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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in / Oil & Fluids / Servicing / Warranty > And @ 149,300 miles ... WATER PUMP



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      07-22-2011, 09:13 AM   #23
Bcube
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENINTY View Post
So not to drag this on much longer, but the pump arrived yesterday. A PLASTIC impeller? Really, I mean really, a suggested retail price of almost $500 and BMW couldn't spec-out a metal impeller, say a nice cast aluminum, or better yet, stainless steel impeller. From what little you can see and feel of it it is not even ABS plastic. Mind you I have no issue with using plastic in automobile parts, but for $400 ($396 from Tischer) shouldn't the impeller on such a critical part on the car that if it fails under certain circumstances and with no notice can lead to catastrophic engine damage.

And the motor shaft moves in and out like some cheap model toy motor.

BMW is not winning in my book.

My car has a manual transmission BTW.

I take it that your original has a metal impeller? (Haven't had the privilege of changing mine out yet)
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      07-22-2011, 01:59 PM   #24
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My e36 came with a metal impeller, but now BMW changed to a composite. Apparently the composite doesn't grenade to bits like the earlier plastic ones did. I've had one in my e36 for a couple years...so far so good. Ad it was only like $80. $500 is criminal.
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      07-22-2011, 04:16 PM   #25
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I think BMW had no choice but to use an off-block water pump with N52. Just don't see how the cavity and passages of a mechanical pump can be cast into the magnesium block. Now the pump is off the block it's hard to drive it with a belt. Why not make it electrical... all the fancy things an electrical pump can do... And the company must stay on the bleeding edge of technology.

Not that I'm defending BMW's Ruby Goldberg approach to engineering.... I'll be perfectly happy with an aluminum block with a mechanical pump and a dipstick. The MPG meter is quite useless and having no temperature gauge is a very bad design indeed. While sudden electrical failures are still not covered, software should be designed to warn impending problems when water pump start throwing codes.

A typical BMW owner such as the 34-year old young female executive concentrating on her career probably lease her car because she does not want to pay attention to the car. BMW has become a company that try to please their lease customers at the expense of those who actually own their cars.
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      07-22-2011, 08:02 PM   #26
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I was also stranded on the highway last Friday ...New ts and wp. Wasn't too worried after I saw all these posts on pretty much the exact same scenario. Two dings -> shoulder->coolant all over your engine

It did cost a lot to fix but I'm glad its all over now
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      07-22-2011, 08:36 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maf330xi View Post
I was also stranded on the highway last Friday ...New ts and wp. Wasn't too worried after I saw all these posts on pretty much the exact same scenario. Two dings -> shoulder->coolant all over your engine

It did cost a lot to fix but I'm glad its all over now
You seem to be perfectly fine with the scenario unlike the OP. Sorry but I have to agree that it's pretty unacceptable for a car like this with so much "brains" not to be able to warn you ahead of time that a failure is coming. Just ridiculous. Hell, even my 95 stang had a temp gauge so I had a better idea what was going on. You all are making me paranoid about my 06 325 even though it's only got 50k on it. Good thing it's still under CPO for a few more months.
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      07-22-2011, 09:22 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcube View Post
I take it that your original has a metal impeller? (Haven't had the privilege of changing mine out yet)
Don't know yet. I plan on a complete disection of the pump.
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      07-22-2011, 09:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maf330xi View Post
I was also stranded on the highway last Friday ...New ts and wp. Wasn't too worried after I saw all these posts on pretty much the exact same scenario. Two dings -> shoulder->coolant all over your engine

It did cost a lot to fix but I'm glad its all over now
How many miles on your 330xi, and have you done a coolant change before?
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      07-22-2011, 10:26 PM   #30
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ENINTY, you ran the short test with your BT to find the water pump faults?
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      07-23-2011, 06:14 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Glim View Post
ENINTY, you ran the short test with your BT to find the water pump faults?
Yeah, I ran the short test on all modules when I did my last oil change on May 14 and 143,400 miles. That scan showed 3 instances of slow RPM at the water pump. The first event was somewhere around 138,000 miles. A few weeks later on 6/11 at 145,930 I removed and cleaned the VANOS solenoids and found water pump trouble codes again; although if I remember correctly they were not the same codes as before (there are 4 codes for the WP).

My shop computer has all the scan data in it so when I go do the pump today I get all the particulars of the code events and post them here as a follow up and I'll take apart the old pump and try to diagnose what failed in it.

This is what my issue is. Even as a owner who is a pretty serious gearhead, I only discovered the failing pump when I did the oil change and the pump first acted abnormal almost 5,000 miles before I scanned the car at 145K. This is part of the reason I didn't immediately replace the pump. I thought at that time it might have been a just a software glitch, so I was keeping an eye on it. So all in all the pump started failing at 138,000 and finally gave up the ghost 10,000 miles later (for some people that's a whole year of driving; for me it's about 3 months).

10,000 miles is almost a full OCI cycle, so if a tech were scanning the car during oil changes the pump could easily fail in between oil change maintenance. And think about a typical owner. He goes in for an oil change, the tech discovers the WP codes, the SA comes out and says "We scanned your car and found trouble codes for the water pump. We think it is going to fail and suggest you should replace it now rather than risk a breakdown. The price will be $1,000 parts and labor." The owner's immediate thought would be, "Yeah, right, another Stealer trying to milk me for some extra money." he'd not get it done, only later to find himself on the side of the road with a warped cylinderhead...
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      07-23-2011, 06:52 AM   #32
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Quote:
Yeah, I ran the short test on all modules when I did my last oil change on May 14 and 143,400 miles. That scan showed 3 instances of slow RPM at the water pump. The first event was somewhere around 138,000 miles. A few weeks later on 6/11 at 145,930 I removed and cleaned the VANOS solenoids and found water pump trouble codes again; although if I remember correctly they were not the same codes as before (there are 4 codes for the WP).


