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      07-26-2011, 05:47 PM   #287
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Wow you are simply a dolt...when the govt and the Fed's force low interest rates, businesses like the banks can do quite well as they are receiving money at "real" negative interest rates and get real positive returns by buying short term debt even if its at low yield...but when the govt borrows, they actually have to pay real interest rates because who do you think is paying for the treasury auctions???...its the Fed's...dont you have a prob with the US govt selling IOU notes to the Fed's who print the money out of thin air to buy these treasuries?..if you dont, dont whine next time youre pumping your gas cause its all interconnected.

Your logic makes no sense what so ever.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Then you should be REALLY happy about the US gov't debt! Check out these low low interest rates!! Talk about free money!!

Based upon your logic, if we were to run the United States Gov't the way Businesses run, we should INCREASE the amount of debt we issue, so we can be more like Microsoft


COUPON MATURITY PRICE/YIELD PRICE/YIELD CHANGE TIME
3-Month 0.000 10/27/2011 0.07 / 0.07 0.015 / 0.015 16:59
6-Month 0.000 01/26/2012 0.10 / 0.10 0.000 / 0.000 16:58
12-Month 0.000 06/28/2012 0.19 / 0.19 0.010 / 0.010 16:51
2-Year 0.375 06/30/2013 99-31¼ / 0.39 0-01+ / -0.020 16:59
3-Year 0.625 07/15/2014 99-30 / 0.65 0-03 / -0.032 16:59
5-Year 1.500 06/30/2016 100-03 / 1.48 0-06¾ / -0.045 17:00
7-Year 2.375 06/30/2018 100-31 / 2.22 0-09 / -0.044 16:57
10-Year 3.125 05/15/2021 101-14+ / 2.95 0-13 / -0.048 16:59
30-Year 4.375 05/15/2041 101-17½ / 4.28 0-20 / -0.037 16:59
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      07-26-2011, 05:52 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by KGB7 View Post
And a company not paying back taxes is a fraud as well. Not paying taxes is a fraud. Because the chairs that are part of a company cant be sent to jail or held responsible for fraud, let alone pay taxes on time, even though they are part of a company.

Here i found an example that clearly shows that you are wrong. And he wasnt trying to commit fraud or avoid paying taxes.

http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/b...axes-pays.html
I hate to break it to you, but every single aspect of what Madoff did met the
9 elements of fraud:

1) A representation of an existing fact
2) The materiality of said fact
3) The falsity of said fact
4) The speaker's knowledge of the falsity of said fact
5) The speaker's intent that said fact shall be acted upon by the plaintiff
6) The plaintiff's ignorance of the falsity of said fact
7) The plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation of said fact
8) The plaintiff's right to rely upon said fact
9) There were consequent damages suffered by plaintiff as a result of action
in response to said fact.

So he very much was trying to commit a fraud. He may have been trying to quit, but by continuing his actions, he had both the mens rea and actus reus to make his actions fraud. In short, he was very much trying to commit fraud, regardless of his intent.

In response to your article (just realized that you were talking about the article and not Madoff): In the US, a conviction for tax fraud requires slightly different elements than above, and requires that the plaintiff knows that his actions are defrauding the IRS. In this case, since the plaintiff acknowledged that he had been instructed to change his payment process, and continued to act as he always had. In the eyes of the U.S. Tax Code, his actions post the receipt n and acknowledgment of said IRS instruction, were enough to meet the requirement for knowledge that his actions were defrauding the IRS...
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      07-26-2011, 05:58 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
Wow you are simply a dolt...when the govt and the Fed's force low interest rates, businesses like the banks can do quite well as they are receiving money at "real" negative interest rates and get real positive returns by buying short term debt even if its at low yield...but when the govt borrows, they actually have to pay real interest rates because who do you think is paying for the treasury auctions???...its the Fed's...dont you have a prob with the US govt selling IOU notes to the Fed's who print the money out of thin air to buy these treasuries?..if you dont, dont whine next time youre pumping your gas cause its all interconnected.

Your logic makes no sense what so ever.
MY logic?

I was just applying YOUR OWN LOGIC as to why it was good that Microsoft was borrowing at low rates, to the US gov't. Just like Boehner tried to do with business and gov't.

If you have a problem with the logic in my post, and you don't think it is good for the Gov't to borrow, then it is YOUR OWN LOGIC you have a problem with.

