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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > How does all this torque help?



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      04-21-2007, 02:11 PM   #1
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How does all this torque help?

I don't understand why there is all this talk about the torque?

How does it help?

E60 M5 500hp and 386 torque:

0-60 - 4.5 sec
1/4 mile - 12.3

E55 AMG 500 hp and 517 torque:
0-60 - 4.5 sec
1/4 mile - 12.4 (Road & Track)

The M5 is just as fast with much less torque than the E55.

So, why alll this talk about the torque? Not trying to flame anything or anyone...just wondering....
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      04-21-2007, 02:14 PM   #2
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Maybe the E55 AMG car started in 4th gear?
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      04-21-2007, 02:28 PM   #3
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Hp = how fast youll hit a wall.

Tq = How far youll take a wall with you.
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      04-21-2007, 02:35 PM   #4
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Around town, passing, etc. torque is nice for the get up and GO but on acceleration tests, horsepower takes over.
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      04-21-2007, 02:38 PM   #5
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Nah, they both weight about the same, ~4000 lbs.

These snapshot numbers are just that, snapshot. You need to look at the entire curve. A car with a fat torque curve that peaks at 400lb-ft is much faster than a car that has a skinny curve with a 400lb-ft peak.

Remember, you don't drive at the peak all day, you sweep through the revs.
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      04-21-2007, 02:41 PM   #6
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Torque pulls you back into the seat. Better than a Chiropractor.
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      04-21-2007, 02:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftcoastman View Post
Nah, they both weight about the same, ~4000 lbs.

These snapshot numbers are just that, snapshot. You need to look at the entire curve. A car with a fat torque curve that peaks at 400lb-ft is much faster than a car that has a skinny curve with a 400lb-ft peak.

Remember, you don't drive at the peak all day, you sweep through the revs.
+1

I didnt notice they both weighed the same.
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      04-21-2007, 03:22 PM   #8
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There's alot more to it then just numbers. Weight, gearing and the way the power is distributed all play a part.
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      04-21-2007, 03:39 PM   #9
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      04-21-2007, 03:50 PM   #10
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      04-21-2007, 03:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacAttack View Post
Torque pulls you back into the seat. Better than a Chiropractor.
Really? Maybe all my patients should be driving 335s
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      04-21-2007, 04:00 PM   #12
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Horsepower is what ultimately makes a car go fast -- it is a measure of power output. Torque is a measure of how much twist the engine will make... but torque is important in how the curve looks over the whole rpm range. Torque made at higher rpm's allows you to take advantage of gearing so that you get the same acceleration force at the wheels as cars making more torque but at lower rpms.

They are directly related by the equation hp = torque x rpm / 5252

Cases in point: Some diesel pickup trucks have 600 ft-lbs of torque (made at very low rpm) but are slower than molasses. On the other extreme, a Honda S2000 has very little torque but makes it at high rpm and thus makes decent power (and resulting excellent acceleration when you keep it in the powerband).
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      04-21-2007, 04:31 PM   #13
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      04-21-2007, 05:25 PM   #14
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Torque = the amount of turning force at crankshaft
Horsepower = the rate at which the crankshaft turns

That's at least what I think they are..
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      04-21-2007, 05:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90ice View Post
I don't understand why there is all this talk about the torque?

How does it help?

E60 M5 500hp and 386 torque:

0-60 - 4.5 sec
1/4 mile - 12.3

E55 AMG 500 hp and 517 torque:
0-60 - 4.5 sec
1/4 mile - 12.4 (Road & Track)

The M5 is just as fast with much less torque than the E55.

So, why alll this talk about the torque? Not trying to flame anything or anyone...just wondering....
Torque and horsepower are very similar.

Torque is the rotational force that turns the wheels. Horsepower is torque at a particular rpm.

Peak torque is not particularly relevant. You need to look at the torque CURVE. This indicates torque accross the rev range.

You also need to stop thinking about engine torque. Acceleration is greatest when torque at the wheels is greatest.

To understand torque at the wheels you need to look at gearing. Gearing multiplies torque. This is why cars accelerate hardest in lower gears because they multiply the torque more.

The gearing and redline are the key differences between the 2 cars you have posted above.

The Merc has much more torque but about the same HP. This suggests that the redline comes earlier because HP = torque at a given rpm. The 2 cars also have different gearing and (I think) a different number of gears.

The multiplying affect of gearing is extremely important and torque at high revs is very useful because it can be multiplied more.

