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      06-09-2011, 06:20 PM   #1
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Hybrid Audio Door & Center Speaker Install

I have the Logic7 system and have been extremely happy with the sound of the OEM speakers, driven by the MS-8's internal amp. I recently stumbled upon an opportunity to purchase three new Hybrid Audio Legatia L3SE speakers and decided to buy them to see if I could make them work in my car. What attracted me to those speakers was the fact that they were designed to be "full-range", being able to play up to over 16,000Hz (the limit of my hearing), and not necessarily requiring the assistance of tweeters in order to provide the full frequency band that would normally be handled by a 4" midrange, a tweeter and some sort of crossover network. I also liked the fact that despite their size (3.7") they reportedly play down to 160Hz which would be the perfect crossover frequency to my underseat woofers. Hybrid Audio has an excellent reputation, and their "middle of the road" speakers have a history of winning sound competitions year after year. Well the L3SEs are of even higher quality, so I thought I'd give it a shot in my car and see what the MS-8 could do with some of the best speakers money can buy.

The installation position of of the existing 4" mids in the doors is a bit of a potential issue since the higher frequencies shoot off the speaker in a narrow cone, as opposed to a wide cone for the lower frequencies, so if the speaker is aimed away from the listener, then the high frequency response will drop off if your head is not inside that cone. Luckily, the MS-8 autotune will be able to compensate for the "off-axis" position of the left side door mid, the question is will it be enough!

Install was straight-forward, as I had done this plenty of times before. Props to Technic for providing me with the appropriate speaker connectors which made connections with the OEM wiring a walk in the park.

Pics are below. Quality is at the mercy of the iPhone cam, I apologize.

As far as sound goes, I will be adding my comments later. These speakers need a chance to break in, and I need to figure out how to get the MS-8 to play nice with the new kids on the block!
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      06-10-2011, 07:43 AM   #2
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I know you want to let them break in, but what is your initial reaction?
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      06-10-2011, 08:54 AM   #3
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Hybrid Audio appears on E90post! I love his products, can't wait to hear what you think - one way or the other!
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      06-10-2011, 12:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emoon3 View Post
I know you want to let them break in, but what is your initial reaction?
Well I just came back from my car as "excited" as Representative Weiner after a Twitter session!

Originally, I had them run by the MS-8. I just wanted to see if it would work, but I didn't have high hopes. It actually sounded very nice, but there was a problem. The left mid sounded like it was out of phase a little bit, or the TA was off (I knew the wiring was good). Also, I got some buzzing during certain frequencies, for example the whistling at the beginning of "isn't she lovely". I suspected that the MS-8 was not able to boost the treble enough on that speaker (due to the off-axis installation), and that I was getting distortion. So I thought the MS-8 could use the assistance of some more power.

This morning, I installed the Kenwood XR-4S amp I had lying around. Problem solved! After some minor adjustments, the soundstage is head-high, stretching from left a-pillar to passenger mirror, vocal imaging is spot-on, the detail is the best I have heard, and the frequency extension is everything I could ask for. I crossed them over at 170Hz with a 24dB/oct slope. I could probably go lower. I have a lot more testing to do, but right now, it's a big thumbs up with a "schwing" on the side.
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      06-10-2011, 02:47 PM   #5
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the kenwood XR-4S amp is a damn good amp
i never liked the built in amps on the MS-8
too weak and they run out of power too quickly
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      06-10-2011, 04:18 PM   #6
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Very nice!

So you don't miss having tweeters at all then.

And 170Hz from a 3.5" driver is not bad at all.
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      06-11-2011, 10:22 AM   #7
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When I tested the 3" Scans, they played low enough at first - but after a week or two, the suspension seemed to loosen up and the low freqs were not solid above a certain volume level (not that loud). So I would monitor that, certainly, just as an aside. I had hopes for doing what you're trying out when the L3SE was announced... But after installing them into a Range Rover in a full HAT system, I wasn't as confident they would play as low and as loudly as we need.

I would not have expected the MS8 amp to hang with that driver. 3dB of eq =2x the watts, so that eq would have tapped out that amp ic pretty fast. Might have been ok with a Clarus tweeter and a cap, ironically, since the eq boost would have been much less.
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      06-12-2011, 02:53 AM   #8
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very nice job, big fan of Hybrid
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      06-12-2011, 07:40 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Might have been ok with a Clarus tweeter and a cap, ironically, since the eq boost would have been much less.
I had a backup plan for that scenario as I still have two pairs of Dyn tweeters in my attic. I could actually use the Kenwood amp as an active crossover and I may still end up installing them in the future if I ever feel the need to do so.
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      06-12-2011, 01:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I had a backup plan for that scenario as I still have two pairs of Dyn tweeters in my attic. I could actually use the Kenwood amp as an active crossover and I may still end up installing them in the future if I ever feel the need to do so.
If I could squeeze a set of L4SEs into the doors I'd be all over that. I'm still debating doing the standard L4 but the Hybrid tweeter housings are so big I'm not sure if they would fit easily in the sails.
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      06-16-2011, 06:18 PM   #11
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Did some EQ'ing today. I think I did pretty good. The drop-off after 18,000Hz was to be expected, but since my hearing stops at 16,000Hz, I'm good!
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      06-16-2011, 06:25 PM   #12
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Also, since the center speaker mounting baffle looks like swiss cheese, I decided to install a layer Dynamat to seal it off better. Had to dremel off all the mounting tabs from the bottom of the cover. The cover is now being held down by Dynamat "sticky stuff". Had to spray paint the top black, otherwise the silver would have shown through the vents and speaker grille.
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      06-16-2011, 07:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Did some EQ'ing today. I think I did pretty good. The drop-off after 18,000Hz was to be expected, but since my hearing stops at 16,000Hz, I'm good!
If you don't mind my asking
How old are you?
I thought hearing loss doesn't start until late 50s
Where's your top 4khz!
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      06-16-2011, 08:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
If you don't mind my asking
How old are you?
I thought hearing loss doesn't start until late 50s
Where's your top 4khz!
I'm 41. I think my hearing loss is average. What's the "top 4khz"?
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      06-17-2011, 06:09 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Well I just came back from my car as "excited" as Representative Weiner after a Twitter session!

