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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Finally Active Autowerke Software+Exhaust+BOV



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      03-30-2007, 03:33 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radgator1 View Post
I am not really sure how much real world application that test would have though since 60-100 would be a 3rd-4th gear roll
Real world scenario. Im on I95 heading to Philly and the speed limit is 65. Im cruising at 70-75 in 6th gear. I want to get in left lane and start passing people. Im not going to drop 3 gears to burn a ton of fuel. I want to know top gear passing power.(dont get into the semantics of how much fuel id burn by staying in the same gear either)

But hey, if you want to test cruising at 65mph in 3rd gear and going to 100, please try it and get me some times.
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      03-30-2007, 03:54 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post
Real world scenario. Im on I95 heading to Philly and the speed limit is 65. Im cruising at 70-75 in 6th gear. I want to get in left lane and start passing people. Im not going to drop 3 gears to burn a ton of fuel. I want to know top gear passing power.(dont get into the semantics of how much fuel id burn by staying in the same gear either)

But hey, if you want to test cruising at 65mph in 3rd gear and going to 100, please try it and get me some times.
Well in that case I think you can be assured you will have plenty of passing power in any 335i with or without any mods. Since I have a Step, if I am cruising at 60-70 on a crowded freeway (we dont have any other kind here in SoCal) I'm probably going to be in DS 5th. When I hit it, my car is going to drop 2 gears to third and stay there till close to redline then shift to 4th which will take me way above 100 so I am just thinking of a real world 60-100pulls you were referring to. I personally am not really that concerned abut gas mileage, especially in a passing situation.

For max torque from a piggyback, PROcede is the way to go. In fact there is little reason to doubt that Shiv's product offers the most HP and Torque currently so is probably the fastest from a roll in most situations.

However take a look at AA's advertisement on the top of this page. Notice it says "Exhaust, software, BOV & MUCH MORE" coming soon for e90 and e92. Since these guys specialize in FI kits it seems very likely the so much more is the stuff the hardcore tuners are going to be interested in so it might make a lot of sense to go all Active Autowerke if you have no plans to stop at modding an ECU upgrade.
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      03-30-2007, 03:57 PM   #69
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I would like to hear the differance between the race exhaust and the street exhaust.

Oh and get dyno numbers on it also.

I know britalman is comming out with a cat back and testing down pipes for the car. So I might end up waiting for that system.

My buddy with an e39 m5 has a britalman exhaust on it and it sounds mean and looks very nice
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      03-30-2007, 04:02 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperM3 View Post
Instead of all these 0-60 and 1/4 times, Id like to see 60-100 6th gear runs. I want to see how much midrange effect the tuners have vs. stock.
This is actually a pretty common test, and somewhat more real-world than 0-60. It also is much less driver biased (assuming the method of timing is consistent) because there arent issues with launching and shifting.

