E90Post
 


Lux Angel Eyes
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Politics/Religion > Debt Limit



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-27-2011, 06:20 PM   #331
xbook
Lieutenant Colonel
xbook's Avatar
Zimbabwe
40
Rep
1,538
Posts

 
Drives: '14 EBII M235i & '06 R53 GP
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northridge, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E82  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
That's not an accurate comparison. You are comparing 8 years of spending to 3 years of spending. I am not advocating on behalf of either party, but if you want to make a point, that graph should be scaled on a 'per year' or at least 'per term' basis.

EDIT: I just saw that the graph puts an estimate for Obama's 'new costs'? How on earth do they know what new stimulus/spending bills Obama will pass in the next 6 years?!
I was using that graph to point out to Angel, that the Bush tax cuts are a major portion of our deficit. Not to compare spending between Obama & Bush.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 06:50 PM   #332
ghosthi32
Banned
25
Rep
2,516
Posts

 
Drives: Water camel
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: strait of hormuz

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
I wish they would lower all the tax rates and cut the red tape surrounding businesses. That would stimulate the economy and lower the unemployment rate. I don't care if government gets hurt in the short term. More working tax paying citizens would give the government a lot more money than increasing the tax rates on people making $250,000.
do you even pay taxes?
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 07:28 PM   #333
AngelinIsRich08
Banned
United_States
21
Rep
709
Posts

 
Drives: '11 X5M, '09 CTS
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO

iTrader: (0)

Yea, and I pay too much.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 07:31 PM   #334
ghosthi32
Banned
25
Rep
2,516
Posts

 
Drives: Water camel
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: strait of hormuz

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
Yea, and I pay too much.
waaa waaaa waaa life of a 18 year old is hard and so is paying taxes.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 07:42 PM   #335
lkw15
Major
lkw15's Avatar
United_States
23
Rep
1,076
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
1991 318is  [0.00]
2015 M3  [5.00]
1976 BMW 2002  [4.67]
2013 BMW X5 35i Pre ...  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
That's not an accurate comparison. You are comparing 8 years of spending to 3 years of spending. I am not advocating on behalf of either party, but if you want to make a point, that graph should be scaled on a 'per year' or at least 'per term' basis.

EDIT: I just saw that the graph puts an estimate for Obama's 'new costs'? How on earth do they know what new stimulus/spending bills Obama will pass in the next 6 years?!
And tax cuts aren't costs.
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 08:19 PM   #336
xbook
Lieutenant Colonel
xbook's Avatar
Zimbabwe
40
Rep
1,538
Posts

 
Drives: '14 EBII M235i & '06 R53 GP
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northridge, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E82  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
Yea, and I pay too much.
7% sales tax on the pack of gum you buy with your allowance isn't really the same as paying income tax.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-27-2011, 09:12 PM   #337
Echo M3
Major
No_Country
35
Rep
1,431
Posts

 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
I was using that graph to point out to Angel, that the Bush tax cuts are a major portion of our deficit. Not to compare spending between Obama & Bush.
Gotcha. I didn't pick up on that
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 06:57 AM   #338
F32Fleet
BMWCCA since '03
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
69
Rep
5,338
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Atlanta (Vinings)

iTrader: (0)

If you bozos want to read up on default read the daily articles on mises.org.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 10:02 AM   #339
lkw15
Major
lkw15's Avatar
United_States
23
Rep
1,076
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
1991 318is  [0.00]
2015 M3  [5.00]
1976 BMW 2002  [4.67]
2013 BMW X5 35i Pre ...  [5.00]
Looks like there will be a vote today on the Boehner plan - it's going to be a close one! I wonder what Reid and the Dems will do in the Senate. There really isn't a whole lot of time left - if the House passes it tonight, then the Senate has to begin debate immediately to get it wrapped up by Tuesday. And that's assuming the President will sign it.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 10:03 AM   #340
Myriad
Lieutenant
5
Rep
563
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335i 6MT
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond, VA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkw15 View Post
And tax cuts aren't costs.
What about the (ostensibly) foregone revenue that results from a decrease in the tax rate?
__________________
ZPP / ZSP / Navi
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 10:24 AM   #341
mact3333
Captain
mact3333's Avatar
41
Rep
781
Posts

 
Drives: 11' Audi S4
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pacific NW

iTrader: (1)

1. when tax rates go down, it temporarily decrease taxes collected, but few yrs after it brings in more, as lower tax rate stimulates the economy...this has been shown multiple times.

2. whether it this weekend(sunday i predict) or two wks from now after stock mkt gets a beat down for posturing and all hell breaks loose, the debt limit WILL be raised...it has to...thats how the ponzi works...you have to raise the money supply to pay for the interest owed and other obligations. or the system will crash.

