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      05-31-2011, 02:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
I think you may have a few misconceptions but I would be happy to clear some up for you.

First and foremost me as well as many others can and do run methanol with stock downpipes.

However here are a few things to note.

The only way to improve efficiency of your turbo's is via intercooler or downpipes.

Methanol will actually not improve efficiency of the turbo's themselves but have them work harder cause you are increasing boost.

Methanol wont improve your gas mileage, reduce oil temps, or make your turbo's run cooler. (unless you spray methanol onto the turbo's themselves but that will greatly reduce longevity of the turbo's even more so). Thats a little past the scope of this thread though.

****

The whole idea of methanol injection is simply this:

With a full bolt on pump gas car you would find about 15 PSI is a safe area of boost. Methanol injection regardless of modifications can run 17 even 18 PSI no problem.

Its not that it improves turbo efficiency, in fact none whatsoever.

All it simply does is cool down the intake charge right before the motor, and increase effective octane which in turn allows you to run more boost.

Hope this helps clear up some confusion.
I believe you run meth with all 4 cats as well?
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      05-31-2011, 02:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
I didnt mean to cut u down at all. I also studied this stuff btw..

I think we are saying the same thing. I interpreted your previous statement incorrectly. If you look at it it can be interpreted as the catt ADDS o2 to the exhaust kinda like an injection system where it eventually runs out. However, if you read the wiki post, catalytic systems can store the o2 that it "breaks down" from the original exhaust gases, specifically from NOx to N2 and O2, then "releases" it later.

In otherwords, I thought u were saying that catts will run out of o2 to inject... rather than they "can" store the o2 that is broken down from NOx and release it later.
Ohhhh ok lol sorry then it was just a miss understanding. Ya that would be more like secondary air injection. I'm glad we are on the same page. My first post wasn't that clear I can see how it was confusing.
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      05-31-2011, 02:19 PM   #25
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From Wiki:

Oxygen storage

Three-way catalytic converters can store oxygen from the exhaust gas stream, usually when the air-fuel ratio goes lean.[6] When insufficient oxygen is available from the exhaust stream, the stored oxygen is released and consumed (see cerium(IV) oxide). This leanness occurs either when oxygen derived from NOx reduction is unavailable or certain maneuvers such as hard acceleration enrich the mixture beyond the ability of the converter to supply oxygen.


Also one thing you can clear up for me if im wrong... My understanding is that the precious metal catalysts (platinum, rhodium or whatever) in our cats are never consumed. they are catalysts. When the catt becomes ineffective, it is probably through heat cycling/ excessive heat and deposits from exhaust materials that deteriorate the precious metals. It doesnt become ineffective due to higher octane actually... in fact higher octane = lower EGT meaning maybe longer catt lifespan (youll probably run cooler when pushing the car). The only reason why higher octane would lower the lifespan is due to materials or simply race conditions where you push the car harder so EGTs are still higher than street conditions.
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      05-31-2011, 03:59 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
From Wiki:

Oxygen storage

Three-way catalytic converters can store oxygen from the exhaust gas stream, usually when the air-fuel ratio goes lean.[6] When insufficient oxygen is available from the exhaust stream, the stored oxygen is released and consumed (see cerium(IV) oxide). This leanness occurs either when oxygen derived from NOx reduction is unavailable or certain maneuvers such as hard acceleration enrich the mixture beyond the ability of the converter to supply oxygen.


Also one thing you can clear up for me if im wrong... My understanding is that the precious metal catalysts (platinum, rhodium or whatever) in our cats are never consumed. they are catalysts. When the catt becomes ineffective, it is probably through heat cycling/ excessive heat and deposits from exhaust materials that deteriorate the precious metals. It doesnt become ineffective due to higher octane actually... in fact higher octane = lower EGT meaning maybe longer catt lifespan (youll probably run cooler when pushing the car). The only reason why higher octane would lower the lifespan is due to materials or simply race conditions where you push the car harder so EGTs are still higher than street conditions.
Great point. Because yea your right the cat should be running cooler with the meth spraying and egts should be down. The higher concentration of hydrocarbons (meth) combined with the heavier loads of always stomping it, will have egt's consistently higher than normal and that will damage the cat over time.
Once a customers car came in with really bad leaky injectors. The car had lots of unburned hydrocarbons and it caused the cat to get extremely hot and literally melt. So I've seen what too many hydrocarbons can do to a cat. Meth is like having more hydrocarbons, the temperature of the gas may be lower but the concentration of HC's is higher. I'm wondering if its just a myth that meth will cause the cats to go out sooner. I'm curious as to if there is any scientific data that could support this.
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      05-31-2011, 04:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (-(ellblazer420 View Post
Great point. Because yea your right the cat should be running cooler with the meth spraying and egts should be down. The higher concentration of hydrocarbons (meth) combined with the heavier loads of always stomping it, will have egt's consistently higher than normal and that will damage the cat over time.
Once a customers car came in with really bad leaky injectors. The car had lots of unburned hydrocarbons and it caused the cat to get extremely hot and literally melt. So I've seen what too many hydrocarbons can do to a cat. Meth is like having more hydrocarbons, the temperature of the gas may be lower but the concentration of HC's is higher. I'm wondering if its just a myth that meth will cause the cats to go out sooner. I'm curious as to if there is any scientific data that could support this.
great... i have a feeling running on the track where the ecu is dumping extra fuel/ super rich to keep temps down cant be good for my hfcs...