Only thing I may add is a 5th gear 60-100 run may be more appropriate, considering it would use more of the rev range, and the proceed and others shine up top where the OEM tends to lose power.
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      03-30-2007, 04:04 PM   #71
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Seems crazy that people would argue over all this. I don't see anything wrong with two good products. Competition is good for the consumer. Nothing wrong with having choices. Shiv has really proven himself in the BMW arena. No doubt that the PROcede is really impressive. AA has been at this a LONG time. I am sure if AA is using the Xede, they will make the most of it. I am sure someone will have the AA setup soon with some rwhp/tq figures.
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      03-30-2007, 04:55 PM   #72
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Lets be honest here though. For $2700 you get a BOV, Exhaust, and AA's Xede (Thats alot for a great price). The way i see it: You can get a great performance upgrade, a BOV, and a great sounding exhaust for $1300 more than just PROcede. Slower or not, thats a deal! You get more for your money with the AA performance package. I have no affiliation with AA and I havn't tuned my 335 at all yet (i've had it for 3 days). I'm going to wait for little while before i mod my 335. If Shiv can come out with his exhaust and give me a good price, i might re-evaluate my position on the AA - Vishnu argument. Shiv, AA is giving you competition. Offer a good price on a PROcede, Exhaust package (quad exhaust would be a plus) and you will have my business and many other 335 owner's business, guarenteed!
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      03-30-2007, 05:18 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishFlush03 View Post
Lets be honest here though. For $2700 you get a BOV, Exhaust, and AA's Xede (Thats alot for a great price). The way i see it: You can get a great performance upgrade, a BOV, and a great sounding exhaust for $1300 more than just PROcede. Slower or not, thats a deal! You get more for your money with the AA performance package. I have no affiliation with AA and I havn't tuned my 335 at all yet (i've had it for 3 days). I'm going to wait for little while before i mod my 335. If Shiv can come out with his exhaust and give me a good price, i might re-evaluate my position on the AA - Vishnu argument. Shiv, AA is giving you competition. Offer a good price on a PROcede, Exhaust package (quad exhaust would be a plus) and you will have my business and many other 335 owner's business, guarenteed!
He already has MANY 335 owner's as customers. He certainly doesnt need yours.
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      03-30-2007, 05:22 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Terry,

We started our business selling bolt-on engine control systems (using Tec-II no less) and how things have chaged with respect to R&D requirements when it came to the Xede and then again with the PROcede. The end results are better but the road to get there is a helluva lot longer, bumpier and poorly lit. This is why other tuning shops, who have been tuning for a long time need to start with a product that we already developed. Don't you think they would use something new and different if it were that easy?

-shiv
I think your PROcede implementation is pretty cool and don't want people to misconstrue my comments as thinking otherwise, but I disagree with your assertion that implementing a piggyback system is more difficult (or even close) to tuning a stand-alone system.

With the piggy back system you have a control system to throw a flag if you’re going the wrong way, and its easy to observe just your changes because the car is already tuned in a ‘known good state’. You’re just adjusting the sensor signals until you get the desired effect (e.g. more boost, less timing, richer AF ratio, etc) at the rpm/load you’re looking at. If you go too far and throw a code, you just clear the code and go less next time.

I think anyone familiar with a Tec-2 is going to have a pretty strong grasp on how the factory system works; it’s almost identical (except for turning itself on for diagnostics, how bizarre!). You’re selling yourself a little short on this.

Now, with respect to other shops taking off where you left off (implying they are capitalizing on your work), how exactly does that work? Maybe I’m missing something but aside from the rumor that a shop tried to download one of your beta Xede maps, how does your work with the Xede impact another shops work with the Xede? Did you provide “hints” to rigging it on the 335i that Xede’s manufacturer is now sharing with other shops?
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      03-30-2007, 06:58 PM   #75
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sorry havent read through all the novels....
im looking for a good exhaust, for a good price...
any thoughts? 3" pipes? is that a good deal?

Thx
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      03-30-2007, 07:26 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichP View Post
This is actually a pretty common test, and somewhat more real-world than 0-60. It also is much less driver biased (assuming the method of timing is consistent) because there arent issues with launching and shifting.

Only thing I may add is a 5th gear 60-100 run may be more appropriate, considering it would use more of the rev range, and the proceed and others shine up top where the OEM tends to lose power.
I know it is a common test though I really dont understand it and there is nothing real-world about it to me. I go from 0-60 real fast a helluva lot more often than I go 60-100 in a one gear pull, either 5th or 6th. I mean what the hell would I want to see how fast I can go 60-100 in 6th gear for? A lot slower than I can do it in 3 then 4th I'll guarantee you that. But like I said, I have no doubt PROcede will rule in this test due to the massive wheel torque.
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      03-30-2007, 07:46 PM   #77
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I think your PROcede implementation is pretty cool and don't want people to misconstrue my comments as thinking otherwise, but I disagree with your assertion that implementing a piggyback system is more difficult (or even close) to tuning a stand-alone system.
Hmmm.... maybe something is wrong with me then. Because I can install and tune a standalone in a day. In a car I've never seen before. And I know i'm not the only one. But typical development time for a complete, fully functional, bug-free PROcede/Xede application is several months. And I've been doing that for the last 5 years.