Originally, I had them run by the MS-8. I just wanted to see if it would work, but I didn't have high hopes. It actually sounded very nice, but there was a problem. The left mid sounded like it was out of phase a little bit, or the TA was off (I knew the wiring was good). Also, I got some buzzing during certain frequencies, for example the whistling at the beginning of "isn't she lovely". I suspected that the MS-8 was not able to boost the treble enough on that speaker (due to the off-axis installation), and that I was getting distortion. So I thought the MS-8 could use the assistance of some more power.

This morning, I installed the Kenwood XR-4S amp I had lying around. Problem solved! After some minor adjustments, the soundstage is head-high, stretching from left a-pillar to passenger mirror, vocal imaging is spot-on, the detail is the best I have heard, and the frequency extension is everything I could ask for. I crossed them over at 170Hz with a 24dB/oct slope. I could probably go lower. I have a lot more testing to do, but right now, it's a big thumbs up with a "schwing" on the side.
Are you running any power to the rears? Does that Kenwood fit in the factory amp location?
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      06-17-2011, 07:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgatti View Post
Are you running any power to the rears? Does that Kenwood fit in the factory amp location?
The rears and sides are running off the MS-8's internal amp, channels 6 & 7, connected in parallel. The Kenwood amp is very small and it will easily fit in the OEM amp location. I installed it under the trunk floor.
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      06-17-2011, 10:57 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I'm 41. I think my hearing loss is average. What's the "top 4khz"?
i meant the difference between 16khz and 20khz
most pople can hear from 20-20,000hz
i'm 38 but i can hear 20khz
and i used to DJ when i was younger and i had frequent ringing in my ear after parties

there is an app for the iphone that i play with sometimes
its useful to find out if something resonates, when you are playing with crossover points
it's called FreqGen
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/freqgen/id325832805?mt=8
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      10-13-2011, 09:15 PM   #18
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Well, earlier today I had the pleasure of meeting the founder of Hybrid Audio, Scott Buwalda. Scott took a listen in my car and he was immediately impressed by the soundstage. He then did some "magic" with the MS-8's 31-band eq and wow, the car now sounds even better! I will probably never touch that eq again, lol. He said my car sounded a bit more on the mellow side, which is how I like it anyways. I do a lot of driving so an overly bright and "in your face" system would be too fatiguing for longer listening sessions.

Then I had the absolute pleasure of sitting in Scott's G35 and listening to his system, which he recently updated with L3SEs in the sail panels and L8SE's in the kick panels. He also installed a bandpass sub enclosure in the trunk, with 4 6.5" Imagine subwoofer drivers. All I can say is holy f\/cking shit, that was an auditory orgasm! I was blown away by the soundstage and the imaging, but the midbass impact from the L8SEs was out of this world. No matter how loud he turned it, they just kept on sounding better. No distortion whatsoever, at levels where my ears were starting to seriously hurt and my chest was getting pounded with an energy and impact I had not thought possible coming from a couple of 8" drivers. The sub-bass was also superb, blended in perfectly with the rest of the system, and appering right on top of the dashboard. I am actually running out of adjectives to describe how good that car sounds. I think Scott told me that he has been to only one sound competition with this current set-up, and he won it! On other forums, even some of the seasoned competitors have said that his car is the best they have ever heard, bar none.

Scott was very helpful and answered all my questions. He even offered to professionally RTA my car for free in their shop, which would require me switching to a different processor that can eq L and R separately. I am tempted....

What a classy outfit and what a classy guy Scott is. They have me as a customer for life. Now I just need to figure out how to fit those L8SEs under my seats....

It was a bit sobering sitting down in my car again after that experience but I have to say that I am overall very happy with how everything turned out.
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      10-14-2011, 01:15 AM   #19
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I assume he told you about the new L4SE Carbon slim 4" mid that is shipping? The one that is going in my car PDQ?
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      10-14-2011, 07:46 AM   #20
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I assume he told you about the new L4SE Carbon slim 4" mid that is shipping? The one that is going in my car PDQ?
Shut up...!
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      10-14-2011, 03:56 PM   #21
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It's not a wideband, it wants a tweeter, and it's best active bandpassed, but the L2X and the Legatia tweeter ought to work well in our cars.

I will start a thread after I test it. Looks to be E92-capable!
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      10-14-2011, 06:06 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
It's not a wideband, it wants a tweeter, and it's best active bandpassed, but the L2X and the Legatia tweeter ought to work well in our cars.

I will start a thread after I test it. Looks to be E92-capable!
Scott said I didn't need any tweeters but I am tempted anyways. Does the L2X work with the L3SE?

I take it the shallow L4SE will play lower, how low? It must be at least 100Hz for you to be excited about it, right?

I must say I am very happy with the L3SE at 150Hz. I've been giving them close to 150W a piece, and they have not complained yet! I do realize though that I am pushing their limit. Scott now has them crossed at 250Hz (originally 160), but his midbasses are in the kicks, and not under the seats, so imaging is not a problem.
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