I thought that you had zero warning. But admittedly, what you got was way more than enough notice. I hope that if happens to me, my Scangauge will capture those codes (?) in advance like you had.
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      07-23-2011, 06:57 AM   #33
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I wonder if the peake tool will catch it? Just ordered one, two days ago. Couldn't justify the BT scan tool price. (I will be using it for basic diagnosis and I am not a tuner/mod guy.)
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If no codes are being thrown use Chevron Techron fuel injector cleaner (concentrate). It solves rpm fluctuating upon cold start-up. Also, for most BMW problems start off by scanning your car with the Peake Research Tool. It contains the actual BMW codes. If you want to register a newly installed battery for free (just buy a $10 cable) and google/download BMWLogger
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      07-23-2011, 07:13 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post


I thought that you had zero warning. But admittedly, what you got was way more than enough notice. I hope that if happens to me, my Scangauge will capture those codes (?) in advance like you had.
You haven't read the entire post. I amitted that the breakdown was my fault because I knew the pump us suspect based on age, mileage, and the fault codes. But knowng the pump is $500, I wanted to be sure. To the regular owner, who doesn't even know what a scan tool is, they will have the water pump fail without warning (see the two other posts on overhated 325's as an example).

I doubt your Scangauge will see the codes unless it reads BMW-specific codes.

You've been warned, now go sit in the corner.
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      07-23-2011, 07:47 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENINTY View Post
You haven't read the entire post. I amitted that the breakdown was my fault because I knew the pump us suspect based on age, mileage, and the fault codes. But knowng the pump is $500, I wanted to be sure. To the regular owner, who doesn't even know what a scan tool is, they will have the water pump fail without warning (see the two other posts on overhated 325's as an example).

I doubt your Scangauge will see the codes unless it reads BMW-specific codes.

You've been warned, now go sit in the corner.
Lol! What is that supposed to mean? (You can always dream.)

I did read that your car was 'talking to you', but didn't expect it to be so specific! Anyway, your 'overlook' will serve to others.
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      07-23-2011, 08:04 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Lol! What is that supposed to mean? (You can always dream.)

I did read that your car was 'talking to you', but didn't expect it to be so specific! Anyway, your 'overlook' will serve to others.
Not a big deal. The only thing it really cost me extra was $200. The tow bill was $200 and my insurance only covers $100 of it. I always thought my insurance covered the whole bill. I'll work that issue with my Agent.

But the tow truck driver had some great stories, so I'll call it a wash.
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      07-23-2011, 08:55 AM   #37
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I checked in my Bentley but found no reference to BMW FC related to WS(!)

On internet I found 2E81 in this thread;
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544813

Do you remember yours even if it was a few weeks?

As for my SG reading or not the BMW FC codes associated to EBD codes, I'll know for sure in a month because my oil level will be under; there is a code for that. I am sure somebody creative could emulate a fault condition by unplugging something.
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      07-23-2011, 07:53 PM   #38
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Okay, the new pump is in. Everything is back to normal. I've diseceted the pump. The plastic impeller is perfectly intact. The motor spins fine. I think the failure is due to the electronics over heating and not obeying the DME control messages. I tried to power the motor from a spare battery but putting power to the positive an negative leads didn't power it on. The connector has four wires: Power (red) Ground (brown) and two signal wires.

I'll try to post the trouble codes tomorrow. Basically it showed zero motor RPM and 170 deg F electronics temp.

Last edited by ENINTY; 07-24-2011 at 07:06 AM.
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      07-24-2011, 12:23 AM   #39
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If you only had a regular 2-3 ton jack and stands how difficult would this DIY be?
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      07-24-2011, 07:02 AM   #40
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Okay, so I can't post my BT scan pages because I saved them to my shop computer as a doc image file and E90 post doesn't accept that file format.

Anyway here's synopsis of what happened and what codes are involved.

There is a faut code 2E81"Electrical Cooling Pump:Speed Deviation" that has shown up several times as follows:

May 14, 2011 Scan: (I cleared these codes after the scan)
Note: The pump's max RPM is 250
138053 miles - speed deviation of 54 RPM
138153 miles - speed deviation of 45 RPM
143447 miles - speed deviation of 19 RPM

June 11, 2011 Scan: (I cleared these codes after the scan)
143452 miles - speed deviation of 56 RPM
143467 miles - speed deviation of 74 RPM
145927 miles - speed deviation of 51 RPM

July 23, 2011 Scan (This scan was to clear the codes before I replaced the pump)
145952 miles - speed deviation of 87 RPM
145987 miles - speed deviation of 59 RPM
149521 miles - water pump revolution of 0 RPM (the pump stopped car overheated)
- speed deviation of 250 RPM

A second code was present: 2E82 "Electrical Cooling Pump: Switch Off"
149521 miles - water pump temperature electronics 77 deg C (170 F)

So basically, if you get code 2E81, replace the pump soon.

I hope this information helps all of us understand the water pump better.
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      07-24-2011, 09:40 AM   #41
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How hard was it to change? DIY coming soon?
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      07-24-2011, 11:00 AM   #42
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How hard was it to change? DIY coming soon?
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347412
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      07-24-2011, 11:34 AM   #43
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Quote:
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So basically, if you get code 2E81, replace the pump soon.

I hope this information helps all of us understand the water pump better.
Thank you. You potentially saved many people's days with this info. Does the check engine light come on when the first 2E81 shows up? Or must we periodically check for this code using a BT scanner? Would an ordinary OBD II read this?
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      07-24-2011, 02:13 PM   #44
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How many miles on your 330xi, and have you done a coolant change before?
100k km. No coolant flush since I've owned it which was at 70k
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