-shiv
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      03-30-2007, 07:55 PM   #78
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Well, I've seen quite a few good points being made, since I posted my novel, lol At the end of the day, competition is always good because it forces both sides to improve and appeal to the consumer. Danil @ shiv, i think your/shiv's idea sounds interesting If Shiv has time, trying out a new tune can probably benefit those of us who aren't planning on getting DR's etc... This is what I love about Vishu, they are really customer oriented, whenever we bring up a question or idea, Shiv usually takes it into account.

The reason I said that maybe Shiv should try different tunes (i.e. with less torque) is that running down a race track w/ stock tires and maybe getting sub-13's will actually impress some of those AA-lovers. Obviously most of us know that Shiv can tune the most power (hp & tq) out of the 335i. Even radgator admitted it b/c he said that "the ProCede would blow away AA from a higher gear pull (60-100mph) since it had more torque".

Maximizing both hp & tq for those who plan on getting DR's, LSD, exhaust and the whole package is definitely the way to go hardcore tunners. However, I believe that there are quite a few people who are just looking into a ProCede and maybe an exhaust or DR's that can give them the best 0-60mph and 1/4 mile run. Therefore, being a good businessman, I think Shiv should take this into account and see what he can modify to improve the track times a bit more for us "novice tunners"

Also, I hope CEA3 does some more runs soon, b/c i think maybe ppl are waiting for him to prove/showcase that Shiv's ProCede can meet or even beat AA's exhaust + tune. This is a reasonable comparison b/c CEA3, I believe has an exhaust, ProCede, and DR's... but his 335i has a MT, so maybe the AMT can shift faster and more consistantly than human... Hehe, Steptronic FTW I'm one of those lazy/novice tunners who wants to get the fastest speed possible (even if it means getting the AMT over the MT), while keeping the car as much of a daily ride as possible, not a track machine, haha
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      03-30-2007, 08:00 PM   #79
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^ Please don't start an AT vs. 6MT war here. No matter how fast an auto can shift it will never give you the same driving experience as a manual can.
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      03-30-2007, 08:05 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Hmmm.... maybe something is wrong with me then. Because I can install and tune a standalone in a day. In a car I've never seen before. And I know i'm not the only one. But typical development time for a complete, fully functional, bug-free PROcede/Xede application is several months. And I've been doing that for the last 5 years.

-shiv

Shiv my man,

I wouldn't worry too much about what Terry is saying. Even as a novice, I can tell that he's just giving you a difficult time. Don't mind him, he can talk all the talk he wants, but he wasn't the 1st person to implement the Xede into the 335i. And he sure as hell isn't the first person to develop the ProCede. Last but not least, he isn't the first guy to maximize both hp & tq in the 335i. Even AA with all their years of exp. in BMW's, can't out-tune you

However, I believe that we can always improve, and since you've proven your superiority at maximizing hp & tq in the 335i. We just need you to design and test a configuration that can give the 335i a better track slip for novice tunners who want to keep most parts of their car stock, even the tires. As for hardcore tunners who want the most HP & TQ, and plan on doing major modifications, I think your current tune works perfectly for them. They probably just need an LSD, better tires, and a bit more practice this goes for both AMT + MT (i.e. getting accustom to the 335's huge amounts of torque).