You are as bad as John Boehner. You talk about how the gov't should be run like businesses in one breath, and then go crying when it is pointed out that the way businesses run doesn't apply the same when it comes to running the gov't.
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      07-26-2011, 06:12 PM   #290
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Back on topic.

John Boehner last night also said

"there is no stalemate in Congress...this week, while the Senate is struggling to pass a bill filled with phony accounting and Washington gimmicks, we will pass another bill - one that was developed with the support of the bipartisan leadership of the U.S. Senate.

I expect that bill can and will pass the Senate, and be sent to the president for his signature.
"

Now Boehner's own party is making a liar out of him. Not only does it look like this will never even reach the Senate or the President, but his own Republican House caucus is revolting against them and it looks like they will keep Boehner's bill from even passing the House!

"Rep. Jim Jordan of Ohio, chairman of a large group of conservative Republicans, sent a tremor through the Capitol Tuesday when he said he doubted Boehner had enough support to pass his plan

'As of this morning, I'm confident there's not 218 Republicans in support of the plan,' said Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio."
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      07-26-2011, 06:22 PM   #291
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Why are you even making an issue out of a non-issue?...do you really think we will default right now?...what a joke...you really dont think we wont raise the debt limit when you yourself said that virtually every president whether repub or demo did it...what does that tell you...even if they miss the deadline next week it will just be posturing to scare the stock mkt...it will get done trust me sooner or later...fiat economy has to raise the debt ceiling in order to survive, its simple math...debt is money and vice versa but with interest, there isnt ebough money in the world to ever pay back all the loans, so the money supply has to grow by definition or the banks cash cow will end, which you know they wont allow to happen....have you seen the graph of govt debt vs societal money supply over the past 100 yrs...it matches exactly.

Who cares what Boehner says right now...its just a game...we will pass the debt ceiling just like we will get QE 3 and beyond I am sure of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Back on topic.

John Boehner last night also said

"there is no stalemate in Congress...this week, while the Senate is struggling to pass a bill filled with phony accounting and Washington gimmicks, we will pass another bill - one that was developed with the support of the bipartisan leadership of the U.S. Senate.

I expect that bill can and will pass the Senate, and be sent to the president for his signature.
"

Now Boehner's own party is making a liar out of him. Not only does it look like this will never even reach the Senate or the President, but his own Republican House caucus is revolting against them and it looks like they will keep Boehner's bill from even passing the House!

"Rep. Jim Jordan of Ohio, chairman of a large group of conservative Republicans, sent a tremor through the Capitol Tuesday when he said he doubted Boehner had enough support to pass his plan

'As of this morning, I'm confident there's not 218 Republicans in support of the plan,' said Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio."
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      07-26-2011, 06:40 PM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
Why are you even making an issue out of a non-issue?...do you really think we will default right now?...what a joke...you really dont think we wont raise the debt limit when you yourself said that virtually every president whether repub or demo did it...what does that tell you...even if they miss the deadline next week it will just be posturing to scare the stock mkt...it will get done trust me sooner or later...fiat economy has to raise the debt ceiling in order to survive, its simple math...debt is money and vice versa but with interest, there isnt ebough money in the world to ever pay back all the loans, so the money supply has to grow by definition or the banks cash cow will end, which you know they wont allow to happen....have you seen the graph of govt debt vs societal money supply over the past 100 yrs...it matches exactly.

Who cares what Boehner says right now...its just a game...we will pass the debt ceiling just like we will get QE 3 and beyond I am sure of it.

I hope you are right. Your argument is very logical and sound in this one single post, and I agree that raising the debt limit is manditory.

But the House isn't voting based upon sound and logical reasoning. The House (under Boehner) has MADE a non-issue into an issue intentionally. Republicans intentionally tied a non-manditory vote on deficit reduction to a manditory vote on the debt limit on purpose to CAUSE a crisis. Republican Mission Accomplished. What I'm worried about is whether or not Boehner is competent enough at his job to de-escalate the artificial crisis he intentionally caused.

I have absolutely NO trust that Boehner can dig himself and our country out of the hole he intentionally dug. He may end up being a victim of his own lies and rhetoric, and he might take down the rest of us with him. Right now his OWN PARTY is revolting against him and saying they aren't going to help him dig us out:

"Rep. Jim Jordan of Ohio, chairman of a large group of conservative Republicans, sent a tremor through the Capitol Tuesday when he said he doubted Boehner had enough support to pass his plan

'As of this morning, I'm confident there's not 218 Republicans in support of the plan,' said Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio."

