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      04-18-2007, 09:01 PM   #1
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Thumbs down got ripped off by eyejammy

Well, it was my turn to get ripped off. There is always a first time.

As reference, read the first post in this thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54773

This offer looked very tempting. specially, the statement : “So there is more than 85% of tread remaining”

According to the specs from the general tire website, the tires new will have
10/32 tread depth.

This week, I got the tires and found that the tread remaining was nowhere close to what this guy said:
Front tire 1 = depth = 5/32 = 50% tread remaining
front tire 2 = depth = 5/32 = 50% tread remaining
rear tire 1 = depth = 3/32 = 30% tread remaining
rear tire 2 = depth = 2/32 = 20% tread remaining

So basically, the rears are useless and the fronts are 50% gone. That is NOT close to what the seller stated on his post.

Here are some pics of what I got:
This is one front tire. I did the tirerack measurement with a quarter.
I also measured it with a tread gauge and the reading was 5/32mm
Name:  front quarter measure.JPG
Views: 1009
Size:  81.3 KB

This is the other front tire:
Name:  front quarter_measure2.JPG
Views: 929
Size:  81.5 KB

This is one rear tire. the tread gauge indicated 2/32mm left. According to tire rack, 2/32 is an unsafe tire.
Name:  rear_penny_measure.JPG
Views: 1525
Size:  81.0 KB

The tirerack has the following statement:
According to most states' laws, tires are legally worn out when they have worn down to 2/32" of remaining tread depth. To help warn drivers that their tires have reached that point, tires sold in North America are required to have indicators molded into their tread design called "wear bars" which run across their tread pattern from their outside shoulder to inside shoulder. Wear bars are designed to visually connect the elements of the tire's tread pattern and warn drivers when their tires no longer meet minimum tread depth requirements.

This is a view of the wear bar on one of the rear tires. the tread is worn out to the point is level with the wear bar.
this tire is useless.
Name:  rear_cross2.JPG
Views: 961
Size:  82.6 KB

This is the other rear showing how bad the tread depth is.
Name:  rear_cross2_tire.JPG
Views: 897
Size:  90.6 KB

I emailed the seller, sent him pics, measurements, specs from General and asked him to take the tires back. He refuses and offers to refund $45.

I email again in a nice manner stating that $45 is not acceptable.

He responds offering $75.

Once again, I explain to him that based on what he stated on his original post, I did not get what he offered. As a result, I want my money back and I will ship the tires back.

He responds stating the tires should last another 15k and he paypal sends me $100. In addition to that, he states it is the last time he will talk about this issue.

In my book, I got ripped off big time.
the rear tires are gone so they are going to the trash. the fronts are not acceptable and they are going to the trash too. Now, I lost $245

I tried to make this guy understand that he posted wrong information about the tires. But he just did not get it. He even blamed me for not asking for more info at front.
I guess I screwed up by not asking for pics and measurements of tread. I took this guy at face value and never doubted that the tires did not have 85% tread remaining. my bad for not being a more cautious buyer.

The seller, on the other hand, is a liar with no much in terms of principles.
I would never sell worn out tires hoping that some one would buy them.
it is unsafe and I'd not want someone to have an accident.

It is obvious that this guy does not care about that. If not to me, I suspect he would have sold them to someone else. Enjoy your dirty money man.

I share this experience with you so you can be aware of this guy and so you can be better buyers. Do not take people at face value.

As for me, I will learn from this bad experience.
I have a dent in my wallet, I will have to let my wallet heal a little and then go buy new tires from the tirerack. I guess my M6 rims will have to wait a while before I put them on my car. Funny, the M6 rims will arrive tomorrow.
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      04-18-2007, 09:12 PM   #2
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If you are bored, here is the emails I exchanged with this guy:

my first message:

Andre,
I just went to pick up the tires and I have to say they do not have
more than 85% of tread remaining as you indicated in your post.

The fronts are ok. both are fading on one edge. but the middle tread is ok.
The rears are extremely worn out. the edge groves are gone and the middle
of the tire tread are very worn out on both rears.

My first reaction is to return the tires. But, let me know what you suggest.

Frank

His response:

I will level with you. When I advertised the tires online, I inspected them while on the vehicle and gave an honest assessment of what I saw. When the tires came off the car (same day I shipped) I noticed the rears did have less life in them than the fronts upon closer inspection. But I dont think there's any question that you got more than what you paid for. I mean, you didnt pay 85% of what the tires cost new. You paid half, including shipping.