Looks unavoidable. Either the ECU will run super rich without meth because of higher IATs, or the meth will add to the HCs but lower EGTs..
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      05-31-2011, 04:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
great... i have a feeling running on the track where the ecu is dumping extra fuel/ super rich to keep temps down cant be good for my hfcs...

Looks unavoidable. Either the ECU will run super rich without meth because of higher IATs, or the meth will add to the HCs but lower EGTs..
Meth is not adding HC cause of the closed loop fuel system. With open loop during WOT yes, but not on n54.

when tunned you are running much richer than stock, plus the added fuel to support higher hp. If HC destroy cats, there's no avoiding it when tuned.

EDIT: Nevermind, you are talking about octane... sorry.
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      05-31-2011, 05:11 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
Methanol will actually not improve efficiency of the turbo's themselves but have them work harder cause you are increasing boost.

Methanol wont improve your gas mileage, reduce oil temps, or make your turbo's run cooler. (unless you spray methanol onto the turbo's themselves but that will greatly reduce longevity of the turbo's even more so). Thats a little past the scope of this thread though.

The whole idea of methanol injection is simply this:
With a full bolt on pump gas car you would find about 15 PSI is a safe area of boost. Methanol injection regardless of modifications can run 17 even 18 PSI no problem.

Its not that it improves turbo efficiency, in fact none whatsoever.
All it simply does is cool down the intake charge right before the motor, and increase effective octane which in turn allows you to run more boost.

Hope this helps clear up some confusion.

I tried to explain all of this to these guys but gave up..this is what i said the turbos would see ridcuolus duty cycles b/c of how hard they woruld work and longevity of your engine/turbos will be an issue... now u have heard it from someone who is more expert..still think you will get longevity with.. meth 16 psi and stock DPs??
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      05-31-2011, 05:15 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
FYI catts dont work like this at all. Catalysts by definition are not consumed during the chemical reaction, but they assist or expedite the process. Nor do they add o2 to make the exhaust "cleaner".
+1

Once i saw that post i knew it was not gonna be worth my time..but some people who know their stuff have finally chimed in..Some of the statements that are being made w regards to stock DPs and boost greater than 16 psi n meth are grossly inacurrate..the DPs will run so hard and hot and could break and the turbos will be absolutely stressed.. Like trying to blow a golf ball outta of straw..

IDK what all this VE this and PE that is all about..I am not an dynamic fluid physicist..so I am not going to pretend to even try to follow what was said, but i wager no else here is a dynamic fluid physicist either..

Bottom line there is a reason why the top tuners running aggressive tunes (above 16 psi) mandate that you use catless DP..if you wanna run stock DPs be my guest.. just make sure you post what happens a year or two from now.
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      05-31-2011, 05:20 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (-(ellblazer420 View Post
I believe you run meth with all 4 cats as well?
Yes... for now.

The stock cats might take a dump eventually. It is not good for the catalytic converters to run meth but you "can" do it.
IF they do fail I will have them replaced and likely get aftermarket DP after.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
I tried to explain all of this to these guys but gave up..this is what i said the turbos would see ridcuolus duty cycles b/c of how hard they woruld work and longevity of your engine/turbos will be an issue... now u have heard it from someone who is more expert..still think you will get longevity with.. meth 16 psi and stock DPs??
Correct.

The only way you will improve efficiency of the turbo's and have them work "less" for the power is reduce the pressure drop at the intercooler, reduce the back pressure from the restrictive exhaust and feed them cooler air.

As I mentioned the methanol cooling pre throttle body has no positive effect on the turbo's. Methanol pre throttle body doesnt touch the turbo's.

If anything with pre throttle body methanol injection you are "over-working" the turbo's with the increased boost that you are now able to run.

