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      07-25-2011, 02:47 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
Oooo. Using big words to seem like a smart boy aren't you? You don't know half of what you're talking about. Yes, obviously there's more money floating around than 100 years but that doesn't mean we should keep printing more as we have gotten to the point where our dollar is nothing and inflation is at record highs. Mr. Encyclopedia, why don't you brush up on your history and see that we're doing what Germany did back in the late 1940's to pay off its debts after it lost the war.
There's not much risk of that. Quantitative easing is not a DIRECT way of printing money. Instead, what the Fed is doing is injecting funds into the banking systems (both directly and indirectly) by keeping the (discount) interest rate at effectively 0% and buying up government securities and bonds. This increases the size of the monetary BASE; the money supply, on the other hand, is dependent on how much of this money gets loaned back out into society (what is known as the multiplier effect).

Let's not forget, money supply does NOT equal inflation level. Inflation is determined based on the average price of goods, adjusted for various factors (it usually does not include volatile goods, like oil). While there is a strong correlation between money supply and inflation, this recession is case in point that it is not 100%. The monetary base has been vastly expanded by the Federal Reserve in the past two years, and yet, inflation has been very low. This is a reflection of what I discussed in the paragraph above - banks are simply not issuing out loans as readily as in the past, and combined with more conservative consumer spending and business investment, there has been very little pressure on prices.

What am I trying to say? Inflation shouldn't be a fear of yours. Inflationary pressure is still moderate to low, and the Federal Reserve has more than enough means to control it, should it occur. Series11 is also correct in stating that the monetary base (and money supply) must expand in order to accommodate population growth. Also, if you know about the Philips Curve, you will realize that a bit of inflation is desirable.
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      07-25-2011, 07:32 PM   #244
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There's not much risk of that. Quantitative easing is not a DIRECT way of printing money. Instead, what the Fed is doing is injecting funds into the banking systems (both directly and indirectly) by keeping the (discount) interest rate at effectively 0% and buying up government securities and bonds. This increases the size of the monetary BASE; the money supply, on the other hand, is dependent on how much of this money gets loaned back out into society (what is known as the multiplier effect).

Let's not forget, money supply does NOT equal inflation level. Inflation is determined based on the average price of goods, adjusted for various factors (it usually does not include volatile goods, like oil). While there is a strong correlation between money supply and inflation, this recession is case in point that it is not 100%. The monetary base has been vastly expanded by the Federal Reserve in the past two years, and yet, inflation has been very low. This is a reflection of what I discussed in the paragraph above - banks are simply not issuing out loans as readily as in the past, and combined with more conservative consumer spending and business investment, there has been very little pressure on prices.

What am I trying to say? Inflation shouldn't be a fear of yours. Inflationary pressure is still moderate to low, and the Federal Reserve has more than enough means to control it, should it occur. Series11 is also correct in stating that the monetary base (and money supply) must expand in order to accommodate population growth. Also, if you know about the Philips Curve, you will realize that a bit of inflation is desirable.
+1 on this. Isn't is great how some folks conveniently ignore the huge M3 run up the aughts while harping on inflation now that M3 is up around 3% after a period of contraction?
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      07-25-2011, 09:28 PM   #245
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OMFG you are hilarious......please stop ok...its getting pretty embarrassing...usually, I try to be reasonably courteous even if I disagree with some on here but given your history of rudeness and condescending nature on here, no need.....

Please please with sugar on top learn about money and currencies and even inflation before making another comment on this thread...how many times do I need to tell you the same damn thing???.

I know you dont know what Bretton Woods(go ahead and wiki it ok) is cause if you did, you wouldnt be spouting off this non-sense!.

Sooo, there has always been money expansion for 100's and 1000's of yrs in Asia, US and Europe huh?...really...first of all, the US was on a gold standard until Bretton Woods was repealed in early 1970's by Nixon, hence until then, you could NOT print money endlessly cause money was backed by physical gold...so in Asia 1000's of yrs ago, they too had the ability to inflate away by rubbing the genie bottle and making tons of gold and silver magically appear?....

Money expansion by printing is a recent institution...many yrs ago, money wasnt "debt" it was actually something of value...you had to dig it up out of the ground hence you couldnt keep expanding it endlessly....your example of how the economy has worked for 100-1000 yrs actually describes the "old financial system" which was not fiat based.