For the price you paid, you did not get ripped off by any stretch of the imagination. On the other hand, It is my fault for not giving you the opportunity to reconsider after I was able to get a clear view of the rear tires unobstructed. For that disadvantage Im willing to credit you back $45. That would make your total cost a mere $300 for tires that were already fairly priced. Im offering this as a compromise because I dont want you feel like you were shafted. Let me know what you think. But thats all i can offer.

My response:
Andre,
Thanks for your response and for trying to work things out.
Thanks also for your offer to refund $45. Unfortunately, that is not acceptable.
Let me explain...

According to the General tires website:
http://www.generaltire.com/generator...tition_en.html
Also see attached specs for the tires you sent.

The depth tread for these tires is 10/32mm
They have a marker that goes across the tire to indicate when the tire is worn out to the point it is unsafe to drive with it.

I got a tire tread gauge and found the following:
Front tire 1 = depth = 5/32 = 50% tread remaining
front tire 2 = depth = 5/32 = 50% tread remaining
rear tire 1 = depth = 3/32 = 30% tread remaining
rear tire 2 = depth = 2/32 = 20% tread remaining

This text taken from tirerack.com:
"According to most states' laws, tires are legally worn out when they have worn down to 2/32" of remaining tread depth. To help warn drivers that their tires have reached that point, tires sold in North America are required to have indicators molded into their tread design called "wear bars" which run across their tread pattern from their outside shoulder to inside shoulder. Wear bars are designed to visually connect the elements of the tire's tread pattern and warn drivers when their tires no longer meet minimum tread depth requirements."

With that said and shown in the attached pictures, one rear tire tread is level with the indicator,
and the other one is almost there.

The basic test recommended by tirerack.com is to use a quarter or a penny to measure
tread depth.
see article here: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=51

I send you 2 pictures where I use a quarter. those are the front tires and you can see that
there is more than 4/32 tread remaining. my tread gauge measured them at 5/32.
I also send you one picture showing you the tread gauge in action on one front tire.
There is another picture where I use a penny. this is one of the rear tires.
the tread barely meets the head of Lincoln meaning that there is less than 2/32 of tread remaining.
I send you other pics so you can see where the tire tread is at the same level as the "wear bar".

In conclusion, and for safety reasons, I cannot use the rear tires.
they are in fact "gone". The 2 front tires are at the 50% mark of wear.

Compare that to your statement in e90post.com:
"Gently used General Exclaim UHP's for sale. 235/35/19 in the front, and 265/30/19 in the back. I ordered a new set of wheels for my 325I on Monday, and Im expecting them on Friday. Im upgrading from 19's to 20's. Ive only had the wheels & tires for 6 months with about 7500 miles on them. So there is more than 85% of tread remaining."

Your statement above is the one that sold me on the tires. I trusted you and I think I
went above and beyond to get them from you. I sent you a deposit of $150 as a deposit and as
a token to show you that I was a serious buyer. I sent you the money without seeing the tires, without knowing you at all.
One one hand, this is a lesson for me to be more careful when shopping used stuff and not
seeing what I'm getting.
On the other hand, I don't believe you had bad intentions. As you said, you were trying to sell
tires you thought were still in good shape.

Well Andre, I have given you my assessment of the tires and I hope you can understand that
$345 for 2 50% worn tires and 2 completely worn out tires is not a good deal at all.
For $518 (not including shipping) I can get 4 100% tread tires from tire rack. (see attachment)

If you want to make things right, I ask you to please refund my $345 and I'll send you the tires back.

Thanks,
Frank

His response:

Ok this has officially turned into a nightmare for the both of us. I feel horrible that you are dissatisfied with the tires but there is no way Im going to refund the tires. As I read your response Im wondering where this meticulous tire guru with gauges & reference sheets was when we were negotiating the transaction. From my perspective as a seller, you suddenly crossed the line from casual driver seeking functioning tires for cheap, to: Educated consumer seeking next to new tires with certain conditions. And if you brought any of these concerns to me earlier i would have obliged your inquiries thru pictures and/or conversation. And by doing so we would have figured out early on that my product did not meet your standards and gone our separate ways.

But Im adamant that the average consumer would have been happy with the tires they got, for the condition they are in, at the price I offered. You are clearly not the average consumer, so its up to you to request the penny test, pictures etc. beforehand. You cant cite these concerns after the deal is done. This entire transaction was handled in the manner of an impulse buyer/impulse seller kind of way. And under those conditions you cant expect me to honor the minor details that were never discussed in the first place. It was a buy as-is & at your own risk transaction. And I priced the tires accordingly. That is my stance on this. I am not a con-man & I feel like shit about the whole thing. But this experience is not about misrepresentation on my part as much as it is a lack of communication on your part. I can credit you $75. Thats the best I can do. Let me know.