BoostedBMW: I meant it as a joke, haha. I know the reason why people choose MT over AMT (driving experience, not necessary fastest shifts) Also the little ego thing... haha, you could probably brag to all your buddies that you can outshift a computer if you practiced enough, hehe

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      03-30-2007, 09:21 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Terry,
Implementing a piggy-back and getting it to work properly is much much more difficult to do than installing a stand alone. This is because you are tuning a computer that is tuning a computer that is tuning an engine. As opposed to a standalone where you are simply tuning a computer that is tuning an engine. In the former, you must not only know how to tune the engine (which is the easy part), you must also know how what signals to modify, how to modify them, under what conditions, and with what limits in order to:

1) Get the desired output
2) And not trigger any diagnostic faults in the OE computer you are tuning

Then you have to address adaptation issues to make sure that the tune you implemented is stable. And doing this with virtually no documention on how the factory ECU works internally isn't simple. This is where the 5 months and 18k miles of in-house testing comes in. And then again, travelling all over the place and beta testing with a control group. This work isn't necessary with a standalone because you are directly controlling a somewhat dumb computer that is controlling the engine. It's not pretty but at least what you see immediately is what you get.

We started our business selling bolt-on engine control systems (using Tec-II no less) and how things have chaged with respect to R&D requirements when it came to the Xede and then again with the PROcede. The end results are better but the road to get there is a helluva lot longer, bumpier and poorly lit. This is why other tuning shops, who have been tuning for a long time need to start with a product that we already developed. Don't you think they would use something new and different if it were that easy?

-shiv

Sorry Shiv I disagree that's why their are so many people tuning aem's, Bigstuffs and motecs for example with terrible drivability. It's easy to go on the dyno and tune for wot anybody with minimal skills can do that with the stand alones. Get it to idle and drive like stock no matter what the engine temp or outside conditions are at light and part throttle then you are actually tuning.
The procede-xede box does not have to do that, the factory ecu takes care of all that. It's funny how people on the net always want to bash each other over product differences. I personally like my xede/AA box and have been happy with the results and as soon as the ecu flash is finished i will take the car back to the track and post the results with out any jabs or claims of superiority .
Either way your customers are happy with your product and support, plus you are selling a lot of boxes so what else matters.

Like i said in another thread come down to Active if time permits and take a tour and talk to the guys and you will quickly realize that it has nothing to do with rip-off and development, no pun intended. Their ecu-flash should be ready soon which will offer yet another option for the consumer.
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      03-31-2007, 06:41 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Facts:
PROcede
Digital inputs: 4
Digital outputs: 4
Analog inputs: 4
Analog outputs: 4

Xede
Digital inputs: 1
Digital outputs: 2
Analog inputs: 3
Analog outputs: 3

Digital inputs/outputs are for on/off waveform signals such as crank timing, cam timing, vehicle speed, etc,.. Analog inputs/outputs are for 0-5v signals such as bar, MAP, o2, etc,.

There are a number of reasons we stopped developing, distributing, supporting the Xede after 5 years. But they really don't belong here. But the info above is a bit more pertinent.

shiv
Oh give up on this pathetic drivel! :mad:

Facts:
Unless you release some new feature, (and even if you did, that doesn't change what the current Procede users have right now), the current PROcede install actually uses only
1 Digital Input,
1 Digital Output,
1 Analogue Input, and
2 Analogue Outputs
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's what is needed to tune the 335! The XEDE has easily sufficient Inputs and Outputs to make the power/torque and drivability that we all expect from these fine vehicles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Burger View Post
I don't know why but I'm a sucker for forum drama. So, just to get the flame wars going:

Buying a device from a manufacture and connecting 4 wires is not exactly developing, its implementing. Using software someone else wrote to fill out a parameters table is not programming, its configuring.

Shiv implemented and configured the Xede device to work on the 335. Any numbers of hundreds of national and local speed shops are capable of doing the same thing. People seem to think because Shiv posted on this forum first that somehow he invented tuning, the idea of piggy back systems, or that his Xede work has anything to do with AAs Xede work. Give me a break!
I would not suggest Shiv's original work with the XEDE was done less than diligently and to the best of his ability, but simply that, for reasons suitable to Vishnu, he stopped doing any development on the XEDE during the Beta testing early this year. He started development on, and now sells the PROcede.