And you keep spouting that money always has to expand in our economy...have I not been saying this in like 4 threads now?...well duh!!!... we are a fiat economy, by definition we must do this......but unlike you who cant seem to get the "big picture" , I at least realize this economy is a ponzi scheme that we must all navigate through.

Guess how many fiat economies have stood the test of time...you go it, zero...all fiat economies have all failed...avg time to failure is roughly 50 yrs....just like most prosperous societies tend to decay after 200-300 yr runs.

We may have different political ideologies but unlike you, I wont call Obama and Bill Maher retards like you call Ron Paul...cause even if I disagree with Obama and Maher on many things, I know they are bright people and have reasons for doing what they do...if I saw Obama and Maher in person, I would say to their face what I say about them on here...no more no less...but I guarantee you wouldnt have the cajones to say to Ron Pauls face what you say about him on here...cause you are a internet hero who would be shamed in real life if you tried the passive aggressive BS to any man of honor/wisdom to their face....

Lastly, regarding inflation, you do know that the govt takes out food and energy(gas) out of the inflation numbers do ya?....????....wonder why...if inflation(govt number) actually went up, then they must pay more for interest on debt as bond players would demand more yield...if you truly think there is no inflation why is gas at 4.00 a gallon?...why has gold, silver, cotton, copper, cotton, etc all doubled to tripled over the past 5 yrs???...now that is real...only thing getting cheaper is your house and electronics from China...ya see, the equity mkts havent gone anywhere in 10 yrs...home prices down...stuff you dont need like electronics down which is a good thing, but everything you need to live on like food, gas, clothing all up...real wages hasnt gone up in over 10 yrs...wonder why the unemployment rate doesnt seem so bad near 9%???, yet you personally know so many unemployed or underemployed people?...cause the real UE rate the way we used to measure it is actually 22%!!!!

You can call these numbers libertarian hocus pocus but in some circles, they are just called facts....




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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Yes, I am claiming that the fact that there is more money in circulation than 100 years ago, and 50 years ago, and 20 years ago is proof that a correctly functioning monitary system REQUIRES regular increases in the number of dollars in circulation. This is how it has always worked, and how it will always HAVE to work into the future. It is a basic law of macro-economics that is set in stone, no matter what the Ron PaulTard himself tells you. It is true for US dollars, for European currency, for Asian currencies, and all functional currencies. It is true over the last 100 years, 500 years, and 1000 years.

You don't have to go that far back in history to the 1940's. Ronald Reagan ran our debt up to the equivalent of 17-18 TRILLION in debt, adjusted for inflation in current dollars. Much of the COST of that debt under Ronald Reagan has been inflated away instead of being paid off. Are you trying to compare Ronald Reagan to Hitler?

Our current inflation rate is nowhere near record highs, either inside this country or outside this country. You don't have to go back any further than the 1980's under Reagan to see how wrong you are about inflation being at record highs right now. What we do have is a bubble in the commodity market, but that is so fundamentally different than "inflation at record highs" that it isn't even funny.

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      07-25-2011, 09:54 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by pt View Post
+1 on this. Isn't is great how some folks conveniently ignore the huge M3 run up the aughts while harping on inflation now that M3 is up around 3% after a period of contraction?
Seriously man, do you even know M3 is?...do you know why it is imp?...and how would you even know M3 since the govt stopped printing this number 6 yrs ago?...wonder why they stopped doing this haha????

The reason why M3 was important in the past was because when the Fed Reserve put money into the banking system in the past, they ACTUALLY made loans with this...this caused the money velocity/multiplier effect to rise as this money actually got out into society and amplified.

Well, the Federal Reserve just expanded their balance sheet by 5T over the past 3 yrs...guess where this money went to?..not you and me!!!!!...loan standards are tighter than ever...the banks are using this money for their black box trading and buying up futures in SPX, gold, cotton, copper, etc...that is why these commodity prices keep going up along with smart people knowing these prices must go up as long as the govt and the Feds keep printing...hence we pay more at the pump and pay more for cotton jeans and etc...they also buy short term bonds receiving interest while getting the money from the Feds at "real" negative interest rates, hence its a no lose situation for them.

