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      07-29-2011, 12:25 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by silkshocker View Post
who cares, the rich will be richer and the poor will eat out of dumpster. If Steve Jobs and Zuckerburg aren't sweating then why should we? Just another crappy debate in Washington.
cause Jobs and Zuckerburg are smart and rich and you are stupid and poor?...for starters...

Just kiddin ya bro, when the shit goes down, I am sure you will be invited into the underground complex beneath the Denver airport....
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      07-29-2011, 12:37 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by arggg45 View Post
Except that's not how International Trade or Macroeconomics works.

When a rich and poor country trade together, the benefits of trade are not typically equally distributed, and often favor the poor country because we demand more of the poor country’s goods than they demand of ours. To use your example of China and India, The United States is a capital abundant country while China and India are labor abundant countries, relative to each other, and neither country has an comparative advantage in both labor and capital. This means that the United States can produce capital intensive goods more cheaply than could China or India. On the other hand, China or India can produce labor intensive goods more cheaply than the United States. Thus, to develop their economies (Growth and Human Capital) China and India need to purchase goods in which they have a comparative disadvantage, namely our capital intensive goods. In order for the United States to focus on developing capital intensive goods, we need to purchase goods in which we have a comparative advantage, namely labor intensive goods from China and India.

The point at which we have made them 'rich enough' is the point at which our respective countries have each maximized their comparative advantage industries, and minimized their comparative disadvantage industries.

The unfortunate thing with all involved in government is that we refuse to let the market mechanisms function and allow our comparative disadvantage industries to downsize.
Thank you. Precisely the point I was trying to make, albeit not as articulately. And while the benefits favor lower income trading partners, we (the United States) are benefiting as well! People fail to realize this.
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      07-29-2011, 12:49 AM   #377
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You are just proving my point. We had a 275 billion dollar trade deficit just with China last year, and you post a story about a paltry 5 billion dollars??

Over the last decade, we've had a total of approx 1.9 TRILLION dollars in trade deficit just with China, and you're trying to say that a bump from half a billion to 5 billion actually matters? That represents less than 1% of of the last decade's trade deficit. It's a rounding error. We now blow through 5 billion in trade deficit in just 5 days, according to the latest figures.


http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html


I'm trying to choke myself back from being bitterly sarcastic, but I'm just not buying into your silver lining for this massive storm cloud.

I'm not happy at all with your idea that the upside of tax cuts that are putting our children into massive debt and sending tons of money to China and India -- is that maybe if we make China and India rich enough, they will throw us some token scraps. I'm very sorry that I'm this harsh, but this is reality and reality can be pretty harsh.
If you delve into international economics a little deeper, you will understand that:

1.) Trade deficits are not as significant a factor as many pundits believe. Read these to understand

http://www.investopedia.com/articles...#axzz1TTE11nvL

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3655

2.) You are equating trade deficits with job losses and economic misfortune. That could not be farther from the truth. This could all be explained by simply delving into some international economics.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_economics#Gains_from_trade>

Read the section on "Effects of Trade". Alternatively, open an international economics textbook. But that can get more complicated, and requires an understanding of economic growth models.
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      07-29-2011, 12:57 AM   #378
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Yes I do since businesses in the US face the highest tax rates when compared to all other countries...but I equally feel tax rates need to decrease for EVERYONE!..the 16th amendment has been stretched and has morphed into people paying 15-50% of your wages earned but it didnt start off this way...it was originally meant for 2% of the population and the max rate was supposed to be 7%...the fact that we pay taxes on wages earned if highly suspect as the true definition was for us to pay taxes on the contemporary definition of capital gains.

So taxes are grossly out of control right now...but the only way we can cut taxes is if govt stops taking bribes and start cutting govt back...decrease welfare, force people to work and compete and be productive, stop going to war for oil, stop the bailouts and let capitalism actually work....let the free mkts work, when they make mistakes, they suffer the consequences and go bankrupt...they will be replaced by smarter and better run co's.
It's pretty funny. You yourself (wittingly or unwittingly) stated exactly why tax cuts won't fix the economy. But you still can't see it.