My response:
Andre,
I do admit I was very stupid to just believe your "85% tread remaining" statement when you put them on sale. This mistake will cost me a lot of money it seems.
Your "as is" statement was that the tires had 85% tread remaining.
True that, had I asked for pictures/measurements, I would not have bought the tires.
I'd have suggested you throw away the rears. they are useless. it would be unsafe for anyone
to ride them.

I simply believed you. and that is my big mistake.

I don't need to be a tire expert to see that the tires are not what you advertised.
they are not close to the conditions you stated to sell them. I had to go buy the tire tread gauge just to give you more factual information and not guesstimates.

with that said:
You posted misleading information.
The tires were not priced according to their condition.
your statement was deceiving and despite my analysis on them, you still stand firm that you made no mistake.
On top of that, you put all the blame on me.
the "as is" sale was based on your statement: "85% tread remaining".
so if I had a lack of communication, you posted wrong information.
it is obvious that they are not "as is" as you advertised them.

try doing a feeler on the newsgroup for 2 50% front tires and 2 worn out rears for $285
and let's see how many respond.

Had you say that and had I bought them knowing that, I would have no right now to be
asking for my money back. because in that case, I'd have truly bought them "as is" knowing
at front what I was getting.

In this case, you said 4 85% tires and I got 2 50% tread tires and 2 useless tires.

In my mind, your "as is" statement is way off.

I was hoping you were a man of principles and I would make you realize that this is not a fair transaction. But you seem to only care about the money you got.

In my case, I lost all the money because I'll never mount the rears and I might as well forget
about the fronts.

For the last time, I ask you to reconsider your decision and realize that you did not sell me what
you offered. In my mind, the right thing to do is to accept the return.

I'm willing to compromise to buy the 2 fronts and eat the cost of shipping 4 tires.
Can you send me $142 back?

Thanks,
Frank

his final email:
Ive credited you a total of $100. And that is my ABSOLUTE threshold. How do I know? Because now Im bitter, and left feeling just as screwed as you do. So as far as Im concerned we're even. Those tires both front & rear will carry you at least $15k miles. My conscience is clear, & this is the last time I will speak on this issue. Enjoy your tires.
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      04-18-2007, 09:27 PM   #3
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Taking the risk to be hammered by both of you guys:me-
I read the whole thread. My opinion, both of you came out of this transaction very unhappy...and both of you seem very sincere and good people...Sorry to hear this happened.
Try to do your best and put this episode behind you.
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      04-18-2007, 09:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyejammy
You may already know this is the highest rated tire on Tirerack, especially in treadwear. So when I say these tires have not endured a 1/4 of their treadlife you can understand why.
That sucks, I just read the email exchanges. The rears are useless, they are nowhere close to having 85% of thread left. They were misrepresented plain and simple. Sure you were buying used tires and didn't expect brand new condition but your purchase and agreement was based on the 85% thread/15k miles left statement/condition. Since this is not the case, you're definitely in the right on this matter.

Sorry to hear that Frank, I hope you can get some sort of resolution soon.
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      04-18-2007, 11:33 PM   #5
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Yeah he ripped you off. He admitted after the fact that he notice the tread was lower than what he first thought but didn't tell you before he shipped.

I wouldn't trust someone with such a low post count. looks like he hasn't been on since.
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      04-19-2007, 12:16 AM   #6
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if you paid with a credit card call the company and dispute it.
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      04-19-2007, 12:27 AM   #7
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Sorry to hear about this, FrankoQ. I see you ended up choosing M6 rims. I've read some of your posts and saw you were looking at 18's. Did you decide on 19's? And did you go with **********s? What did you learn about Bekkers?
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      04-19-2007, 12:32 AM   #8
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wow, that sucks. i was gonna pick this up too. i would file dispute with paypal. if not with your cc company. that sucks. that is not even close to 50%. wow.
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      04-19-2007, 01:26 AM   #9
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Dayum! He ripped you off plain and simple. Once he saw how crappy the tires were...he should have disclosed to you. He basically just took your money and sent you trash.



That is why you should always ask for pics, no matter how common or well known the item is. Its for your protection to see the item is exactly as described and to inspect the condition of such item before sending your $$$.
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      04-19-2007, 08:44 AM   #10
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Thanks for the support guys.
This is a lesson learned for me.
I'm not an impulsive buyer. I try to be very careful with these online
transactions. But, I dropped the ball plain and simple.

