is; I do it b/c all of us on this Forum are generally excited about our 335i's; those of us that have (or will have) a PROcede-equipped 335i want to know if spending an extra $1,300 will actually provide you with a better performing BMW 335i. There is nothing wrong with sharing that info, even if it's repeated...it's called "having an intelligent discussion," folks.

Where did I say you shouldn't contribute by posting your Belltronics times? I think they are very interesting even though everyone knows they have to be taken with a grain of salt. But I believe most of us on the forum have the level of comprehension to recall what you wrote 5 posts earlier so posting the same thing again by phrasing it as "again..." may pass as discussion but not necessarily "intelligent" discussion.

PS: I'll be posting up some info info on a mod to my car I'm having done tomorrow that I think some folks will find interesting. After that I will probably head out to Irwindale one of these weeks on Thursday night for some 1/8 mile passes. Perhaps Terry and some others will be interested in going as well.
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      03-30-2007, 03:17 PM   #65
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Instead of all these 0-60 and 1/4 times, Id like to see 60-100 6th gear runs. I want to see how much midrange effect the tuners have vs. stock.
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      03-30-2007, 03:25 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post
Instead of all these 0-60 and 1/4 times, Id like to see 60-100 6th gear runs. I want to see how much midrange effect the tuners have vs. stock.
I think the PROcede will rule all others in that performance test since he is making the most torque by far. I am not really sure how much real world application that test would have though since 60-100 would be a 3rd-4th gear roll
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