As for our income taxes going up historically, part of that is an illusion. We phased out tariffs and phased in income taxes. Tariffs used to fund 50-90% of the US government before income taxes and other taxes replaced them. Now tariffs have been hoovering at around 1% of gov't income for the last half a century. Total taxes haven't made such a dramatic change as you claim, there has just been major shifts in how taxes have been collected.
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      07-29-2011, 07:20 AM   #379
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If we are undertaxing, why is the federal revenue at 15% of GDP vs the historic median being closer to 20%? Changing tax rate is how you locate the optimal on the bell curve. We've seen a significant decline in revenue since Bush took office, and we have not fiddled with the tax rate.
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      07-29-2011, 10:40 AM   #380
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And you seem to always miss the big elephant in the room...nothing good will happen economically over the long run unless you decrease the SIZE of government!...tax cuts or tax hikes wont make a huge difference over short run(it will over long run if we lower tax rates for all)...the govt needs to downsize and quit going into wars we dont need and stop people from being dependent on them for food and shelter....that is what most wont talk about....debt ceiling this and that is almost trivial...govt needs to get smaller and quit spending money it doesnt have, cause if they dont, we the small guys will pay for their irresponsible behavior in the way of inflation, a hidden tax for all.

Now that is the big picture!...you keep focusing on the small stuff and trying to argue away your points but in the end, we have a incompetent govt who refuses to stop spending money...if your teenager has a spending problem buying shoes and clothes, do you deal with the problem and make some unpleasant choices hence suffer in the shortrun, or do you make the tough choices that will hurt initially but in the long run will help??...well its as simple as that.

So my answer is this, tax cuts or tax hikes wont solve anything right now, but over the long run, tax cuts will be better for our economy assuming the govt can stop its crazy spending spree(which they prob cant).


And why is our tax rate continually going up an illusion because of high tariff rates of the past?...who said just because we get rid of tariff we had to jack the tax rates so high?..its because govt keeps getting bigger and bigger and we keep giving aid to countries despite us being the poorest country in the world if you look at our debt and obligations...we have dept's for everything imagineable...our forefathers were very very wise...they wanted small govt cause they inherently knew when big govt gets going, there will be fraud, ineffeciencies and clandestine motives.

The right the bear arms was enacted not only to defend ourselves from foreign invaders but more importantly, to make sure we keep the Fed govt in line.



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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
It's pretty funny. You yourself (wittingly or unwittingly) stated exactly why tax cuts won't fix the economy. But you still can't see it.

As for our income taxes going up historically, part of that is an illusion. We phased out tariffs and phased in income taxes. Tariffs used to fund 50-90% of the US government before income taxes and other taxes replaced them. Now tariffs have been hoovering at around 1% of gov't income for the last half a century. Total taxes haven't made such a dramatic change as you claim, there has just been major shifts in how taxes have been collected.

Last edited by mact3333; 07-29-2011 at 10:48 AM.
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      07-29-2011, 11:15 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by arggg45 View Post
When a rich and poor country trade together, the benefits of trade are not typically equally distributed, and often favor the poor country because we demand more of the poor country’s goods than they demand of ours. To use your example of China and India, The United States is a capital abundant country while China and India are labor abundant countries, relative to each other, and neither country has an comparative advantage in both labor and capital. This means that the United States can produce capital intensive goods more cheaply than could China or India. On the other hand, China or India can produce labor intensive goods more cheaply than the United States. Thus, to develop their economies (Growth and Human Capital) China and India need to purchase goods in which they have a comparative disadvantage, namely our capital intensive goods. In order for the United States to focus on developing capital intensive goods, we need to purchase goods in which we have a comparative advantage, namely labor intensive goods from China and India.

The point at which we have made them 'rich enough' is the point at which our respective countries have each maximized their comparative advantage industries, and minimized their comparative disadvantage industries.

The unfortunate thing with all involved in government is that we refuse to let the market mechanisms function and allow our comparative disadvantage industries to downsize.


Tell me something I didn't already know. You are just proving my point even more.

But first (since this is a BMW forum and not the Goldman Sacks lunchroom) let's put this in plain terms that everyone here can understand.

"capital intensive goods" == The stuff that Wall Street, Hedge Fund Managers, traders, bankers, CFO's, and top corporate management do. When you talk about jobs, these are the folks that do these jobs.

"labor intensive goods" == Manufacturing jobs.

In simple terms for this forum, you are claiming that it is perfectly fine that we are emptying major cities (like Detroit) and shipping all these manufacturing jobs overseas, because the small number of people employed in "capital intensive goods" are now raking in TONS more money than ever before. Profits are bigger than ever for the top 5%, so that makes up for the 25% of the rest of the US who are now either unemployed or under-employed in shitty part time jobs because their old job was shipped overseas.

