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      05-30-2016, 08:20 AM   #1
vasillalov
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Pure vs RB vs Stock Turbos

Hi folks,

I'd like to have a slightly different comparison discussion between the different turbo offerings out there.

I am currently needing to replace my stock turbos because they are done. My goals and expectations are slightly different when it comes to the replacements.

1) Reliability! If I am replacing turbos, I don't want anything that will start smoking or whining within 10,000 miles. That's just unacceptable.
2) Same or close to stock spool characteristics. I take my car to AutoX and Track days very frequently and I don't want anything laggier than stock. The extra power gains on the straights are often diminished by the time wasted waiting for boost to build.
3) Cost.

Now, I've been considering Stage 2 turbos, but looking at the pricing (especially Pure), it seems very high. I can replace the stock turbos TWICE before I come close to the price point of the Pure turbos.

Some questions I was hoping people can chime in on:

* Which turbos are most reliable: Stock, RB or Pure?
* Can Stage 2 turbos be ran successfully with Cobb OTS maps, or do I need to have at least an e-tune?
* How far off are the RBs and the Pure turbos when it comes to spool characteristics?

Thanks in advance.
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      05-30-2016, 08:29 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Hi folks,

I'd like to have a slightly different comparison discussion between the different turbo offerings out there.

I am currently needing to replace my stock turbos because they are done. My goals and expectations are slightly different when it comes to the replacements.

1) Reliability! If I am replacing turbos, I don't want anything that will start smoking or whining within 10,000 miles. That's just unacceptable.
2) Same or close to stock spool characteristics. I take my car to AutoX and Track days very frequently and I don't want anything laggier than stock. The extra power gains on the straights are often diminished by the time wasted waiting for boost to build.
3) Cost.

Now, I've been considering Stage 2 turbos, but looking at the pricing (especially Pure), it seems very high. I can replace the stock turbos TWICE before I come close to the price point of the Pure turbos.

Some questions I was hoping people can chime in on:

* Which turbos are most reliable: Stock, RB or Pure?
* Can Stage 2 turbos be ran successfully with Cobb OTS maps, or do I need to have at least an e-tune?
* How far off are the RBs and the Pure turbos when it comes to spool characteristics?

Thanks in advance.
If spool is a concern and if you don't want to do a lot to the fuel system you may look into stage 1. Hexon has a set for around 1,500 and I'm sure others do too. Slightly more top end and still pretty decent spool.
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      05-30-2016, 08:37 AM   #3
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Thank you for responding.

RB no longer seems to offer Stage 1.
Pure never offered Stage 1.
VTT is completely out the question.

This leaves with me with Hexons. Their Stage 1 is a bit more expensive than Stock. My concerns with Hexon is about the quality. Hexon is based off Taiwan which is dangerously close to China. I really don't want to buy turbos with crap components inside. I am not saying that Hexons are bad, but chances are, they use inferior components.
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      05-30-2016, 08:44 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Thank you for responding.

RB no longer seems to offer Stage 1.
Pure never offered Stage 1.
VTT is completely out the question.

This leaves with me with Hexons. Their Stage 1 is a bit more expensive than Stock. My concerns with Hexon is about the quality. Hexon is based off Taiwan which is dangerously close to China. I really don't want to buy turbos with crap components inside. I am not saying that Hexons are bad, but chances are, they use inferior components.
I think thats a shallow way of thought lol. I guess the US is close to china as well when you spin the globe in the opposite direction lol. A lot of these components are outsourced. I think you should check the reputation of the company instead of where its at lol. You would be surprised most of your clothing isnt from the country you reside as well
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      05-30-2016, 08:47 AM   #5
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I have run all three, stock, RBs and Pures