I used to hang out at financial websites before the BMW MB's....
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      07-25-2011, 10:55 PM   #247
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You can beg me to stop embarrassing you all you want, it isn't going to happen. I'm not going away. Your embarrasment will continue no matter how childish you act, or how many smiley faces you use.

You can worship Ayn Rand fetishist Ron Paul and worship shinny rocks as much as you want, it won't change reality. The minute the gov't decides by fiat what the dollar bill to gold exchange rate will be, it IS fiat money. The minute the gov't decides by fiat what the dollar bill to silver exchange rate will be, it IS fiat money. We've always had fiat money, and there has always been fiat money going all the way back to the Romans.

When the Romans experienced inflation, and by fiat changed the purity of their coins, they had fiat money.

When the Romans decided by fiat that people were forced to sell certain goods for a fixed number of coins, they had fiat money.

In the US, dating all the way back to the Civil War, the US issued bonds that were not backed by gold and silver. Fiat money. It's always been with us.

Your rock worship won't solve inflation. Your rock worship won't eliminate gov't fiat control over our monetary system. Your beliefs are childish at best, and outright delusionary and dangerous at worst.

So there goes all your arguements about that down the toilet. Now let's deal with REALITY RIGHT NOW. Go study exponential population growth and let me know when you understand that it took millions of years until about 1920 for the first billion people to be born. Then in a little over 20 years, the next billion people were born. In less than 20 years, the next billion, now in just the last dozen years, the population has added another billion. Just since we went off the gold standard, we've roughly DOUBLED world population. Notice how this is COMPLETELY different than historic old days you pine for? All the out of date money policies that didn't even work the way you think they did in the old days are now completely irrelevant in the backdrop of modern exponential population growth.

Come back when you grow up from reguritating decades old 1980's campaign slogans that Ron Paul used in the run-up to his 1988 failed run for the Presidency.

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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
OMFG you are hilarious......please stop ok...its getting pretty embarrassing...usually, I try to be reasonably courteous even if I disagree with some on here but given your history of rudeness and condescending nature on here, no need.....

Please please with sugar on top learn about money and currencies and even inflation before making another comment on this thread...how many times do I need to tell you the same damn thing???.

I know you dont know what Bretton Woods(go ahead and wiki it ok) is cause if you did, you wouldnt be spouting off this non-sense!.

Sooo, there has always been money expansion for 100's and 1000's of yrs in Asia, US and Europe huh?...really...first of all, the US was on a gold standard until Bretton Woods was repealed in early 1970's by Nixon, hence until then, you could NOT print money endlessly cause money was backed by physical gold...so in Asia 1000's of yrs ago, they too had the ability to inflate away by rubbing the genie bottle and making tons of gold and silver magically appear?....

Money expansion by printing is a recent institution...many yrs ago, money wasnt "debt" it was actually something of value...you had to dig it up out of the ground hence you couldnt keep expanding it endlessly....your example of how the economy has worked for 100-1000 yrs actually describes the "old financial system" which was not fiat based.

And you keep spouting that money always has to expand in our economy...have I not been saying this in like 4 threads now?...well duh!!!... we are a fiat economy, by definition we must do this......but unlike you who cant seem to get the "big picture" , I at least realize this economy is a ponzi scheme that we must all navigate through.

Guess how many fiat economies have stood the test of time...you go it, zero...all fiat economies have all failed...avg time to failure is roughly 50 yrs....just like most prosperous societies tend to decay after 200-300 yr runs.

We may have different political ideologies but unlike you, I wont call Obama and Bill Maher retards like you call Ron Paul...cause even if I disagree with Obama and Maher on many things, I know they are bright people and have reasons for doing what they do...if I saw Obama and Maher in person, I would say to their face what I say about them on here...no more no less...but I guarantee you wouldnt have the cajones to say to Ron Pauls face what you say about him on here...cause you are a internet hero who would be shamed in real life if you tried the passive aggressive BS to any man of honor/wisdom to their face....