In simple terms, you are saying "heck, just do the math, we are doing fine as a country on average." If you take the massive profits of the small number of folks on the top, and AVERAGE them with all the decimated incomes of the folks who used to work in Manufacturing, it all balances out. We're even-Steven.

Thank you for explaining why the growing wealth gap isn't just because people are lazy, it's because the folks in charge have KNOWINGLY structured a system that takes money from people losing jobs, and transfers it into their own pockets. It's a rigged system DESIGNED to do exactly what it has done: Strip jobs from the working and middle class so that the wealthy few in the "capital intensive goods" sector can reap massive profits.




So now that everyone knows exactly what you were talking about in simple terms, let's loop back around and take a look at the tax impact.

Your theory is that the money drained from the US Treasury and used to get rid of US jobs and send them overseas will be replaced by the taxes paid by the massive profits made by folks in the "capital intensive goods" sector. Sounds good in theory. But then you start looking at it in reality, and realize that these Wall Street folks, Hedge Fund Managers, traders, bankers, CFO's, and top corporate management have been given HUGE tax breaks, and are taking advantage of MASSIVE tax loopholes. These folks use everything from 15% capital gains taxes, to renouncing their US citizenship to avoid paying taxes. And the Republicans ENCOURAGE and ASSIST them in avoiding taxes, using the excuse that these folks are the "Job Creators", so they certainly can't be taxed. You can't tax the "Job Creators", right? Who will create jobs in China and India if we tax these guys, right? Heck, you can't run a country just taxing the rich, or you will run out of rich people to tax!

So no, even under your theory, the US Treasury IS NOT getting refilled. The money drained from the US Treasury and used to get rid of US jobs and send them overseas are not getting replaced, it is being re-routed into the back pockets of the "Job Creators".

Last edited by 11Series; 07-29-2011 at 11:54 AM.
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      07-29-2011, 11:40 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
If you delve into international economics a little deeper, you will understand that:

1.) Trade deficits are not as significant a factor as many pundits believe. Read these to understand

http://www.investopedia.com/articles...#axzz1TTE11nvL

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3655

2.) You are equating trade deficits with job losses and economic misfortune. That could not be farther from the truth. This could all be explained by simply delving into some international economics.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_economics#Gains_from_trade>

Read the section on "Effects of Trade". Alternatively, open an international economics textbook. But that can get more complicated, and requires an understanding of economic growth models.

You are making the same argument as argggggg, except you have added a level of abstraction by using GDP numbers and corporate profits to express the "averaging" effect.

GDP is in effect an average. You total up ALL productivity from poor and rich and put it in a single number, and you've created a measure of the AVERAGE productivity of US workers. Again, this is a way of washing away the misery of the shrinking middle class, and the 25% of folks who are unemployed or under-employed, by averaging their misery into a number that includes the massive ever-increasing profits of the top 5% individuals and corporations.

The more the top 5% of individuals and corporations profit, the more working and middle-class misery can be averaged into GDP numbers and have GDP growth remain positive.

I will absolutely concede that GDP and other economic measures have NOT been AT ALL been as negatively impacted by US jobs being shipped overseas, as the US working class and middle-class workers have been impacted.



Again, as I said to arrrrgggggg, the net result has NOT been for tax cuts to refill the US Treasury with new tax revenues, because the transfer of wealth has been into the hands of the same folks who get massive tax breaks and take advantage of huge tax loopholes. When GE pays a ZERO percent effective tax rate, it doesn't matter if you double or triple their income via tax breaks. They will still pay ZERO percent taxes, and will never refill the US Treasury.

We are falling off the back side of the Laffer Curve, and tax reductions have failed to increase tax revenues. Further tax cuts will push us further to the right, down the back side of the bell curve. We need to return to the successful tax rates of the past, and move back left on the bell curve, and return to the middle of the Laffer Curve.
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      07-29-2011, 11:49 AM   #383
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Oh boy. I see you are back to just mindlessly regurgitating PaulTard talking points. It was nice having a rational conversation there with you for a day.

If you want to read bumper stickers to us, go stand in traffic.


PS -- you said "tax hikes wont solve anything right now". Letting the Bush tax cuts expire will put 5.3 TRILLION towards the deficit over the next 10 years (based upon CBO numbers). That solves 5 times more the problem than Boner's tiny little less than 1 Trillion spending cut over the next 10 years.