First of all it depends on your goals
If you want trouble free motoring with the occasional waste gate rattle stay stock
If you want more power then you need after market turbos
RBs were the only aftermarket turbos available for a long time
Today there is much more choice
As far as a comparison, I find the Pures spool up slower then the RBs, but pull all the way to red line
So far im very happy with the PS2s
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      05-30-2016, 08:49 AM   #6
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I know that Hexon hasn't been around as long as some others, but they have a good amount of turbos out there and I haven't heard of any failures yet. It is Taiwan but the factory turbos were made in Japan by Mitsubishi and last 100,000+ miles in many (or most) cases. Everyone has the potential to make shitty products but I would trust Hexon before others.
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      05-30-2016, 09:14 AM   #7
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Stage 1 have clipped turbine wheels, which is no-no for spool. You can compare stage 1 dynos to stock turbo dynos and you'll see the difference. There is more area under the curve with stock snails. It is too hard to beat stock turbos for longevity and spool. I cannot see any aftermarket turbo offering beating stock turbos at AutoX by a statistically significant margin, if at all. Driving standing miles only, would be another story. Stick with stock.
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      05-30-2016, 09:28 AM   #8
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Personally I like the VTT option. His turbos are fast spooling and my friend has a stage 2 going on 30k and loves them. My 2+ setup is a work of art. And with the new customer service guy Chris, Tony has addressed his one glaring issue. Option 4 is Hexon. As far as going hexon or pure, no opinions. They're to new to n54 for me to comment. As far as RB vs VTT, I went VTT because the actual turbo setup is superior and I could care less about customer service.

Here's a thread by wedge, very well respected tuner here, on the VTT stage 1. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1267728
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      05-30-2016, 09:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
Stage 1 have clipped turbine wheels, which is no-no for spool. You can compare stage 1 dynos to stock turbo dynos and you'll see the difference. There is more area under the curve with stock snails. It is too hard to beat stock turbos for longevity and spool. I cannot see any aftermarket turbo offering beating stock turbos at AutoX by a statistically significant margin, if at all. Driving standing miles only, would be another story. Stick with stock.
Not true, the Hexon Stage 1s are not clipped
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      05-30-2016, 09:54 AM   #10
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Regular rb next gens would prob be your best choice. they will spool faster than pures, but they don't have as large of a compressor wheel, so you probably wont make as much power up top. There have been several people who have pushed them over 600whp though. The "next gens" are different from older rb turbos because they now use billet compressor wheels and 11 blade turbines (vs the older cast comp wheels and 12 blade turbines).
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      05-30-2016, 10:00 AM   #11
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Interesting comments!

How about the tuning component? Will I be able to run S2 turbos with Cobb OTS maps? Are the spool and flow characteristics of the Stage 2 turbos so different than stock that they would require an custom map?
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      05-30-2016, 10:02 AM   #12
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Mine are clipped Garrett turbos because I wanted more top end power. I figured low end traction would be an issue and more top end would be desirable. For stage 1 I would do the opposite, especially for a track car, so there's little lag and you get max power from them in lower rpms.
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      05-30-2016, 10:03 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Interesting comments!

How about the tuning component? Will I be able to run S2 turbos with Cobb OTS maps? Are the spool and flow characteristics of the Stage 2 turbos so different than stock that they would require an custom map?
I think regardless of which route you take, getting a custom tune or one optimized for your new turbos/boost/fuel would be required.
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      05-30-2016, 10:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Interesting comments!

How about the tuning component? Will I be able to run S2 turbos with Cobb OTS maps? Are the spool and flow characteristics of the Stage 2 turbos so different than stock that they would require an custom map?
You don't need custom maps but they will benefit any aftermarket setup. Cobb I'd good to 20 psi boost I believe. After that you need something else for higher boost. Mhd, Jb4, backend fkash, etc. I'm running JB4, MHD, and a flash all stacked. Each plays a role to max out my power.
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      05-30-2016, 10:28 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
I'm running JB4, MHD, and a flash all stacked. Each plays a role to max out my power.
+1

From what I've seen, all the faster cars without issues seem to be running the jb4/mhd combo.
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      05-30-2016, 10:29 AM   #16
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I ran the original RB turbos for over 30k miles before upgrading to the Stealths. IMO the regular RB turbos are the most proven reliable turbos and the best bang for the buck as in just a stg2 fuel pump and inlets with E85 can net you a daily 550-580 rwhp safe ride. If you go with a modest BEF and do like 24 psi taper to like 19 or 20 that is going to be a nice 550 rwhp ride. I ran probably 20+ 11.0 runs at 26 psi and my 10.9 run was at 27 psi the on the RB 15T' turbos and all this in a full weight E90.

The RB 15T turbos took everything I threw at them plus.

You can search all my vids and see my runs dynos and so forth.

I am one that pushes the absolute limits. If you are interested I have a Brand new never installed set shipped straight from RB this is not a refurbished set. Asking 3000.00 shipped. this kit is a regular 3700.00 I ran 10.9s with this setup and constant 11.0 runs and best thing about this setup PI and Stg3 fueling is not required so this setup is the best bang for the buck.

