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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N55 Turbo Engine Tuning and Exhaust Modifications - 335i Tuning > E85, simple power boost for tune only/FBO (no meth) N55 cars?



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      09-01-2011, 01:53 PM   #1
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E85, simple power boost for tune only/FBO (no meth) N55 cars?

Was browsing another forum and was inspired by some E85 talk.

I used to use E85 on my old MR2 with success but it did have an upgraded fuel system.

Now I know that the N54 doesn't have the fuel supply to run E85 safely as they can make 400whp FBO without meth....

However... with most of the N55 cars dynoing low 300's tune-only, and a few in the mid 300's FBO, would it stand to reason that even though we are limited by turbo size, there should be the same fuel system headroom as the N54?

For instance, if the Proceed autotuning works out, and using E85 on our cars yields similar results as the rest of the tuning world, couldn't we pick up a bunch of mid range torque, and extra CC cooling running E85?

I'm just thinking if a tune-only N55 car puts down 325whp and the fuel system is capable of 400whp, that's almost 25% fuel capacity unused to account for the extra fuel requirements of E85... plus you'd get the torque/cooling bump of using that fuel.

Thoughts?
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      09-01-2011, 02:15 PM   #2
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Maybe but I doubt it. How could you even use it? Do you have the proper size injectors to run it (no one makes any as far as I know). In any case - N54 or N55, there is DI in play here which could greatly degrade the fuel system. If you could do it, I am all for it... I know very well what it does for Evo's - albeit those are not DI cars and and it's much easier to replace the components to make it run.
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      09-01-2011, 05:00 PM   #3
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i had asked Shiv if i could do it and he can tune it a few months ago, his answer basically was he wouldnt do it bc of fuel supply...so im guessing his fuel system they are working on will help us soon i hope :0)
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      09-01-2011, 06:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Questforpower View Post
Maybe but I doubt it. How could you even use it? Do you have the proper size injectors to run it (no one makes any as far as I know). In any case - N54 or N55, there is DI in play here which could greatly degrade the fuel system. If you could do it, I am all for it... I know very well what it does for Evo's - albeit those are not DI cars and and it's much easier to replace the components to make it run.
If anything, DI cars are MORE equipped to use E85... the injector seals are rated for ridiculous heat (as they are exposed to the combustion chamber), and a lot of the fuel lines are hard lines to deal with the vastly increased fuel pressures.

You don't need "proper" sized injectors, you just need 20-30% headroom above your current injectors output. I wrote it in my first post but I'll reiterate it... if the injectors/pump have similar output between the N54 and N55, then it stands to reason that the N55 fuel system should be capable of 400-425whp like the N54.

If we are making 335whp on average, that leaves 25% fuel capacity still availabe, possibly making E85 a viable choice. Not to mention both the N54 and N55 target lambda values for fuel, not stoichiometric AFRs, so the system will adjust itself correctly.

The only issues I see are a slim chance we'd run out of fuel capacity, and rough running in open loop, specifically cold start.... that's where Shiv would come in... make a map specifically for E85 to run slightly more midrange boost (due to higher octane) and clean up the cold start and idle conditions.

It's not a solution to anything, but I for one wouldn't mind the added safety of E85's effective octane. Not to mention the bump in torque at the same boost levels.
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      09-01-2011, 08:22 PM   #5
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I am not sure I am understanding what it is exactly that you are saying. The N55 is definitely limited by the turbo size and ethanol itself is more resistant to knock allowing you to run more boost safely. We can't run more boost not because of fueling but simply because the turbo can't handle it - how is this supposed to allow us to gain higher peak power levels? I can definitely see this as being efficient in an Evo that has a massive sized turbo where you can run a lot of boost but I am not sure I see the advantage in an N55 which is limited by turbo size. You also mention extra cooling benefits and a slight TQ bump midrange but how is that different than meth or in any way more convenient?

I only currently see a risk here to degrading our fuel system, please name me one DI vehicle that runs ethanol- I would love to read up more on it...

It would be much different if had some massive turbo that ran high boost and needed more fuel but we are far from that and at present moment meth seems to do ok. If you are looking for that 400 WHP #, look for a turbo upgrade first.

Please correct me if I am wrong or if I am understanding this incorrectly but I don't exactly see the point here... especially when most BMW owners never track their cars unlike most Evo owners where even getting ethanol would be a challenge.
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      09-01-2011, 11:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Questforpower View Post
Please correct me if I am wrong or if I am understanding this incorrectly but I don't exactly see the point here...
Well, you're not exactly wrong, you're just misunderstanding the point.

All the internet fanboys care about is peak power and dyno queen bullshit.

Yes, the A/R of our turbo's exhaust side limits the amount of boost we can make *NEAR REDLINE* It does not hold us back at lower rpm and midrange.

To me, the most useful car is a car that has the most area under the torque curve, not the one that makes the most peak horsepower for 100rpm.

By running E85, we could run slightly higher boost from 3000-5500 (17-18psi?) and get a nice 20-40wtq bump in that meaty area. Yes it would fall off towards redline. I don't know about you but I spend very little time above 6000rpm on a day to day basis. I spent quite a bit of time in the 3-6000rpm area of the curve.

The benefit over meth is that you don't need ANY failsafe. No external pumps to worry about, lines that can leak, fittings to get clogged, etc. It's like running meth all the time, without any of the risk (or obvious mod for those still under warranty).

You can try to make the argument that E85 is corrosive but it's a moot point. Today's fuel systems are more than capable.. as proven by 10 year old Suburus running E85 for 40,000+ miles with no ill effects. Not to mention our fuel systems have less rubber than PFI systems.

I'm just saying... if I can average 450wtq from 3k-5.5k instead of 400wtq it will make a big difference in driving enjoyment. Even if I only make 5whp more peak power.
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      09-02-2011, 08:16 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostd92 View Post
Well, you're not exactly wrong, you're just misunderstanding the point.

All the internet fanboys care about is peak power and dyno queen bullshit.

Yes, the A/R of our turbo's exhaust side limits the amount of boost we can make *NEAR REDLINE* It does not hold us back at lower rpm and midrange.

To me, the most useful car is a car that has the most area under the torque curve, not the one that makes the most peak horsepower for 100rpm.

By running E85, we could run slightly higher boost from 3000-5500 (17-18psi?) and get a nice 20-40wtq bump in that meaty area. Yes it would fall off towards redline. I don't know about you but I spend very little time above 6000rpm on a day to day basis. I spent quite a bit of time in the 3-6000rpm area of the curve.


The benefit over meth is that you don't need ANY failsafe. No external pumps to worry about, lines that can leak, fittings to get clogged, etc. It's like running meth all the time, without any of the risk (or obvious mod for those still under warranty).

You can try to make the argument that E85 is corrosive but it's a moot point. Today's fuel systems are more than capable.. as proven by 10 year old Suburus running E85 for 40,000+ miles with no ill effects. Not to mention our fuel systems have less rubber than PFI systems.

I'm just saying... if I can average 450wtq from 3k-5.5k instead of 400wtq it will make a big difference in driving enjoyment. Even if I only make 5whp more peak power.
I can definitely agree with the advantages that ethanol can offer, I know exactly what it can offer on an Evo. I personally love the fact that it's cheap in terms of fuel even though it's used up a little quicker. The universal problem with ethanol that still exists is its availability... the N54/N55 community loves Meth because of its availability everywhere and the possibility of making it yourself, remember that the BMW owners are not quite as willing as Evo owners in terms of sacrifice. Just in Florida, there are only a few stations so you are automatically limited right there.

The other problem is the short time weird idle and odd startup when cold with ethanol - is this something that you truly want to live with on a luxury car like a BMW?

If you can somehow do this, I am all for it but I doubt it would take off, you can see no one else is commenting on this probably because they don't understand the advantages or don't understand how this would work or the disadvantages with respect to availability.
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      09-02-2011, 08:54 AM   #8
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someone figure it out, and be the guinea pig for about 6 months, post your results, and then ill think about it........
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      09-02-2011, 09:10 AM   #9
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You guys are only talking about boost lol. One of the great things about e85 is the ability to increase timing even further. Having a restrictive turbo doesn't play a role in how much timing you can run so you may be able to pick up efficient power full curve with a good tune.
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      09-02-2011, 09:53 AM   #10
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Me being an old evo owner with a big turbo I for one loved E 85, scrolling & reading the evo forums E 85 opened the cars up immensely & I was on the verge of doing it but got a beamer haha. I will tell you this on big turbo evos with E 85 the amt of timing you could run & boost was a shit load more. We have guys running like 40PSI on an FP Black with like +13* Timing. Thing made insane power. I really hope they can somehow use E 85 on this car, on Long Island E-85 carrying gar stations are everywhere now. Im a big fan of the mid range tq that it provides its pretty amazing.
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      09-02-2011, 10:32 AM   #11
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The thing I think is neat is that it doesn't require any extra parts to take advantage of what excess fuel capacity we have (in relation to 400whp N54's).