Lastly, regarding inflation, you do know that the govt takes out food and energy(gas) out of the inflation numbers do ya?....????....wonder why...if inflation(govt number) actually went up, then they must pay more for interest on debt as bond players would demand more yield...if you truly think there is no inflation why is gas at 4.00 a gallon?...why has gold, silver, cotton, copper, cotton, etc all doubled to tripled over the past 5 yrs???...now that is real...only thing getting cheaper is your house and electronics from China...ya see, the equity mkts havent gone anywhere in 10 yrs...home prices down...stuff you dont need like electronics down which is a good thing, but everything you need to live on like food, gas, clothing all up...real wages hasnt gone up in over 10 yrs...wonder why the unemployment rate doesnt seem so bad near 9%???, yet you personally know so many unemployed or underemployed people?...cause the real UE rate the way we used to measure it is actually 22%!!!!

You can call these numbers libertarian hocus pocus but in some circles, they are just called facts....

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      07-25-2011, 11:01 PM   #248
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I used to hang out at financial websites before the BMW MB's....
Did you also spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express?

You trolled some financial websites, so now you think you know something? Get some real world experience and come back.
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      07-25-2011, 11:38 PM   #249
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Once again you fail!...

Its ok, I think we all know where we both stand now...

Do you ever wonder how and why Ayn Rand knew so much?...hmm...wonder why Alan Greenspan used to visit her in her apt?...they must walk in similar circles no?...how does someone just come up with Atlas Shrugged?...hmmm.

By the way, if the govt fixes the dollar to a certain amount gold than it wouldnt be fiat cause fiat currency has value based on a law declared or promises by a certain govt but doesnt have any intrinsic value...it is based on a promise...it is debt...no different than an IOU...whereas gold has intrinsic value...there is a finite amount of gold...you cant print gold out of thin air now can you...so if you fix the currency to gold by definition you better shit out some tons of gold yourself or better dig some out cause the amount of money/debt would be curtailed.

"Modern fiat" as we know it is all talk and full of promises....gold has stood the test of time and has intrinsic value...just watch over the next 5 yrs ok?...here comes another smiley for ya....


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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
You can beg me to stop embarrassing you all you want, it isn't going to happen. I'm not going away. Your embarrasment will continue no matter how childish you act, or how many smiley faces you use.

You can worship Ayn Rand fetishist Ron Paul and worship shinny rocks as much as you want, it won't change reality. The minute the gov't decides by fiat what the dollar bill to gold exchange rate will be, it IS fiat money. The minute the gov't decides by fiat what the dollar bill to silver exchange rate will be, it IS fiat money. We've always had fiat money, and there has always been fiat money going all the way back to the Romans.

When the Romans experienced inflation, and by fiat changed the purity of their coins, they had fiat money.

When the Romans decided by fiat that people were forced to sell certain goods for a fixed number of coins, they had fiat money.

In the US, dating all the way back to the Civil War, the US issued bonds that were not backed by gold and silver. Fiat money. It's always been with us.

Your rock worship won't solve inflation. Your rock worship won't eliminate gov't fiat control over our monetary system. Your beliefs are childish at best, and outright delusionary and dangerous at worst.

So there goes all your arguements about that down the toilet. Now let's deal with REALITY RIGHT NOW. Go study exponential population growth and let me know when you understand that it took millions of years until about 1920 for the first billion people to be born. Then in a little over 20 years, the next billion people were born. In less than 20 years, the next billion, now in just the last dozen years, the population has added another billion. Just since we went off the gold standard, we've roughly DOUBLED world population. Notice how this is COMPLETELY different than historic old days you pine for? All the out of date money policies that didn't even work the way you think they did in the old days are now completely irrelevant in the backdrop of modern exponential population growth.

Come back when you grow up from reguritating decades old 1980's campaign slogans that Ron Paul used in the run-up to his 1988 failed run for the Presidency.
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      07-25-2011, 11:43 PM   #250
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Did you also spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express?

You trolled some financial websites, so now you think you know something? Get some real world experience and come back.

....now that says it all my friend...and with that I am out...word of advice, please dont come to a gun fight with a butter knife ...
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      07-25-2011, 11:51 PM   #251
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....now that says it all my friend...and with that I am out...word of advice, please dont come to a gun fight with a butter knife ...

You aren't my friend, buddy. And the joke is on you -- this isn't a gun fight.

It is a battle of knowledge, and you came to the fight completely unarmed.