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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
And you seem to always miss the big elephant in the room...nothing good will happen economically over the long run unless you decrease the SIZE of government!...tax cuts or tax hikes wont make a huge difference over short run(it will over long run if we lower tax rates for all)...the govt needs to downsize and quit going into wars we dont need and stop people from being dependent on them for food and shelter....that is what most wont talk about....debt ceiling this and that is almost trivial...govt needs to get smaller and quit spending money it doesnt have, cause if they dont, we the small guys will pay for their irresponsible behavior in the way of inflation, a hidden tax for all.

Now that is the big picture!...you keep focusing on the small stuff and trying to argue away your points but in the end, we have a incompetent govt who refuses to stop spending money...if your teenager has a spending problem buying shoes and clothes, do you deal with the problem and make some unpleasant choices hence suffer in the shortrun, or do you make the tough choices that will hurt initially but in the long run will help??...well its as simple as that.

So my answer is this, tax cuts or tax hikes wont solve anything right now, but over the long run, tax cuts will be better for our economy assuming the govt can stop its crazy spending spree(which they prob cant).


And why is our tax rate continually going up an illusion because of high tariff rates of the past?...who said just because we get rid of tariff we had to jack the tax rates so high?..its because govt keeps getting bigger and bigger and we keep giving aid to countries despite us being the poorest country in the world if you look at our debt and obligations...we have dept's for everything imagineable...our forefathers were very very wise...they wanted small govt cause they inherently knew when big govt gets going, there will be fraud, ineffeciencies and clandestine motives.

The right the bear arms was enacted not only to defend ourselves from foreign invaders but more importantly, to make sure we keep the Fed govt in line.
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      07-29-2011, 12:01 PM   #384
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If you are discussing economics all of the terms I have used are covered in a prerequisite International Trade and Macroeconomics class, this is as basic as it can get and still clearly and concisely making an accurate point.

First off, if you don't understand capital vs. labor intensive industries and comparative advantage, you have absolutely no business trying to debate international economics. They are very basic concepts crucial to making your points clear, because without them, everything can mold together. From your explanations below, you don't.

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"capital intensive goods" == The stuff that Wall Street, Hedge Fund Managers, traders, bankers, CFO's, and top corporate management do. When you talk about jobs, these are the folks that do these jobs.
Wrong. You are talking about Portfolio Capital. This is important in International Monetary and Financial Economics, but effectively irrelevant in International trade.

Capital-intensive industries use a large portion of capital to buy expensive machines, compared to their labor costs. With the added expense of machinery, there was greater financial risk. This makes new capital-intensive factories with high tech machinery a small share of the marketplace, even though they raise productivity and output. Some businesses commonly thought to be capital-intensive are railways, airlines, oil production and refining, telecommunications, mining, chemical plants, electric power plants, etc. Note these industries are the backbones of the American economy. You also seem to have forgotten that a service economy will always be more productive than a manufacturing economy because services are more profitable than manufacturing.


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"labor intensive goods" == Manufacturing jobs.
Again you are incorrect on your understanding of labor intensive goods. A labor intensive good,process, or industry requires a large amount of labor to produce its goods or services.

Labor intensive industries include restaurants, hotels, agriculture and mining. Advances in technology and worker productivity have moved some industries away from labor-intensive status, but many still remain.

Labor costs are considered variable, while capital costs are considered fixed. This gives labor-intensive industries an advantage in controlling expenses during market downturns by controlling the size of the employee base. Disadvantages include limited economies of scale (you can't pay workers less by hiring more of them), and susceptibility to wage forces within the labor market.

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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post

In simple terms for this forum, you are claiming that it is perfectly fine that we are emptying major cities (like Detroit) and shipping all these manufacturing jobs overseas, because the small number of people employed in "capital intensive goods" are now raking in TONS more money than ever before. Profits are bigger than ever for the top 5%, so that makes up for the 25% of the rest of the US who are now either unemployed or under-employed in shitty part time jobs because their old job was shipped overseas.
Because your understanding of Capital and Labor intensivity is incorrect, this statement is fatally flawed.

I am claiming that it is perfectly fine to empty a large city like Detroit, because the American auto industry is a comparative disadvantage industry and should be downsized. Please note, I did NOT say that it should be eliminated, but it should be downsized, and through

Have you ever considered why these jobs are being shipped overseas? As the Chinese and Indian economies have grown, for example, their labor force is cheaper to employ than ours for a given level of output of equal quality and quantity. You should also notice that American companies do not manufacture capital intensive goods, in India and China, because their comparative advantage is in the production of labor intensive goods.