This is why the M5 is as quick even though it has less torque.
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      04-21-2007, 06:31 PM   #16
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actually if you have been reading m5 owners are getting spanked by e55 e63 cls 55 cls63 cl55 cl63 s55 and soon to be s63 ....the torque allows for power throughout the power band...i another note i couldn't even keep up with a 335 in the s55 cause of how nimble it is...mercs are great in a straight line but weaving in and out of traffic better suits a small car...but if there was no traffic and i could just gunn it no 335 with a procede or not could catch me....the s55's torque is crazy powerful!!!! people are getting 4.1 0-60 and late 11's on the quartes in the s600 which is supposed to be slower than a 63 or 55....it's crazy just wish AMG's could handle as well as they pull and there steering was as good as bmw....there would be no competition for merc then they would own...but i gotta say i see a hell of a lot more cls, cl, s, and e class amg's than i see m5's and m6's...bmw's big mistake was making the car solely for the smg...what car company offers just the shitty smg even though europe loves it america hates it...then they come out with an even crappier 6sp and it is soooo crappy cause the car was never designed for it in the first place....i am shocked at how shitty the m5 is and how the options for it in terms of trani's suck ass.... no one want's to get there ass handed to them by a merc and in the s55 which is an 03' i rock the shit out of them on the highway, where 90% of the owners have fun with there car...on a track the m5 hands down will kill an amg but damn do they suck in a straight line comparison....i know europe loves the smg and it suites there mountainous driving style more but here in most parts of the US where people own m5's and amg's they aren't concerned with the car beating the merc on a track...they care about real life and comfort and the amg's just kill the m's for that reason....all this talk aout 420 hp and only 289 torque in the new m3....the new merc is gonna have aroung 480 in both the clk has i believe more than 500ft/lbs of torque at least 480...this will make it suck ass on a track cause it will just keep pealing out after a turn which is why bmw relies more on revs and hp to make power than torque....hence why the bmw will win on a track and the merc on the highway
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      04-21-2007, 07:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed View Post
Torque and horsepower are very similar.

To understand torque at the wheels you need to look at gearing. Gearing multiplies torque. This is why cars accelerate hardest in lower gears because they multiply the torque more.
While I agree that torque in and of itself isn't enough to determine how fast a car is, I wouldn't say it's so simple to say that torque multiplication is what makes low gear acceleration so rapid.

At low gearing, you are travelling at low speed. Air resistance increases as a square of speed. At higher gears, you're probably going at a high speed, therefore the power necessary to overcome that air resistance (which has been growing as a square) is much higher.
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      04-21-2007, 08:07 PM   #18
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The reason Merc's engines are tuned/designed to have so much torque is that it fits their luxurious character.

Torque moves a large heavy car away from a stop light with little effort...which feels 'luxurious.' Makes the driver feel powerful b/c there is so much reserve.

That's why past Bentley/Rolls used slow revving 6.7 liter engines with insanely low redlines and have a power reserve gauge on the dash...they want you to know how little their engines are working ("Out of my way peasant!!").

This charactersitic is why BMWs inline-6 is so loved. It's one half of a V12....perfectly balanced and it feels rich with torque, yet nimble. This makes the TT 6 so incredible...it's never 'off cam.' A racing clydesdale if there was such a thing.

This is the hey dey of the modern combustion engine. Drive em' while we got em'

Still not a good idea to try and out pull a Merc with a 63 or 55 on the back
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      04-21-2007, 08:30 PM   #19
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hahahahah went to grab some food and saw an m5 aston db9 convertable, porche 997 gt3, and last but not least an e92 335 all in the glen just north of chicago(a residential community with an outdoor shopping area with some good restaurants as well)...needless to say glad i chose there to eat got to see a new gt3!!!! hawwwt and i was talking to a guy with an m5 and he said the same thing the smg sucks and when he went to go drive the 6spd he said it is soo jerky you may as well stick with the smg...he couldn't understand how they could make a great great car with a shittie trans as well!!!
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      04-21-2007, 08:38 PM   #20
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This is an old write up but one of the better simplistic explanations I have seen.

Horsepower and Torque

A Quick quote:

Quote:
OK. If torque is so all-fired important, why do we care about horsepower?
Because (to quote a friend), "It is better to make torque at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*.

Last edited by scalbert; 04-21-2007 at 08:58 PM.
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      04-21-2007, 08:56 PM   #21
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There is more to making a car fast in a straight line then just HP and TQ. Have you ever heard of gearing and weight before?
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      04-21-2007, 10:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by De90man View Post
The reason Merc's engines are tuned/designed to have so much torque is that it fits their luxurious character.

Torque moves a large heavy car away from a stop light with little effort...which feels 'luxurious.' Makes the driver feel powerful b/c there is so much reserve.

That's why past Bentley/Rolls used slow revving 6.7 liter engines with insanely low redlines and have a power reserve gauge on the dash...they want you to know how little their engines are working ("Out of my way peasant!!").

This charactersitic is why BMWs inline-6 is so loved. It's one half of a V12....perfectly balanced and it feels rich with torque, yet nimble. This makes the TT 6 so incredible...it's never 'off cam.' A racing clydesdale if there was such a thing.

This is the hey dey of the modern combustion engine. Drive em' while we got em'

Still not a good idea to try and out pull a Merc with a 63 or 55 on the back
Nice writeup!
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