And it's not just me saying that Boehner might not be able to dig his way out of this. Listen to what Rep. Tom Petri, R-Wis. a 33-year House Republican veteran said when asked how Boehner will get out of his predicament. Petri paused and said: "When I think of it, I'll give him a call."

Last edited by 11Series; 07-26-2011 at 07:24 PM.
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      07-26-2011, 06:56 PM   #293
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      07-26-2011, 07:18 PM   #294
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The president will roll over and take the best deal he can get. He is waaaay too smart to let himself get in the position of deciding who gets their check and who doesn't. Whatever class of person doesn't get paid will NEVER, EVER vote for a democrat again. Memories are long. A deal is imminent and if the republicans just stay the course they will get what they want. He will blink first.

Edit: Perhaps more correctly, he will TRY to cut a deal at the end. It may be that it won't be available to him and, in the end, it will be his own party that will deny him the opportunity. He's too weak to force their vote in favor of his chosen course of action.

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      07-26-2011, 07:30 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
The president will roll over and take the best deal he can get. He is waaaay too smart to let himself get in the position of deciding who gets their check and who doesn't. Whatever class of person doesn't get paid will NEVER, EVER vote for a democrat again. Memories are long. A deal is imminent and if the republicans just stay the course they will get what they want. He will blink first.

Exactly what deal are you talking about?

Boehner has abandoned and burned the bridges on direct talks with Obama.

And now it's looking like he can't get his own Boehner plan (with his own name on it) passed through his own Republican House because he doesn't have enough Republican House support.

There has to actually be bill on Obama's desk for him to sign it, and right now it looks like Boehner can't deliver a bill to Obama's desk for him to even consider signing. Boehner's original version of his bill is already DOA after it got scored to have less than 1 Trillion in spending cuts, and Boehner has already conceded this failure and promised to abandon his original Boehner plan bill and re-write it.

So like I said, what bill are you talking about Obama signing?

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      07-26-2011, 08:44 PM   #296
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OK, im lost over here.

Why do you want the debt ceiling raised instead of cutting back on spending?? At the very least we should stop enough spending so the debt clock just stops dead in its track, or slightly rolls back. Im sure there are many things can be done so the debt goes in to income, even if its just $1,000 a day.


I know Govt cutting back by closing 800 data centers, thus saving around $3 billion a year, by moving services to the cloud.
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      07-26-2011, 08:47 PM   #297
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The thing I have noticed is this, all BS posturing so called issues or events magically get resolved on sundays before the mkts open...hmmm...this drives futures higher and traps bears...every significant deal I can think of happened this way, I should know since I have been trapped with this BS on many occasions on the short side.

No guarantees but I will bet anyone a dollar that a deal happens sometime on sunday July 31st.....

But even if it doesnt happen by next Wednesday it will be just a matter of time before it happens cause when mkts tank, they will succomb to public and peer pressure just like they always do.
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      07-26-2011, 08:50 PM   #298
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OMFG we agreed on something!...more shocking then Sadat-Begin Peace Treaty........to celebrate, I promise not to attack you for the rest of today(cease fire)...but come tomorrow, its on again!...



Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
I hope you are right. Your argument is very logical and sound in this one single post, and I agree that raising the debt limit is manditory.

But the House isn't voting based upon sound and logical reasoning. The House (under Boehner) has MADE a non-issue into an issue intentionally. Republicans intentionally tied a non-manditory vote on deficit reduction to a manditory vote on the debt limit on purpose to CAUSE a crisis. Republican Mission Accomplished. What I'm worried about is whether or not Boehner is competent enough at his job to de-escalate the artificial crisis he intentionally caused.

I have absolutely NO trust that Boehner can dig himself and our country out of the hole he intentionally dug. He may end up being a victim of his own lies and rhetoric, and he might take down the rest of us with him. Right now his OWN PARTY is revolting against him and saying they aren't going to help him dig us out:

"Rep. Jim Jordan of Ohio, chairman of a large group of conservative Republicans, sent a tremor through the Capitol Tuesday when he said he doubted Boehner had enough support to pass his plan

'As of this morning, I'm confident there's not 218 Republicans in support of the plan,' said Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio."