I paid with paypal. Is there anything I can do?
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      04-19-2007, 08:54 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beauderek View Post
Sorry to hear about this, FrankoQ. I see you ended up choosing M6 rims. I've read some of your posts and saw you were looking at 18's. Did you decide on 19's? And did you go with **********s? What did you learn about Bekkers?
I decided on 19s.
I was concerned about ride quality, but I was able to drive swoop's car that has the M6 rims in 19.
The ride felt a little better than my 18s with RFTs.
On top of that, I think I started to once I saw the M6 rims in gunmetal.
They look good in pictures, but once you see them "live"... you just HAVE to have them.
Funny thing is that my M6 will arrive today. And now I have no tires for them. sucks but I'll be over it.

Finally, I went with **********s. I think they were getting sick of all the questions I kept sending. Both Mike and Ron were nice to respond to my PMs.

Bekkers? apparently, they discontinued the M6 in 18.
But they were more expensive anyway. You had to buy the center caps and the M logos.
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      04-19-2007, 08:55 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankoQ View Post
Thanks for the support guys.
This is a lesson learned for me.
I'm not an impulsive buyer. I try to be very careful with these online
transactions. But, I dropped the ball plain and simple.

I paid with paypal. Is there anything I can do?
you can file a dispute with paypal, but i dont think anything will happen if he doesnt have funds in his account....they will blackball his info tho, so he will have trouble signing up a new account or even using it for future transactions...oh and if you couldnt tell from the trendicks issue, paypal =
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      04-19-2007, 09:51 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctgazer View Post
you can file a dispute with paypal, but i dont think anything will happen if he doesnt have funds in his account....they will blackball his info tho, so he will have trouble signing up a new account or even using it for future transactions...oh and if you couldnt tell from the trendicks issue, paypal =
Thanks for the info. I will file a dispute.
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      04-19-2007, 06:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankoQ View Post
I decided on 19s.
I was concerned about ride quality, but I was able to drive swoop's car that has the M6 rims in 19.
The ride felt a little better than my 18s with RFTs.
On top of that, I think I started to once I saw the M6 rims in gunmetal.
They look good in pictures, but once you see them "live"... you just HAVE to have them.
Funny thing is that my M6 will arrive today. And now I have no tires for them. sucks but I'll be over it.

Finally, I went with **********s. I think they were getting sick of all the questions I kept sending. Both Mike and Ron were nice to respond to my PMs.

Bekkers? apparently, they discontinued the M6 in 18.
But they were more expensive anyway. You had to buy the center caps and the M logos.
Good info, thanks. Good luck with your dispute. Hope it works out for you. You'll get those M6 reps on you ride, soon enough!
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      04-20-2007, 12:22 AM   #15
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How the heck is he gonna try to sell those tires?? WOW!!
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      04-20-2007, 08:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctgazer View Post
you can file a dispute with paypal, but i dont think anything will happen if he doesnt have funds in his account....they will blackball his info tho, so he will have trouble signing up a new account or even using it for future transactions...oh and if you couldnt tell from the trendicks issue, paypal =
As you said, the dispute got nowhere. Paypay just washed their hands and closed it. I will call my CC and see if they can do anything.
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      04-20-2007, 09:46 AM   #17
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sorry to hear about this incident Frank!

Ive had similiar situations, just I charge it to "Experience" as they say.:mad:
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      04-20-2007, 10:15 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankoQ View Post
As you said, the dispute got nowhere. Paypay just washed their hands and closed it. I will call my CC and see if they can do anything.
At least leave him some bad feedback, so no one else gets ripped!
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      04-20-2007, 12:48 PM   #19
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Do you still have the box where it was ship from?? There should be a return address. File a FL police report and indicate you were scam by this person. Keep all the photos/emails on hand. This mofo shouldnt even be driving a bimmer at all....what a lowlife to scam a member here.
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      04-20-2007, 03:13 PM   #20
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dispute it man, that's really bad misrep and it shoould be a pretty clear cut case
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      04-20-2007, 03:40 PM   #21
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Even in his email response, he admits to selling you tires less than described. Who gives a shit if he still thinks you got a good deal...he misrepresented the tires. He should have pulled the tires off himself and checked the depths with a simple coin prior to eyeballing them on the car and guessing 85%. What an asshole. Call your CC company immediately.
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musc is offline   United_States
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      04-20-2007, 05:52 PM   #22
picus
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Sincere or not, he advertised the tires as having 85% tread, right in the first post. Regardless of what you paid, they don't have 85% tread, which means he lied. He should refund the full amount.
picus is offline   Canada
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