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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post

In simple terms, you are saying "heck, just do the math, we are doing fine as a country on average." If you take the massive profits of the small number of folks on the top, and AVERAGE them with all the decimated incomes of the folks who used to work in Manufacturing, it all balances out. We're even-Steven.
That is not at all what I am saying. I don't know how you figured that. My argument had nothing to do with averaging anything. Capital Labor ratio has nothing to do with wages, and is a production metric.

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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post

Thank you for explaining why the growing wealth gap isn't just because people are lazy, it's because the folks in charge have KNOWINGLY structured a system that takes money from people losing jobs, and transfers it into their own pockets. It's a rigged system DESIGNED to do exactly what it has done: Strip jobs from the working and middle class so that the wealthy few in the "capital intensive goods" sector can reap massive profits.
What I explained has nothing to do with explaining the wealth gap. The system isn't designed to take money from people losing jobs. The system is designed to make the national economy optimally efficient. The 'stripping' of jobs from the working and middle class is largely a function of outsourcing because foreign workers are, as I said earlier cheaper to employ than ours for a given level of output of equal quality and quantity, and is also focused in industries in which our labor force has a comparative disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post

So now that everyone knows exactly what you were talking about in simple terms, let's loop back around and take a look at the tax impact.

Your theory is that the money drained from the US Treasury and used to get rid of US jobs and send them overseas will be replaced by the taxes paid by the massive profits made by folks in the "capital intensive goods" sector. Sounds good in theory. But then you start looking at it in reality, and realize that these Wall Street folks, Hedge Fund Managers, traders, bankers, CFO's, and top corporate management have been given HUGE tax breaks, and are taking advantage of MASSIVE tax loopholes. These folks use everything from 15% capital gains taxes, to renouncing their US citizenship to avoid paying taxes. And the Republicans ENCOURAGE and ASSIST them in avoiding taxes, using the excuse that these folks are the "Job Creators", so they certainly can't be taxed. You can't tax the "Job Creators", right? Who will create jobs in China and India if we tax these guys, right? Heck, you can't run a country just taxing the rich, or you will run out of rich people to tax!
No, that is exactly what I was not saying, but thank you for putting words in my mouth. My argument was apolitical, and would be no more or less correct if taxes were 0 or 100%, if Democrats or Republicans were in office, if the Zombie Apocalypse has or has not occured, or even if Tupac is still alive.
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      07-29-2011, 12:06 PM   #385
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john Boner's great idea:

"Hey, let's repeat all the last few months of bickering, fighting, market volatility, and business uncertainty --- But let's do it right in the middle of the all-important Christmas shopping season!!"

Is there ANY explanation for this timing, other than it being an obvious attempt to damage the economy to make Obama look bad?

Anyone?
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      07-29-2011, 12:12 PM   #386
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God I would pay anything to have you say to Ron Pauls face the inane disrespectful crap you spew on here...he would beetch slap you down so fast....

I could give a crap about Boehner and his talking points...I dont support Obama or Boehner or play these political games...once again you know just enough to be dangerous...think about it, what would happen if we "let" the Bush tax cuts expire...higher tax rates would put us into a severe recession...tax revenues would ultimately go down over long run...people would have no reason to invest in our economy and small businesses, the backbone of society, would crumble and unemployment would be extremely high.

So what would happen then?...we would then get QE 3 and 4, 5...for the supposed 5T we would cut, we would add 15T in QE 3-5, another 500B in bailouts and etc...dont you get it, for every action there is a reaction...unless you get the "big picture", you will never understand how its all interconnected.

What you seem to do is regurgitate liberal based news stories that only speak half the truth and give a partial story and you accept it as gospel...but try to think independently and logically for once.

IMHO, if you are a hardcore reub or democrat and you agree with 95% of the party line, then you are a sheep just following orders...means you are not thinking for yourself...consider this, what are the odds you would agree with 90%+ of a certain ideology unless you were agreeing with them just to agree and not thinking for yourself.

If you find yourself being disgusted by either the repub or liberal side, well then "they" have won, as they have manipulated you into fighting one another while the real people in charge are walking off with the goods...its quite clever really...While I lean Libertarian, I dont really follow all of their beliefs because this movt is quite wide in their thinking....I have no master to answer to.