And it's not just me saying that Boehner might not be able to dig his way out of this. Listen to what Rep. Tom Petri, R-Wis. a 33-year House Republican veteran said when asked how Boehner will get out of his predicament. Petri paused and said: "When I think of it, I'll give him a call."
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      07-26-2011, 09:08 PM   #299
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Yep. The bush tax cuts raised our deficits $14.3 trillion.
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      07-26-2011, 09:17 PM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post

So like I said, what bill are you talking about Obama signing?
No idea, yet. My point is that he is going to sign something, anything that gets him out from under responsibility for apportioning losses to the peeps.

But one sure thing--it won't be legislation based on anything our dear leader has put forward.
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      07-26-2011, 10:04 PM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
Yep. The bush tax cuts raised our deficits $14.3 trillion.
just stop
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      07-26-2011, 10:11 PM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB7 View Post
OK, im lost over here.

Why do you want the debt ceiling raised instead of cutting back on spending?? At the very least we should stop enough spending so the debt clock just stops dead in its track, or slightly rolls back. Im sure there are many things can be done so the debt goes in to income, even if its just $1,000 a day.


I know Govt cutting back by closing 800 data centers, thus saving around $3 billion a year, by moving services to the cloud.
No one WANTS to raise the debt ceiling (at least I don't), but it has to be raised for our government to meet its obligations.

In order to JUST make our interest and principal payments on loans, without raising the debt ceiling, thousands of programs would need to be cut by August 2nd. Social security, medicare, defense...and many others would literally need to stop overnight, which isn't fair or feasible in the slightest. This isn't as simple as a corporation axing a bunch of employees - there needs to be time and warning in order to allow private parties to come into play, to ensure that vital services (such as social security payments and healthcare insurance) are not suddenly absent. And let's not forget that default simply is not an option - there are plenty of articles circling around explaining why this would be catastrophic from an economic and political standpoint.

There needs to be a phased reduction in expenditure, which both parties seem to agree to. The issue revolves around what needs to be cut, and how much.

Let's not forget that the United States Government is a HUGE player in the American economy. If all government expenditure in excess of revenue were to stop overnight, that would provide a huge shock to an already fragile economy. There needs to be time for private parties to step in to cover for services the US government will no longer provide.

Your idea is correct, but it can't be done SO quickly without major repercussions. The best analogy I can give is to the war in Afghanistan right now - if we decided right this second to withdraw EVERYONE from there, it would be messy and dangerous for us and them. But if we withdraw troops over time, it's safer for our troops as well as the local population.
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      07-26-2011, 11:00 PM   #303
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^^^^^^ this.


(Plus not a single party, Democratic or Republican has proposed an actual balanced budget plan that would stop the debt from growing. All of them require an increase in the debt limit, even the Republican ones.)

Last edited by 11Series; 07-26-2011 at 11:22 PM.
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      07-26-2011, 11:13 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by pman10 View Post

In order to JUST make our interest and principal payments on loans, without raising the debt ceiling, thousands of programs would need to be cut by August 2nd. Social security, medicare, defense...and many others would literally need to stop overnight, which isn't fair or feasible in the slightest. This isn't as simple as a corporation axing a bunch of employees - there needs to be time and warning in order to allow private parties to come into play, to ensure that vital services (such as social security payments and healthcare insurance) are not suddenly absent. And let's not forget that default simply is not an option - there are plenty of articles circling around explaining why this would be catastrophic from an economic and political standpoint.

Let's not forget that the United States Government is a HUGE player in the American economy. If all government expenditure in excess of revenue were to stop overnight, that would provide a huge shock to an already fragile economy. There needs to be time for private parties to step in to cover for services the US government will no longer provide.
You've hit an important point here, but one that most people miss, the difference between a Political and Economic default

There is plenty of tax revenue coming in to continue make the payments on our outstanding debt, so if we were to "default" it would be a Political Default other than a true Economic Default. In order to continue payments on the debt without adding to the debt limit, spending on virtually everything would have to be drastically and immediately cut. Financially, it could be done, but the social consequences would be unbearable to some.

I'm not advocating this, just pointing it out.

Also, as an aside before everyone says the financial world is going to explodes, our risk of default as priced by people buying Credit-Default Swaps (default insurance) against U.S. sovereign debt (5 year CDS trades for 50 basis points/yr) is still far less than that of Greece (1 year CDS trades for 1500 basis points/yr)

Finally, do any of you actually know what the Corporate-Jet loophole is and what it allows companies to do?
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      07-27-2011, 12:41 AM   #305
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Is it really a tax loophole?...not sure how it is different than any other industry taking depreciation for high expense machines or tools...even the tax break for depreciation for oil industry(the other target) is a very slight gain for the oil industry...in reality, the Obama administration is making an example of corporate opulence and trying to close this supposed loophole despite the fact that many industries get these same depreciation tax write offs...so if they close the loophole for corporate jets and the oil industry, I have read that this would make up about 0.2% of this yrs deficit...so in reality, its to make a point, cause this is pre-election year...gotta look like the good police???...but I am not a CPA so this is my best guess.