On your way out, don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

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      07-26-2011, 12:00 AM   #252
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I didn't think you would even acknowledge exponential population growth. Too much of a powerful argument for you to even touch. Exponential growth will defeat any argument for a monetary system shackled to anything linear-based every time.


All you have is more Ron Paul / Ayn Rand Russian godless anti-Christian mysticism. Ayn Rand didn't know jack about economics, any more than L. Ron Hubbard knew about Religion. They are both fiction writers. Your beliefs are based upon works of fiction.



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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
Once again you fail!...

Its ok, I think we all know where we both stand now...

Do you ever wonder how and why Ayn Rand knew so much?...hmm...wonder why Alan Greenspan used to visit her in her apt?...they must walk in similar circles no?...how does someone just come up with Atlas Shrugged?...hmmm.

By the way, if the govt fixes the dollar to a certain amount gold than it wouldnt be fiat cause fiat currency has value based on a law declared or promises by a certain govt but doesnt have any intrinsic value...it is based on a promise...it is debt...no different than an IOU...whereas gold has intrinsic value...there is a finite amount of gold...you cant print gold out of thin air now can you...so if you fix the currency to gold by definition you better shit out some tons of gold yourself or better dig some out cause the amount of money/debt would be curtailed.

"Modern fiat" as we know it is all talk and full of promises....gold has stood the test of time and has intrinsic value...just watch over the next 5 yrs ok?...here comes another smiley for ya....

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      07-26-2011, 12:30 AM   #253
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Fiat Money HAS to be backed up by commodity; Gold, silver, etc.

You print too much money, and the value of fiat money goes down, unless you dig up more gold. If you dont, then you raise the price of Gold to keep the value of Fiat Money.

But Nixon ended the international gold standard and for the first time no currency in the world had a gold backing.

So now the Dollar price has going to shit because we are in Debt. Most countries are dumping their Dollar reserves.
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      07-26-2011, 11:13 AM   #254
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Last night John Boehner whined:

"Before I served in Congress, I ran a small business in Ohio. I was amazed at how different Washington DC operated than every business in America. Where most American business make the hard choices to pay their bills and live within their means, in Washington more spending and more debt is business as usual."

What did Boehner run? A lemonade stand?

Debt is the entire basis of the success of every major business not only in America, but globally. It's called the Stock Market. The entire Stock Market, Venture Capital, and Corporate Bond Market, etc. is ENTIRELY created by companies racking up debt in order to start, expand, and operate.

I don't know what small town po-dunk little rat hole of a business Boehner ran in Ohio, but in the REAL business world, "more spending and more debt" IS "business as usual". Corporate Debt is the cornerstone of our entire modern financial system.

No wonder Boehner can't do his job. He's trying to run the country like a lemonade stand.
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      07-26-2011, 12:50 PM   #255
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Seriously man, do you even know M3 is?...do you know why it is imp?...and how would you even know M3 since the govt stopped printing this number 6 yrs ago?...wonder why they stopped doing this haha????

The reason why M3 was important in the past was because when the Fed Reserve put money into the banking system in the past, they ACTUALLY made loans with this...this caused the money velocity/multiplier effect to rise as this money actually got out into society and amplified.

Well, the Federal Reserve just expanded their balance sheet by 5T over the past 3 yrs...guess where this money went to?..not you and me!!!!!...loan standards are tighter than ever...the banks are using this money for their black box trading and buying up futures in SPX, gold, cotton, copper, etc...that is why these commodity prices keep going up along with smart people knowing these prices must go up as long as the govt and the Feds keep printing...hence we pay more at the pump and pay more for cotton jeans and etc...they also buy short term bonds receiving interest while getting the money from the Feds at "real" negative interest rates, hence its a no lose situation for them.

I used to hang out at financial websites before the BMW MB's....
I just agreed something that someone else said. What do I know about M3? Maybe nothing for all you know. Maybe a lot. My post was not intended to impress you.
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      07-26-2011, 01:17 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Last night John Boehner whined:

"Before I served in Congress, I ran a small business in Ohio. I was amazed at how different Washington DC operated than every business in America. Where most American business make the hard choices to pay their bills and live within their means, in Washington more spending and more debt is business as usual."