We would all help ourselves and our country if we learned how to think independently and for ourselves ...without stupid biases and manipulations.

When you say things like, " go read bumper stickers blah blah blah", you are discrediting yourself by taking the easy way out...you and I both know many of the things I have said to you is the truth and makes sense, but I know you cant admit to this cause Obama gave you the hush hush secret handshake...(smiley means joke okkkaaayyyy)...I kid cause I am comfortable in my beliefs and my understanding of whats going down.

I really hope you remember all these conversations we are having 3-5 yrs from now, cause I think it will all make sense alot more at a later time.




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Oh boy. I see you are back to just mindlessly regurgitating PaulTard talking points. It was nice having a rational conversation there with you for a day.

If you want to read bumper stickers to us, go stand in traffic.


PS -- you said "tax hikes wont solve anything right now". Letting the Bush tax cuts expire will put 5.3 TRILLION towards the deficit over the next 10 years (based upon CBO numbers). That solves 5 times more the problem than Boner's tiny little less than 1 Trillion spending cut over the next 10 years.
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      07-29-2011, 12:19 PM   #387
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Wrong. You are talking about Portfolio Capital....

Capital-intensive industries use a large portion of capital to buy expensive machines, compared to their labor costs. With the added expense of machinery, there was greater financial risk. This makes new capital-intensive factories with high tech machinery a small share of the marketplace, even though they raise productivity and output. Some businesses commonly thought to be capital-intensive are railways, airlines, oil production and refining, telecommunications, mining, chemical plants, electric power plants, etc. Note these industries are the backbones of the American economy. You also seem to have forgotten that a service economy will always be more productive than a manufacturing economy because services are more profitable than manufacturing.
I apologize for not looking up the terms and confusing "Portfolio Capital" with "Capital Intensive". My bad.

But nearly all the items you listed as "Capitol Intensive" have nearly all been outsourced overseas. China is building high speed railways, we aren't. China is building high-tech manufacturing plants, we aren't. Same for chemical plants, nuclear power plants, Computer Software development, Ford's car manufacturing that went to India in the story I posted, etc.

Using your definition in your last post, your original argument now doesn't make ANY sense at all. The "Capitol Intensive" jobs have been moved overseas now too. Your argument would only have been valid a few decades ago.

Your original post only made slight sense with the use of "Portfolio Capital", because the financial sector is now the big dog of what we still do here in the US.


I'll take it all back, and just say that your understanding of where "Capitol Intensive" jobs are being done is false. They have been off-shored and out-sourced just like the "Labor Intensive" jobs.

Last edited by 11Series; 07-29-2011 at 12:27 PM.
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      07-29-2011, 12:32 PM   #388
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I'll take it all back, and just say that your understanding of where "Capitol Intensive" jobs are being done is false. They have been off-shored and out-sourced just like the "Labor Intensive" jobs.
This still shows that you don't understand the difference between Capital and Labor Intensive and your statement is still incorrect.

The industries I listed have had their products outsourced, but generally speaking the manufacture of their products has not. Even if the manufacturing has been outsourced, the company that developed the manufacturing process and technology still own it, and license it to Chinese/Indian companies for production. Don't believe me? Apple owns the intellectual property behind the iPhone, but make all of them in a factory they do not own or operate. Thus, the US takes advantage of its comparative advantage (capital intensive good in the development of computing technology) and the Chinese take advantage of their comparative advantage (labor intensive good in semi-skilled manufacturing)

The US makes the vast majority of the world's Oilfield/Refining equipment. The US still makes a significant portion of global airliners. The US still makes or licenses a large number of railroad technologies. The US still makes the majority of the world's nuclear reactors....
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      07-29-2011, 12:43 PM   #389
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Welcome back Old mact3333, fecalphilicaticstuphoria and smiley faces in full glory.

I'd love to swap insults again, but there are actual real issues at play, and I'm not interested in your ban-baiting.

You can go back to sharing the "secret handshake" with AngelinIsRich on the Fap thread.


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God I would pay anything to have you say to Ron Pauls face the inane disrespectful crap you spew on here...he would beetch slap you down so fast....

I could give a crap about Boehner and his talking points...I dont support Obama or Boehner or play these political games...once again you know just enough to be dangerous...think about it, what would happen if we "let" the Bush tax cuts expire...higher tax rates would put us into a severe recession...tax revenues would ultimately go down over long run...people would have no reason to invest in our economy and small businesses, the backbone of society, would crumble and unemployment would be extremely high.

So what would happen then?...we would then get QE 3 and 4, 5...for the supposed 5T we would cut, we would add 15T in QE 3-5, another 500B in bailouts and etc...dont you get it, for every action there is a reaction...unless you get the "big picture", you will never understand how its all interconnected.

What you seem to do is regurgitate liberal based news stories that only speak half the truth and give a partial story and you accept it as gospel...but try to think independently and logically for once.

IMHO, if you are a hardcore reub or democrat and you agree with 95% of the party line, then you are a sheep just following orders...means you are not thinking for yourself...consider this, what are the odds you would agree with 90%+ of a certain ideology unless you were agreeing with them just to agree and not thinking for yourself.

If you find yourself being disgusted by either the repub or liberal side, well then "they" have won, as they have manipulated you into fighting one another while the real people in charge are walking off with the goods...its quite clever really...While I lean Libertarian, I dont really follow all of their beliefs because this movt is quite wide in their thinking....I have no master to answer to.

We would all help ourselves and our country if we learned how to think independently and for ourselves ...without stupid biases and manipulations.

When you say things like, " go read bumper stickers blah blah blah", you are discrediting yourself by taking the easy way out...you and I both know many of the things I have said to you is the truth and makes sense, but I know you cant admit to this cause Obama gave you the hush hush secret handshake...(smiley means joke okkkaaayyyy)...I kid cause I am comfortable in my beliefs and my understanding of whats going down.

I really hope you remember all these conversations we are having 3-5 yrs from now, cause I think it will all make sense alot more at a later time.
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      07-29-2011, 12:52 PM   #390
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yes the truth hurts huh???....no need to trade insults...I can trade jabs without the punchline thank you very much...here it comes......at the end of the day, you still havent grasped economics, wallstreet, finance.....

There was a time where I would watch the Bill Maher show and laugh my ass off...his wit, charm , humor were truly funny...now he sounds ludicrous...but I still watch cause I agree with him about religion....


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Welcome back Old mact3333, fecalphilicaticstuphoria and smiley faces in full glory.

I'd love to swap insults again, but there are actual real issues at play, and I'm not interested in your ban-baiting.

You can go back to sharing the "secret handshake" with AngelinIsRich on the Fap thread.
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      07-29-2011, 01:17 PM   #391
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The industries I listed have had their products outsourced, but generally speaking the manufacture of their products has not. Even if the manufacturing has been outsourced, the company that developed the manufacturing process and technology still own it, and license it to Chinese/Indian companies for production. Don't believe me? Apple owns the intellectual property behind the iPhone, but make all of them in a factory they do not own or operate. Thus, the US takes advantage of its comparative advantage (capital intensive good in the development of computing technology) and the Chinese take advantage of their comparative advantage (labor intensive good in semi-skilled manufacturing)

The US makes the vast majority of the world's Oilfield/Refining equipment. The US still makes a significant portion of global airliners. The US still makes or licenses a large number of railroad technologies. The US still makes the majority of the world's nuclear reactors....
No. The majority have had their manufacturing outsourced already, or manufacturing is already in transition to being moved overseas. Our airplanes are increasingly built with imported parts from other countries, same with oilfield/refining equipment. For example, remember the Deepwater Horrizon? Responsible for the Gulf oil spill, and the associated massive job losses? Built in 2001 in South Korea by Hyundai Heavy Industries. The small number of US jobs still kept in the US is the exception that PROVES the rule.


The issue is US WORKERS. JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS!!!!


All of your talk about licensing revenue doesn't change where the manufacturing jobs are going. License revenue made on the backs of foreign labor that goes straight into the pockets of the top 5% doesn't do a damn thing for US WORKERS.

With respect to License Revenue, I hereby REINSTATE everything I said about "Portfolio Capital" in my first response. Saying how awesome it is that rich people make tons of cash off of foreign workers doesn't help US WORKERS a single bit. And it doesn't fill the US Treasury either.
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      07-29-2011, 01:38 PM   #392
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No. The majority have had their manufacturing outsourced already, or manufacturing is already in transition to being moved overseas. Our airplanes are increasingly built with imported parts from other countries, same with oilfield/refining equipment. The small number of US jobs still kept in the US is the exception that PROVES the rule.


The issue is US WORKERS. JOBS JOBS JOBS JOBS!!!!


All of your talk about licensing revenue doesn't change where the manufacturing jobs are going. License revenue made on the backs of foreign labor that goes straight into the pockets of the top 5% doesn't do a damn thing for US WORKERS.

With respect to License Revenue, I hereby REINSTATE everything I said about "Portfolio Capital" in my first response. Saying how awesome it is that rich people make tons of cash off of foreign workers doesn't help US WORKERS a single bit. And it doesn't fill the US Treasury either.
You're still missing the point, and I realize I'm not going to convince you that the reason this outsourcing happens is actually a net positive.

Why should any employer hire domestic workers who are more expensive and than foreign ones? The domestic workers are at a comparative disadvantage to foreign ones! Thats why their jobs are going overseas. It's simple economics and has nothing to do with screwing the 'little' guy. By maximizing each country's comparative advantage, EACH COUNTRY BENEFITS! You may not like that we may have lost manufacturing jobs in comparative disadvantage industries, but the national economy is better off as a whole.

You don't believe me about this, which is fine, but the best example to solidify my point is 50 years ago, South Korea and India had the same GDP per Capita AND Aggregate GDP. By maximizing their comparative advantage, South Korea is now a global heavy manufacturing (Capital Intensive Goods, ships, electronics, etc) power. Another example: Singapore is what it is today through maximizing it's comparative advantages.

As an aside, as an employer, if I was in the position to hire a person and I had to choose between a domestic worker or a foreign worker who is cheaper to employ than a domestic worker and still maintain the same level of quality that I, as the employer, require, I would hire the foreign worker in a heartbeat and without hesitation.
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      07-29-2011, 02:19 PM   #393
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The problem is the government has gotten too large to function. This has been caused by both republicans and democrats, my beef with obama is that he's grown it at too fast a rate. Cut government and all the red tape and bureaucracies and you'll see companies hiring again in America and the economy will pick up.
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      07-29-2011, 02:30 PM   #394
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You're still missing the point, and I realize I'm not going to convince you that the reason this outsourcing happens is actually a net positive.

Why should any employer hire domestic workers who are more expensive and than foreign ones? The domestic workers are at a comparative disadvantage to foreign ones! Thats why their jobs are going overseas. It's simple economics and has nothing to do with screwing the 'little' guy. By maximizing each country's comparative advantage, EACH COUNTRY BENEFITS! You may not like that we may have lost manufacturing jobs in comparative disadvantage industries, but the national economy is better off as a whole.

You don't believe me about this, which is fine, but the best example to solidify my point is 50 years ago, South Korea and India had the same GDP per Capita AND Aggregate GDP. By maximizing their comparative advantage, South Korea is now a global heavy manufacturing (Capital Intensive Goods, ships, electronics, etc) power. Another example: Singapore is what it is today through maximizing it's comparative advantages.

As an aside, as an employer, if I was in the position to hire a person and I had to choose between a domestic worker or a foreign worker who is cheaper to employ than a domestic worker and still maintain the same level of quality that I, as the employer, require, I would hire the foreign worker in a heartbeat and without hesitation.
Ditto, you really know your economic. GDP=C+I+G+(X-M). Only those who know economic would understand what you're talking about. Who knows if the U.S would get rid of the union then some of the jobs would come back. But again, who knows, and that is the beauty of economics. Just a bunch of predictions and forecasts.
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      07-29-2011, 03:08 PM   #395
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The republicans in the house can pass the boehner bill now that it's got the balanced budget amendment which is great. Unfortunately, Reid and Obama dislike it because this debt issue will become a factor in the election cycle when they have to pass another plan. I'm betting against the markets at the moment as nothings getting done.
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      07-29-2011, 03:20 PM   #396
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How funny, you take the time to show the calculation used to get the GDP but leave out the most important aspect of it...the CPI...CPI and GDP are inversely related and when CPI is artificially lowered as it is now since energy and food are excluded, it artificially raises the GDP...the GDP was reported earlier today a paltry 1.3%, which really means were are in reality already negative...most inherently understand we are already in a double dip recession, but we will continue to let the govt and media tell us otherwise....

These posts are quite funny.


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Ditto, you really know your economic. GDP=C+I+G+(X-M). Only those who know economic would understand what you're talking about. Who knows if the U.S would get rid of the union then some of the jobs would come back. But again, who knows, and that is the beauty of economics. Just a bunch of predictions and forecasts.
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