Quote:
Originally Posted by arggg45 View Post
You've hit an important point here, but one that most people miss, the difference between a Political and Economic default

There is plenty of tax revenue coming in to continue make the payments on our outstanding debt, so if we were to "default" it would be a Political Default other than a true Economic Default. In order to continue payments on the debt without adding to the debt limit, spending on virtually everything would have to be drastically and immediately cut. Financially, it could be done, but the social consequences would be unbearable to some.

I'm not advocating this, just pointing it out.

Also, as an aside before everyone says the financial world is going to explodes, our risk of default as priced by people buying Credit-Default Swaps (default insurance) against U.S. sovereign debt (5 year CDS trades for 50 basis points/yr) is still far less than that of Greece (1 year CDS trades for 1500 basis points/yr)

Finally, do any of you actually know what the Corporate-Jet loophole is and what it allows companies to do?
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      07-27-2011, 07:37 AM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
Yep. The bush tax cuts raised our deficits $14.3 trillion.
Well, they are one of the biggest items effecting our deficit:



That and having 2 unfunded wars.
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      07-27-2011, 09:27 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
Is it really a tax loophole?...not sure how it is different than any other industry taking depreciation for high expense machines or tools...even the tax break for depreciation for oil industry(the other target) is a very slight gain for the oil industry...in reality, the Obama administration is making an example of corporate opulence and trying to close this supposed loophole despite the fact that many industries get these same depreciation tax write offs...
Close enough...The source of the confusion about the Corporate Jet loophole is that congress passed a “bonus depreciation” law in 2008 as part of an economic stimulus measure, and ARRA continued it. This depreciation is a broad (albeit temporary) provision that includes to a wide range of capital goods including both commercial and corporate aircraft. By contrast, the tax break at issue in the negotiations is a 1987 provision of the tax code that allows corporate jets to be depreciated over a five-year period rather than the seven-year period required for commercial aviation.Obama included the tax break, called “accelerated depreciation,” in the 2009 economic-stimulus law to lower the cost of capital investments—including aircraft purchases—for millions of companies. Today, the administration is targeting a tax disparity dating back to 1987 that specifically favors business planes over commercial airliners.

Just to give everyone a more complete picture of what is going on.

Finally, corporate jets are not necessarily "corporate opulence" as you put it. the difference in time required to fly to some places commercially vs. privately and the ability to call the hangar and be off of the ground in 30 minutes is invaluable to companies where immediate action is required. I'm not saying that every company needs a corporate jet, but it is often a more efficient use of company funds than commercial flight. That said, there are definitely companies that have jets that don't need them, but that is an issue for their shareholders and boards to deal with.
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      07-27-2011, 10:09 AM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
No one WANTS to raise the debt ceiling (at least I don't), but it has to be raised for our government to meet its obligations.

In order to JUST make our interest and principal payments on loans, without raising the debt ceiling, thousands of programs would need to be cut by August 2nd. Social security, medicare, defense...and many others would literally need to stop overnight, which isn't fair or feasible in the slightest. This isn't as simple as a corporation axing a bunch of employees - there needs to be time and warning in order to allow private parties to come into play, to ensure that vital services (such as social security payments and healthcare insurance) are not suddenly absent. And let's not forget that default simply is not an option - there are plenty of articles circling around explaining why this would be catastrophic from an economic and political standpoint.

There needs to be a phased reduction in expenditure, which both parties seem to agree to. The issue revolves around what needs to be cut, and how much.

Let's not forget that the United States Government is a HUGE player in the American economy. If all government expenditure in excess of revenue were to stop overnight, that would provide a huge shock to an already fragile economy. There needs to be time for private parties to step in to cover for services the US government will no longer provide.

Your idea is correct, but it can't be done SO quickly without major repercussions. The best analogy I can give is to the war in Afghanistan right now - if we decided right this second to withdraw EVERYONE from there, it would be messy and dangerous for us and them. But if we withdraw troops over time, it's safer for our troops as well as the local population.

Thanks, that made perfect sense.
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