Billet 15T Compressor Wheel & RB Bullet Nut
TD04 Thrust Upgrade
High Flow TD04L 11-Blade High Aero Turbine Wheel
RB High Heat Shield
RB High Flow Oil Drains
In-House VSR Balanced To .1G Levels (.2G Max)


This will also include the RB N54 Turbo Basic Install kit

If you are interested I am also selling my TFT inlets only I am keeping the Charge pipe portion you get the inlet to turbos only portion. I will include them as a complete set for 3400.00

Vas if your interested and or want any info PM me I will send my number or vice versa and answer any questions you have.
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      05-30-2016, 10:35 AM   #17
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Will you be using inlets?

If yes- if it were me- I'd run the RB next gen (15t option) and NOT push them to the max, and have them tuned with a nice flat linear torque curve.
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      05-30-2016, 10:46 AM   #18
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Stage 2 turbos open up the door for all kinds of lovely stuff that ends up costing a LOT more: tune, inlets, upgraded LPFP to handle E85. So technically, to build a reliable setup with Stage 2 turbos, you'd need twice the money for the turbo kit itself. That's not even getting into port injection either. ...and lets not forget that there is no real solution for the wastegate rattle. Inevitably all of these upgraded twins will develop rattling.

I think for what I want to accomplish with the car, I'll be sticking to OEM turbos and perhaps Hexon Stage 1. I need to dig a bit more on Hexons to see if it would be worth the risk.
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      05-30-2016, 11:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov
Stage 2 turbos open up the door for all kinds of lovely stuff that ends up costing a LOT more: tune, inlets, upgraded LPFP to handle E85. So technically, to build a reliable setup with Stage 2 turbos, you'd need twice the money for the turbo kit itself. That's not even getting into port injection either. ...and lets not forget that there is no real solution for the wastegate rattle. Inevitably all of these upgraded twins will develop rattling.

I think for what I want to accomplish with the car, I'll be sticking to OEM turbos and perhaps Hexon Stage 1. I need to dig a bit more on Hexons to see if it would be worth the risk.
You don't need inlets for an upgraded turbo like an Rb next gen or hexon r600...

Up until about the last year and a half people only ran those types of turbos on oem inlets and achieved 450-520 whp.

The fueling aspect- as stated above, $400 bucks for a stage 2 LPF would be all you would "need." Just for reference I ran the fuel-it stage 1 for about 2 years at e60 w. Zero issues with upgraded turbos.

PI, inlets, outlets, etc are all "extras" not "needs" IMO based on your goals.

In regards to OTS- IMO a custom tune should be used regardless of stock turbos or aftermarket, having somthing dialed in for your specific car > OTS, not somthing i would be willing to skimp on in efforts to save $200
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      05-30-2016, 03:14 PM   #20
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If you are planning on running OTS Cobb maps you're just wasting your time and money upgrading turbos. Spool isn't anything to worry about with hybrids imo. You can adjust those characteristics well enough simply with tuning if you're using JB4/MHD. Just know that if you plan to push the turbos near 550 you should factor in the cost of a LPFP and clutch/flywheel, inlets and n20 tmap, plus a tablet set up etc.
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      05-30-2016, 04:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Stage 2 turbos open up the door for all kinds of lovely stuff that ends up costing a LOT more: tune, inlets, upgraded LPFP to handle E85. So technically, to build a reliable setup with Stage 2 turbos, you'd need twice the money for the turbo kit itself. That's not even getting into port injection either. ...and lets not forget that there is no real solution for the wastegate rattle. Inevitably all of these upgraded twins will develop rattling.

I think for what I want to accomplish with the car, I'll be sticking to OEM turbos and perhaps Hexon Stage 1. I need to dig a bit more on Hexons to see if it would be worth the risk.
For your intended use and power goals, concerns about longevity and spool demands, a Stage 1 type offering is going to be hard to beat. I would absolutely recommend doing inlets at the same time -more power potential and it's easier on the turbos.

Thanks,
Chris
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      05-30-2016, 04:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
For your intended use and power goals, concerns about longevity and spool demands, a Stage 1 type offering is going to be hard to beat. I would absolutely recommend doing inlets at the same time -more power potential and it's easier on the turbos.

Thanks,
Chris
+1. Not necessary but helps with strain on the turbos and then you are there already so saves on labor.
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