From a longevity stand-point on the turbo's themselves, stay stock.

Motor wise: Keep your AFR in check, keep your EGT low, avoid knock, avoid timing drop outs.

The more power, the more heat, the more wear. Hoping for more power and believing you are not causing more wear is selfish. It's not possible
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      05-31-2011, 05:23 PM   #32
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JB4 upgrade for sale

Hey guys, sorry for posting this here, but in a way, it's kind of like my departing post. Unfortunately, I sold my 335i, and I sold my JB3. I have the jb4 upgrade available. Never used. And didn't sell it with my JB3.

I am willing to accept $90 or best offer. Please let me know if you're interested. I am located in Canada. Thanks.

I just couldn't handle the amount of time I spent in the shop. I loved the car when it worked!
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      05-31-2011, 05:41 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
I tried to explain all of this to these guys but gave up..this is what i said the turbos would see ridcuolus duty cycles b/c of how hard they woruld work and longevity of your engine/turbos will be an issue... now u have heard it from someone who is more expert..still think you will get longevity with.. meth 16 psi and stock DPs??
You are not catching the point and I think Jeff confused you more. Jeff is stating that a more efficient system overall AT THE SAME POWER LEVEL will decrease turbo stress.

My point is that DPs at similar boost will actually increase stress due to the increased power, efficiency, flow, etc. Turbo stress is not a factor of hardware as much as the power, torque target you are trying to reach.
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      05-31-2011, 05:42 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray335i View Post
Hey guys, sorry for posting this here, but in a way, it's kind of like my departing post. Unfortunately, I sold my 335i, and I sold my JB3. I have the jb4 upgrade available. Never used. And didn't sell it with my JB3.

I am willing to accept $90 or best offer. Please let me know if you're interested. I am located in Canada. Thanks.

I just couldn't handle the amount of time I spent in the shop. I loved the car when it worked!
I think you should post in every single thread.
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      05-31-2011, 05:47 PM   #35
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So if I wasnt running meth and a tune, but had catless dps and abetter FMIC, the turbos would operate more efficiently and longevity will increase?
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      05-31-2011, 06:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
I think you may have a few misconceptions but I would be happy to clear some up for you.

First and foremost me as well as many others can and do run methanol with stock downpipes.

However here are a few things to note.

The only way to improve efficiency of your turbo's is via intercooler or downpipes.

Methanol will actually not improve efficiency of the turbo's themselves but have them work harder cause you are increasing boost.

Methanol wont improve your gas mileage, reduce oil temps, or make your turbo's run cooler. (unless you spray methanol onto the turbo's themselves but that will greatly reduce longevity of the turbo's even more so). Thats a little past the scope of this thread though.

****

The whole idea of methanol injection is simply this:

With a full bolt on pump gas car you would find about 15 PSI is a safe area of boost. Methanol injection regardless of modifications can run 17 even 18 PSI no problem.

Its not that it improves turbo efficiency, in fact none whatsoever.

All it simply does is cool down the intake charge right before the motor, and increase effective octane which in turn allows you to run more boost.

Hope this helps clear up some confusion.
Great info! So is meth just increasing your knock threshold allowing you to safely run more boost ? The notes for the JB4 highly recommends downpipes to run map 2 which is 14.5PSI. That's what led me to believe downpipes were necessary for running over 13 PSI safely with or without meth. My logic was that I needed more flow for the turbos to spool up and maintain pressure. Thanks for the clarification.
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      05-31-2011, 06:36 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335i 07 View Post
Great info! So is meth just increasing your knock threshold allowing you to safely run more boost ? The notes for the JB4 highly recommends downpipes to run map 2 which is 14.5PSI. That's what led me to believe downpipes were necessary for running over 13 PSI safely with or without meth. My logic was that I needed more flow for the turbos to spool up and maintain pressure. Thanks for the clarification.

Downpipes arent necessary, but they are recommended.

Just be aware over time you have the ability to destroy your catalytic converters.

You will have faster spool, and more power throughout the mid-range with downpipes.

I've been running a tune and methanol setup for 2 years but that is only about 12,000 miles for this car.

I would say around the 30,000 mile mark running methanol the catalytic converters would likely fail. I know a guy that ran into that problem around that mileage.