3. it is laughable that they bring up what a debt rating decrease would do to mainstreet...gonna raise the interest rates what a point?...people, we are at historic lows with respect to interest rates...one day soon we will see it around 8-10% just like it has always been...3% is an extreme that CANNOT last...everyone knows this...so higher interest rates in our future is a given no matter what...low interest rates are killing the people who have saved all their lives and want safe retruns, which are running lower than inflation.

4. we keep kicking the can down the road and that is our answer to everything...but at some point, the bond vigilantes will DEMAND more yield given the risk of US debt...interest rates will go up...if you decrease the money supply and actually do whats responsible and decrease govt and spending, our economy will crash but eventually we will recover and get back to a norm...if we keep doing what we are doing, we will tip the scales one day beyond a point of no return and the entire system will prob collapse one day....maybe soon.

History has shown when debt to GDP ratio gets near 400 like we are at today, economies and society tends to collapse...our national debt to gdp is around 100% now, this ratio has caused several countries to have hyperinflation in the past, as their currencies got annihilated.

5. raising the debt ceiling is like giving a teenager who has racked up 10K in Visa bills buying clothes and iphones and raising their credit card limit rather than dealing with their spending issue...rather than forcing them pay some back and putting a stop to uncontrolled spending, what we are doing is this, we are saying " ok we know its really hard to stop spending so lets come up with a plan over 10 yrs to, not stop spending, but to decrease the rate abit ok?...but in the mean time, we will raise your limit cause spending is like heroin, you gotta spend abit more for now and we will "try" to taper it down sssllloooowwwllllyyyy.

BTW, just because someone says they will decrease spending by 3T over 10 yrs doesnt mean it will happen...I will bet my last dollar it wont happen cause history shows, it never does happen...might happen for 1-2 yrs but over long run, it has never happened.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 11:23 AM   #342
KGB7
Crazy Russian Bastard
KGB7's Avatar
United_States
13
Rep
824
Posts

 
Drives: 01 740i sport
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Siberian Prison

iTrader: (0)

In latest news, US Govt is spending more money to study a catch phrase; "Thats what she said!"

http://biggovernment.com/jgriffith/2...-she-said-use/


And people wonder why the spending is out of control.
__________________
B
M
W
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 11:26 AM   #343
Echo M3
Major
No_Country
35
Rep
1,431
Posts

 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
1. when tax rates go down, it temporarily decrease taxes collected, but few yrs after it brings in more, as lower tax rate stimulates the economy...this has been shown multiple times.

2. whether it this weekend(sunday i predict) or two wks from now after stock mkt gets a beat down for posturing and all hell breaks loose, the debt limit WILL be raised...it has to...thats how the ponzi works...you have to raise the money supply to pay for the interest owed and other obligations. or the system will crash.

3. it is laughable that they bring up what a debt rating decrease would do to mainstreet...gonna raise the interest rates what a point?...people, we are at historic lows with respect to interest rates...one day soon we will see it around 8-10% just like it has always been...3% is an extreme that CANNOT last...everyone knows this...so higher interest rates in our future is a given no matter what...low interest rates are killing the people who have saved all their lives and want safe retruns, which are running lower than inflation.

4. we keep kicking the can down the road and that is our answer to everything...but at some point, the bond vigilantes will DEMAND more yield given the risk of US debt...interest rates will go up...if you decrease the money supply and actually do whats responsible and decrease govt and spending, our economy will crash but eventually we will recover and get back to a norm...if we keep doing what we are doing, we will tip the scales one day beyond a point of no return and the entire system will prob collapse one day....maybe soon.

History has shown when debt to GDP ratio gets near 400 like we are at today, economies and society tends to collapse...our national debt to gdp is around 100% now, this ratio has caused several countries to have hyperinflation in the past, as their currencies got annihilated.

5. raising the debt ceiling is like giving a teenager who has racked up 10K in Visa bills buying clothes and iphones and raising their credit card limit rather than dealing with their spending issue...rather than forcing them pay some back and putting a stop to uncontrolled spending, what we are doing is this, we are saying " ok we know its really hard to stop spending so lets come up with a plan over 10 yrs to, not stop spending, but to decrease the rate abit ok?...but in the mean time, we will raise your limit cause spending is like heroin, you gotta spend abit more for now and we will "try" to taper it down sssllloooowwwllllyyyy.

BTW, just because someone says they will decrease spending by 3T over 10 yrs doesnt mean it will happen...I will bet my last dollar it wont happen cause history shows, it never does happen...might happen for 1-2 yrs but over long run, it has never happened.
#1 is not necessarily true, see the Laffer curve.

As for the rest - I more or less agree with the principles of your argument. I just think there needs to be a measured approach to reducing the deficit - not slashing all spending overnight.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 11:37 AM   #344
lkw15
Major
lkw15's Avatar
United_States
23
Rep
1,076
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
1991 318is  [0.00]
2015 M3  [5.00]
1976 BMW 2002  [4.67]
2013 BMW X5 35i Pre ...  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
What about the (ostensibly) foregone revenue that results from a decrease in the tax rate?
What about the (ostensibly) increased revenue that results from economic growth as a result of a decrease in the tax rate?
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 11:52 AM   #345
mact3333
Captain
mact3333's Avatar
41
Rep
781
Posts

 
Drives: 11' Audi S4
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pacific NW

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
#1 is not necessarily true, see the Laffer curve.