I would however agree with Terry, now that other talented tuners all around the country (and the world) have access to the XEDE, they can use their own skills to generate tuning solutions for the 335. The solutions may be different for each tuner, even when using the same, or similar devices. Different products from different suppliers may be targeted with different priorities in mind, not just maximum power and torque only.

Just for reference, AA has ordered their own very special version of the XEDE and new XMap operating software for the 335.

How about we let AA get on with what they've been doing very successfully for many years - tuning forced induction BMW's. Then they can bring their products to you and you can all make your own final decisions on purchasing them or not.

Cheers
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      03-31-2007, 08:28 AM   #83
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How about some pictures of the exhaust installed? Can't tell how nice it looks laying on the floor.
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      03-31-2007, 08:46 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyBimmerDude View Post
He already has MANY 335 owner's as customers. He certainly doesnt need yours.
Now was that totally necessary? A simple "Shiv has many customers already. He doesn't need to attract many other customers, because he is alread having alot of sucess with PROcede." Also, as a vendor, his job is to offer the best product to 335 owners for a good price. Shiv wants to get EVERY 335 owner to buy his products, including me. He wants all the business he can get. Fundamental rule of any type of sale. So to put it quite briefly: You're an ignorant asshole.
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      03-31-2007, 08:50 AM   #85
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Hold on a minute people, I need to go get my bullet proof jacket before I read all the posts on this thread !

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      03-31-2007, 10:52 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
That's because we developed both products.

Shiv
So, all you are saying is that we (Vishnu Tunning) developed the both programs, however, they kind of changed it, and started selling it given that the PROcede has a high demand? In a way this makes sense, they found a opportunity to sell something to a lot of people.
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      03-31-2007, 11:45 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftcoastman View Post
At the end of the day, though, there's a AA Tuned 335i that ran a quicker 1/4 mile. I'm not by any means a drag racer (I prefer carving canyons) but I think most guys will judge a product by that sort of "evidence". I mean, we all want more power, but generally speaking, I think wanting more power is just a proxy for wanting more SPEED. At the end of the day, people care about how fast you can get to 60mph or 100mph or 1320 feet, not how much you carry under the hood.

This is incorrect.
The AA tuned car was on Drag Radials
Shiv's car was on the stock Run Flat tires and they spun WAY too much to get traction and therefore low ET's.

Shiv's PROcede tuned car had higher trap speeds which is the measure of the power, not the ET's.

And my car, with ONLY a PROcede (no exhaust, no custom tune for exhaust, no Drag Radials, no 93 Octane, in a heavier sedan and at 600 feet higher elevation trapped only 1.4 mph slower than the only AA tuned car's results so far. Just the 93 Octane tune and elevation difference would give me that 1.4 mph, throw in catback exhaust, and the PROcede tune for the exhaust, and it would put it a couple mph faster (witness Shiv's trap speeds). Throw in the drag radials and the ET's would be lower too. But ET's ONLY mean something at the DRAGSTRIP...it means little in "everyday" driving out on the street, even less if the ET's were accomplished on drags or drag radials that are NOT used on the street!
It's the trap speeds that MEAN something out on the street.
And most "runs" on the street take place from a roll...any "racer" will know that and it's supported easily by the amount of videos on Streetfire or youtube of street races, the vast majority of which are from a roll.

Someone could have the "top position" on drag times for a particular car, but what difference would that make if the guy who has the #3 spot has a video of himself pulling away from the #1 guy on the street time and time again??
Who do you think the public is going to say has the faster car??

I'm all for competition and consumer choices, but let's compare apples to apples.
You can't compare one car that's more modified to another and then say that's "evidence" of more speed and therefore power.

Last edited by Driver72; 03-31-2007 at 12:27 PM.
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      03-31-2007, 12:35 PM   #88
Driver72
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Just correcting for the elevation difference alone (to sea level) would of put my time at 12.98 @ 108.08 mph.

I'm pretty d@mn happy with the PROcede. I paid $1300 for it and that included installation by Shiv.

Thanks again Shiv.
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