You start getting the rotten egg smell.
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      05-31-2011, 06:48 PM   #38
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Ok, I'm about to pull the trigger on a meth kit with safeties of course. Need one more thing clarified. I read on this forum--> "pumps start to go bad as early as 2 years, depending on the meth mix you are using. So, buying a new pump every couple of years would be a downside, but that is heavily outweighed by the benefits."
If this statement is true can someone please explain why meth would accelerate premature failure of the HPFP? Is it the Increased boost people add while running meth that is making the pumps fail faster by requiring more fuel or is it the meth itself?
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      05-31-2011, 07:02 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335i 07 View Post
Ok, I'm about to pull the trigger on a meth kit with safeties of course. Need one more thing clarified. I read on this forum--> "pumps start to go bad as early as 2 years, depending on the meth mix you are using. So, buying a new pump every couple of years would be a downside, but that is heavily outweighed by the benefits."
If this statement is true can someone please explain why meth would accelerate premature failure of the HPFP? Is it the Increased boost people add while running meth that is making the pumps fail faster by requiring more fuel or is it the meth itself?
i believe they are referring to the methanol pump not your HPFP
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      05-31-2011, 07:10 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
Downpipes arent necessary, but they are recommended.

Just be aware over time you have the ability to destroy your catalytic converters.

You will have faster spool, and more power throughout the mid-range with downpipes.

I've been running a tune and methanol setup for 2 years but that is only about 12,000 miles for this car.

I would say around the 30,000 mile mark running methanol the catalytic converters would likely fail. I know a guy that ran into that problem around that mileage.

You start getting the rotten egg smell.
I may have to get more robust cats welded in my stock pipes. Finding aftermarket cats that maintains the "stock sound" might be tough though. Ive been told that cats don't play a huge role in sound but after watching YouTube clips of catless downpipes with stock exhaust, I don't believe it. Ive also read that aftermarket downpipes will destroy your cats.
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      05-31-2011, 07:17 PM   #41
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You are not catching the point and I think Jeff confused you more. Jeff is stating that a more efficient system overall AT THE SAME POWER LEVEL will decrease turbo stress.

My point is that DPs at similar boost will actually increase stress due to the increased power, efficiency, flow, etc. Turbo stress is not a factor of hardware as much as the power, torque target you are trying to reach.

I am not confused at all..Jeff clearly stated I was correct and I knew i was correct b4 that..and you just proved my point a more efficient system overall at the same power level will decrease turbo stress hence increase longevity, turbos running 16psi will see harsh duty cycles w stock DPs, even more so w meth..so your point is moot..u have gone WAY off topic here im not sure why..

The OP clearly asked: post 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by 335i 07 View Post
I'm trying to figure out if its safe to run meth and 16psi at full flow with stock downpipes. Will the added cooler IATs and turbo efficiency make up for the increase turbo strain due to the downpipe restriction? I'm keeping my car for a long time so longevity is the most important thing for me. I do not want downpipes due to noise. Even race catted are to loud for my taste. I'm very interested in meth because it will keep my intake valve cleaning intervals down, improve fuel efficiency, lower oil temps slightly, decrease knock and make my turbos run cooler but can I increase boost?

Why are you hopelessly arguing something that has no basis in fact..
- Stock DPs plus boost > 16 psi + meth = higher duty cycles and wear
- Catless DPs plus boost > 16 psi + meth will allow for less duty cycles hence less wear..

This is the EXACT reason why almost EVERY tuner for this car mandates use of catless DPs at these boost levels..and even more so w meth.

If you want to run this setup fine..but dont advise the OP incorrectly that it safer to do so w Stock DPs then catless DPs.
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      05-31-2011, 07:20 PM   #42
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i believe they are referring to the methanol pump not your HPFP
Your right! That makes sense. Don't know why I assumed he was talking about the HPFP.
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      05-31-2011, 07:23 PM   #43
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I may have to get more robust cats welded in my stock pipes. Finding aftermarket cats that maintains the "stock sound" might be tough though. Ive been told that cats don't play a huge role in sound but after watching YouTube clips of catless downpipes with stock exhaust, I don't believe it. Ive also read that aftermarket downpipes will destroy your cats.
OP im sorry but you really need to do some more research b/c ur statements are iffy at best..u dont need cats in the DPs period..others have told you they are not that loud..u seem to be grasping on to a hopeless cause to sacrifice the longevity that u said was MOST important for sound..it just one contradiction after another..why dont you just go stock n or at least run a less agressive tune..13 psi if u wanna keep stock DPs

Last edited by tibra1; 05-31-2011 at 07:38 PM.
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      05-31-2011, 07:33 PM   #44
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So if I wasnt running meth and a tune, but had catless dps and abetter FMIC, the turbos would operate more efficiently and longevity will increase?
Without a tune and with catless DPs and better FMIC your duty cycles on the turbos would drop to nothing and operate more freely and easily..not sure if thats what u meant by efficiently? but longevity a big yes
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