As for the rest - I more or less agree with the principles of your argument. I just think there needs to be a measured approach to reducing the deficit - not slashing all spending overnight.

I dont listen to a word Laffer says...he, to me, is a joke...even his Laffer Curve isnt his idea...Keynes talked about this a long time ago...this guy has embarrassed himself so many times on CNBC its amazing he is invited back.......and who knows at which tax rate the Laffer curve will peak to collect the most tax revenue.


Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 12:54 PM   #346
Myriad
Lieutenant
5
Rep
563
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335i 6MT
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond, VA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkw15 View Post
What about the (ostensibly) increased revenue that results from economic growth as a result of a decrease in the tax rate?
I will concede that revenue will increase as a result of a tax cut. However, I do not believe that this increase in revenue will be enough to offset the loss in income. I will freely admit that I do not hold a doctorate in Economics, this is just an opinion I have from undergraduate + OMB reading.

I think this opinion is corroborated by tax receipts in the years after Bush's tax cuts were put into effect. Now one could argue that these results were skewed by the sluggish post-recessionary growth through the mid 2000's. But, one could also argue that the Reagan results were a result of technological growth and had nothing to do with MTR's. This indicates to me that results are inconclusive, and I'd rather have government get assured revenues rather than possible revenues, as a result of my admittedly liberal slant.
__________________
ZPP / ZSP / Navi

Last edited by Myriad; 07-28-2011 at 03:54 PM.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 03:21 PM   #347
11Series
.
6
Rep
668
Posts

 
Drives: BMW turned up to 11
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: These things go to eleven

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkw15 View Post
What about the (ostensibly) increased revenue that results from economic growth as a result of a decrease in the tax rate?
I think China and India are really loving the economic growth that are the result of the decrease in the US tax rates over the last decade. Lower US tax rates have given US companies tons of money to build plants and hire workers in India, China, etc.

How do you feel about putting our children into debt in order to fund the largest expansion of the middle class in history -- in China and India?
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 03:49 PM   #348
AngelinIsRich08
Banned
United_States
21
Rep
709
Posts

 
Drives: '11 X5M, '09 CTS
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO

iTrader: (0)

^^^^ China'll go broke as well if we don't fix our economy and balance our budgets.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 04:05 PM   #349
11Series
.
6
Rep
668
Posts

 
Drives: BMW turned up to 11
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: These things go to eleven

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
^^^^ China'll go broke as well if we don't fix our economy and balance our budgets.
Since you seem so worried about China going broke, you must feel REALLY HAPPY about putting our children into debt in order to fund China and India's largest expansion of the middle class in history.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 04:49 PM   #350
lkw15
Major
lkw15's Avatar
United_States
23
Rep
1,076
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 M3
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
1991 318is  [0.00]
2015 M3  [5.00]
1976 BMW 2002  [4.67]
2013 BMW X5 35i Pre ...  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
I think China and India are really loving the economic growth that are the result of the decrease in the US tax rates over the last decade. Lower US tax rates have given US companies tons of money to build plants and hire workers in India, China, etc.

How do you feel about putting our children into debt in order to fund the largest expansion of the middle class in history -- in China and India?
And? If you are an American company in business today, you better be playing globally. If you aren't reaching India or China, you aren't growing. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Taken without context, one might assume that such growth only benefits those in the developing countries; of course, that's just not true. Fortune 500 companies in the U.S. can repatriate those earnings to expand businesses in the U.S., increase marketing expenditures, hire additional employees, etc. Expanding in foreign markets does not mean that no requisite expansion is taking place in this country to support that international growth.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 05:37 PM   #351
AngelinIsRich08
Banned
United_States
21
Rep
709
Posts

 
Drives: '11 X5M, '09 CTS
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
^^^^ China'll go broke as well if we don't fix our economy and balance our budgets.
Since you seem so worried about China going broke, you must feel REALLY HAPPY about putting our children into debt in order to fund China and India's largest expansion of the middle class in history.
No. Obama and the democrats are burdening our children and grandchildren with debts. Obama's added 40% of what was already piled on top of that and he wants to increase it. By what, 70% since he took office? Please don't think the democrats are innocent. Obama's spending at historic amounts and he's the one burdening the future Americans.
Appreciate 0
      07-28-2011, 05:58 PM   #352
AngelinIsRich08
Banned
United_States
21
Rep
709
Posts

 
Drives: '11 X5M, '09 CTS
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO

iTrader: (0)

http://people-press.org/2011/07/28/obama-loses-ground-in-2012-reelection-bid/

Obama's a goner.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
angelinisagreedyracist, x5mguydontknowshit

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:53 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST