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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > ESS is considering making a SC kit for the N52!



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      08-01-2012, 05:18 PM   #287
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for $5k, I'm in.
but what about saving for your sex change?
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      08-01-2012, 05:23 PM   #288
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you got yours done for a measly $500... didn't realize it was gonna be much more.
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      08-01-2012, 05:29 PM   #289
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thats cuz my wife already removed the important part
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      08-01-2012, 05:32 PM   #290
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was there really much to remove in the first place?
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      08-01-2012, 06:07 PM   #291
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don't act like you don't know.


go make a diptych about it...
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      08-01-2012, 06:11 PM   #292
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I thought the theme wasn't lose-lose.
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      08-01-2012, 07:26 PM   #293
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      08-01-2012, 07:33 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Patmos330 View Post
Well its been a year and 5 days. I think we got our answer from this shop. Oh well, their loss.
R&D for this would cost the profit of at least the first 300 kits produced. If they decided not to, that just means that out of the 200 persons that said they would do it, they know that only 40 will eventually do it.

For a company like MMW, that could mean getting known to the whole world; They got nothing to lose (but the actually did!). But ESS doesnt need that. Business is cruising.

Probably not worth the risk.
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      08-01-2012, 09:01 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximusJ View Post
R&D for this would cost the profit of at least the first 300 kits produced. If they decided not to, that just means that out of the 200 persons that said they would do it, they know that only 40 will eventually do it.

For a company like MMW, that could mean getting known to the whole world; They got nothing to lose (but the actually did!). But ESS doesnt need that. Business is cruising.

Probably not worth the risk.
Its times like now I wish I was more educated in the costs of a project like this for a business. I just cant fathom it taking 300 sales to turn a profit on a kit like this. You seem to know a bit more than I do, can you elaborate on the individual costs that led you to your numbers?
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      08-01-2012, 09:12 PM   #296
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R&D for this would cost the profit of at least the first 300 kits produced. If they decided not to, that just means that out of the 200 persons that said they would do it, they know that only 40 will eventually do it.

For a company like MMW, that could mean getting known to the whole world; They got nothing to lose (but the actually did!). But ESS doesnt need that. Business is cruising.

Probably not worth the risk.
I don't think thats necessarily true. The N52 is very similar to the M54 3.0l (which they have s/c kits for already) so fitting it inside the engine bay sounds like it would be the hardest part... not $1.5 million worth of R&D in that.

Maybe $20-30k tops which they make back in the profits of the first dozen unit sales.
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      08-02-2012, 08:23 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by UdubBadger View Post
I don't think thats necessarily true. The N52 is very similar to the M54 3.0l (which they have s/c kits for already) so fitting it inside the engine bay sounds like it would be the hardest part... not $1.5 million worth of R&D in that.

Maybe $20-30k tops which they make back in the profits of the first dozen unit sales.
I totally agree. I said the profit of 300 kits; not the actual price If they outsource the right parts, they might get a grand profit on a 5k kit. 1500 if they decide to produce pipings and fittings themselves but as far as I remember, they outsource everything.

But you forget the most important part. Software. There is where they would need to work on the most. (According to those who already did it). Is it really true or they just want some shout outs for their hard work; that I cant tell; but both shops that actually developped a SC kit for the N52 agreed on that point: FI software for the N52 is a pain since they go from the OEM software and add the FI settings and add the extra features.

And the M54 is as similar to the N52 as it is a completely different engine. Similar on some points, different on others. Is it good or bad for the shared application? That, I cant tell; I dont know the M54 well enough to make that statement.

Last edited by MaximusJ; 08-02-2012 at 08:29 AM.
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      08-02-2012, 08:40 AM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximusJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by UdubBadger View Post
I don't think thats necessarily true. The N52 is very similar to the M54 3.0l (which they have s/c kits for already) so fitting it inside the engine bay sounds like it would be the hardest part... not $1.5 million worth of R&D in that.

Maybe $20-30k tops which they make back in the profits of the first dozen unit sales.
I totally agree. I said the profit of 300 kits; not the actual price If they outsource the right parts, they might get a grand profit on a 5k kit. 1500 if they decide to produce pipings and fittings themselves but as far as I remember, they outsource everything.

But you forget the most important part. Software. There is where they would need to work on the most. (According to those who already did it). Is it really true or they just want some shout outs for their hard work; that I cant tell; but both shops that actually developped a SC kit for the N52 agreed on that point: FI software for the N52 is a pain since they go from the OEM software and add the FI settings and add the extra features.

And the M54 is as similar to the N52 as it is a completely different engine. Similar on some points, different on others. Is it good or bad for the shared application? That, I cant tell; I dont know the M54 well enough to make that statement.
Two things:
1. Software is actually the easiest part. I work for a tuning company, we custom tune s/c applications all the time. If you know what you are doing its really a non issue. Again the engine being similar to the m54 in the way it works helps them because it's a similar mindset on how to make power on that platform.
2. Don't under estimate the power of pricing markup. I've seen these kits for the e46 on sale for $3500 before and if you think they'd sell them without making a profit you're wrong. At $5k a kit there is at least $2000 or more profit built in.
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      08-02-2012, 09:25 AM   #299
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Well if you're in the business, I'm not gonna argue anymore I'm just repeating what i've been told by a couple persons that are also in the business; but they were probably covering their own interests
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      08-02-2012, 10:00 AM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UdubBadger View Post
Two things:
1. Software is actually the easiest part. I work for a tuning company, we custom tune s/c applications all the time. If you know what you are doing its really a non issue. Again the engine being similar to the m54 in the way it works helps them because it's a similar mindset on how to make power on that platform.
2. Don't under estimate the power of pricing markup. I've seen these kits for the e46 on sale for $3500 before and if you think they'd sell them without making a profit you're wrong. At $5k a kit there is at least $2000 or more profit built in.
Software IS the hardest part on these engines. Most anyone here would be able to mock-up the hardware and mount it in our engine bays. If Gavin can do it....

Since you're a coding guru you need to contact all the supercharger companies because that's EXACTLY what's causing the issues with these kits and the main reason Gavin is running a piggyback system on the MMW kit. Most of the main stream supercharger manufacturers will not run a piggyback system since there are other issues that would cause concern with not being fully integrated to keep the engine safe.

The coding for these engines wants the car to go into limp home mode once boost is introduced. The N52 engine is different than the M54.
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      08-02-2012, 11:33 AM   #301
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IIRC when I looked closely at the manifolds of the N52 and M54 I think I remember that the N52 has the injectors that go into the head and the manifold unbolts leaving the injectors in place (like the stage 3 intake conversion). The M54 had the injectors mounted in the manifold. This is a big difference between the two. I almost wanted to get an ESS M54 kit and see just how close it would be to bolt on to the N52. So it needs a new intake manifold mold for the N52. That is doable.

Here is a different kit for an 4.0L inline 6-

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      08-02-2012, 11:35 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
Software IS the hardest part on these engines. Most anyone here would be able to mock-up the hardware and mount it in our engine bays. If Gavin can do it....

Since you're a coding guru you need to contact all the supercharger companies because that's EXACTLY what's causing the issues with these kits and the main reason Gavin is running a piggyback system on the MMW kit. Most of the main stream supercharger manufacturers will not run a piggyback system since there are other issues that would cause concern with not being fully integrated to keep the engine safe.

The coding for these engines wants the car to go into limp home mode once boost is introduced. The N52 engine is different than the M54.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying its like point, click, done. I am simply saying its not $1.5 million dollars of research "hard" because nobody has ever made an SC system on anything similar. The tuning aspect for a company who specializes in tunes on BMW's isn't impossible though. A few months of working it out could easily produce the proper application for a kit. I didn't say I was a coding guru. I said I work for a company that does a lot of S/C tuning - Underground Racing, AA and several independent racing teams have all had us work on their systems. ESS is fully capable of putting in a few months of dedicated work and coming out with something that is reasonably priced and reliable. The comparison to the M54 is purely saying the BMW N/A has been fitted and tuned for SC applications previously. Yes, they are different engines and yes the ECU on an N52 is more complex and harder to break coding. However, what I am saying is the shear skeleton of how to go about making the kit is there because the M54 and N52 engines are SIMILAR in the way they work... obviously modifications here and there will be needed but in theory it will work very similar to how it works on the M54. It's not like they are saying we've made kits for the M54 and now we have to try and make a kit for the S82 V10.
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      08-02-2012, 11:58 AM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UdubBadger View Post
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying its like point, click, done. I am simply saying its not $1.5 million dollars of research "hard" because nobody has ever made an SC system on anything similar. The tuning aspect for a company who specializes in tunes on BMW's isn't impossible though. A few months of working it out could easily produce the proper application for a kit. I didn't say I was a coding guru. I said I work for a company that does a lot of S/C tuning - Underground Racing, AA and several independent racing teams have all had us work on their systems. ESS is fully capable of putting in a few months of dedicated work and coming out with something that is reasonably priced and reliable. The comparison to the M54 is purely saying the BMW N/A has been fitted and tuned for SC applications previously. Yes, they are different engines and yes the ECU on an N52 is more complex and harder to break coding. However, what I am saying is the shear skeleton of how to go about making the kit is there because the M54 and N52 engines are SIMILAR in the way they work... obviously modifications here and there will be needed but in theory it will work very similar to how it works on the M54. It's not like they are saying we've made kits for the M54 and now we have to try and make a kit for the S82 V10.
Got it.

I do know for a fact though that coding is the hang-up for this kit. All that you say definitely makes sense, but I guess it's up to the companies to invest the time and effort to getting it to work.

I remember when the GT-R came out. Everyone said there's no way anyone will be able to break the code and do anything more with these engines. Boy were they wrong!!!
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      08-02-2012, 12:01 PM   #304
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Got it.

I do know for a fact though that coding is the hang-up for this kit. All that you say definitely makes sense, but I guess it's up to the companies to invest the time and effort to getting it to work.

I remember when the GT-R came out. Everyone said there's no way anyone will be able to break the code and do anything more with these engines. Boy were they wrong!!!
They usually are. And to be honest I would think ESS or anyone might try to look at the software from the N54 to help find solutions with handling the power issues. We've been putting 330i software on 325i's and getting a lot of power. Could translate to how stuff is handled here. I know they are different engines but its more about concept that actual data swapping.
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      08-02-2012, 11:01 PM   #305
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So, is there an update as to when this may be available?
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      08-03-2012, 12:51 AM   #306
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From ESS? Prolly never. From AA or Gavin, prolly a long time still. 2013 is my guess
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      08-03-2012, 10:19 AM   #307
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Don't count VF out.
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      08-03-2012, 12:12 PM   #308
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Quote:
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So, is there an update as to when this may be available?
ESS has already said they are NOT going to produce this kit.

Major opportunity for other manufacturers here.
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