What did Boehner run? A lemonade stand?

Debt is the entire basis of the success of every major business not only in America, but globally. It's called the Stock Market. The entire Stock Market, Venture Capital, and Corporate Bond Market, etc. is ENTIRELY created by companies racking up debt in order to start, expand, and operate.

I don't know what small town po-dunk little rat hole of a business Boehner ran in Ohio, but in the REAL business world, "more spending and more debt" IS "business as usual". Corporate Debt is the cornerstone of our entire modern financial system.

No wonder Boehner can't do his job. He's trying to run the country like a lemonade stand.
I'm sure a few of his aides will politely tell him how wrong he is .

And you're absolutely correct. Debt financing is integral to growing a business - unless you're already loaded or content with a single lemonade stand
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      07-26-2011, 01:56 PM   #257
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I'm sure a few of his aides will politely tell him how wrong he is .

And you're absolutely correct. Debt financing is integral to growing a business - unless you're already loaded or content with a single lemonade stand
Thanks. I may have actually given Boehner too much credit in saying he may have started a lemonade stand. Even a lemonade stand requires going into debt and borrowing startup cash from Venture Capital investors (mom and dad).
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      07-26-2011, 02:04 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Debt is the entire basis of the success of every major business not only in America, but globally. It's called the Stock Market. The entire Stock Market, Venture Capital, and Corporate Bond Market, etc. is ENTIRELY created by companies racking up debt in order to start, expand, and operate.
While I agree with most of what you've said here, one fairly petty correction. The stock market is comprised of companies selling equity for funding, not debt. The corporate bond market is comprised of companies issuing debt.

The amount of debt a company carries before going public, if any, is a significant factor in its valuation.
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      07-26-2011, 02:58 PM   #259
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You aren't my friend, buddy. And the joke is on you -- this isn't a gun fight.

It is a battle of knowledge, and you came to the fight completely unarmed.

On your way out, don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

OK, I am back....

Your lack of knowledge is abundantly to clear for all to see...you dont understand finance at all...dont know get fractional banking, inflation, corporate financing, etc.

Why dont you try to learn something...seriously...will help you in the long run.

I am not your friend?...well geez, I am so sad...

When you take it to this level I know you have admitted defeat whether you admit or not.

You think its essential for corporations to take on debt to grow huh?..tell that to AAPL and all the other co's who are growing fine withoput debt!...it took Microsoft like 30 yrs to issue a whopping 3B in debt when they are sitting on at 15B in cash if not more...you really dont have a clue I am sorry to say.

Keep it up man, your butter knife cuts deep...
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      07-26-2011, 03:01 PM   #260
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I just agreed something that someone else said. What do I know about M3? Maybe nothing for all you know. Maybe a lot. My post was not intended to impress you.

I made a smart ass remark to you but I retract that statement...I apologize for being rude to you earlier...I have no beef with you...I try to behave in civil fashion to the ones who behave the same way.

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      07-26-2011, 03:03 PM   #261
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Lemonade stand, heck many business dont require debt to start of with, but you do need capital, money. And many do start of with a capital that is debt free.
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      07-26-2011, 03:22 PM   #262
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While I agree with most of what you've said here, one fairly petty correction. The stock market is comprised of companies selling equity for funding, not debt. The corporate bond market is comprised of companies issuing debt.

The amount of debt a company carries before going public, if any, is a significant factor in its valuation.

In a very technical sense, you are absolutely correct.

But I'm trying to analyze this in the spirit of rough comparison that Boehner himself made in his original statements.

Obviously if we want to get down to the technical details at that level, then Boehner's comparison would be outright absurd, as the Federal Government doesn't meet ANY standards of being a business at all.
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      07-26-2011, 03:30 PM   #263
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Lemonade stand, heck many business dont require debt to start of with, but you do need capital, money. And many do start of with a capital that is debt free.

Many small businesses structure their start-up capital as a loan to the business entity, even when the start up capital comes from the pockets of the sole proprietor.

Don't know if you incorporated your lemonade stand differently?
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      07-26-2011, 03:32 PM   #264
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Microsoft ... issue a whopping 3B in debt

Thanks for proving my point. Even highly profitable companies issue debt. Debt is an integral part of the business sector.
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