That's where Shiv would come in. The Proceed has switchable maps... so you make one map an E85 map that has cold start aid and more aggressive timing. Then when availability is a problem, you switch over to a gasoline map... seems pretty straightforward to me

I know it's all BS until someone tests it, but discussion is what forums are for

The real problem is selling it to all the hard nosed dyno-queen people (which is the majority of people who base their tuning/automotive scene knowledge on the internet and not first hand experience). Without a dyno that shows 30whp+ peak gains the fanboys will think it's worthless. It's too bad because if you go drive a nasty midrange torque car and then go drive a peaky high rpm car you'll see which one is more fun on the street.

I guess then we expose the traction issue a bit more
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      09-02-2011, 11:35 AM   #12
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Boostd, I agree with 99% of what you say but I am not so sure it's even worth exploring alternative fueling when our power levels are maxed out so low and we haven't even crossed the 360 Wheel Horsepower level. Yeah, I understand the TQ/timing advantages with E85 but I would be hard pressed to find anyone and convince them to try a different fuel for something that has so little advantage yet be something that could damage the system especially when more convenient options like meth are available.

E85 didn't come into play in Evos or Supras until they were running 9-10's in the 1/4 or already producing over 900-1000 hp. I am not so sure simpler things have been figured out with this platform, so I think we are quite far from even exploring different fueling.
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      05-17-2012, 07:55 PM   #13
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friendly bump -


e85 station open locally
been doing a e85 mix.
immediate difference - an immense smooth build.
car temp runn'n cooler, run'n less boost on tune, feel'n more power.
noticeable upper-mid range gains.
feels like, from butt dyno it open up another 15-20whp+
i like to say even more --

boostd92 - ur right on the money.
i'm for increase'n timing on this stock turbo-
so much smoother - im sure a dyno will
show it as well.
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      05-17-2012, 08:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankiE90 View Post
friendly bump -


e85 station open locally
been doing a e85 mix.
immediate difference - an immense smooth build.
car temp runn'n cooler, run'n less boost on tune, feel'n more power.
noticeable upper-mid range gains.
feels like, from butt dyno it open up another 15-20whp+
i like to say even more --

boostd92 - ur right on the money.
i'm for increase'n timing on this stock turbo-
so much smoother - im sure a dyno will
show it as well.
How much is your mix? 70/30?
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      05-17-2012, 08:19 PM   #15
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I run 2.8 gal of e85 and 93. The Car runs incredible with a low amount any more than 20% and it starts freaking out.
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      05-17-2012, 08:39 PM   #16
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Last tank I ran was 4 gallons E85, rest 93. Had no problems until I got down near empty. At about 50 miles remaining on my range I had a little stumble at idle, and it didn't catch the revs nicely when shifting to neutral... they'd drop past the idle point and the car would bog and stumble. It died once.

I can't be sure of the reason... could have been crap in the bottom of my tank. Since I'm stock, I filled back up with 93 only and she runs fine.

My procede is on the way (or at least I think). I was PMing robert@vishnu a couple times a day before I sent payment and he was very prompt at responding. Now that they have my money, I haven't heard anything....

I will get right to datalogging with the E85 mix as soon as I get a handle on the Procede, etc.
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      05-17-2012, 09:20 PM   #17
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ive been running a 30/70 mix for two tanks. And on my last one i actually upped it to 45/55. My car has never crapped out on me or anything yet(knock on wood). The car seems much smoother and qqueiter?
and also dynoed 360 whp with the 30% mix with no fmic or meth @ ~14.8 psi.
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      05-17-2012, 10:04 PM   #18
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Nice, I've been running 4-5 gallons of e85 to 93 and my n55 really does love it!
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      05-18-2012, 12:32 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdyates
Nice, I've been running 4-5 gallons of e85 to 93 and my n55 really does love it!
I think 5 gallons of e85 and 10 gallons of 91is the perfect mix.
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      05-18-2012, 03:05 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyLow335i
You guys are only talking about boost lol. One of the great things about e85 is the ability to increase timing even further. Having a restrictive turbo doesn't play a role in how much timing you can run so you may be able to pick up efficient power full curve with a good tune.
^+1
It looks like we will have an e85 map sometime in the near future.

"When running a 50/50 mix with the current OTS map, the first thing I would do is set ignition correction to 0%. This alone is going to be worth 15-20whp and loads of midrange torque. And then run as much boost a you can without maxing out your fuel trims. When we release flexfuel map, user involvement will be far less. Just run whatever mix you want and let the Procede do the rest." -Shiv

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPWINCH
Shiv do you plan on bringing this over to the N55? And will it auto tune like terrys??
"Autotuning is too slow to adapt to wide swings in octane. But yes, it will be released for the n55 as well." -Shiv
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      05-18-2012, 04:05 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sA x sKy View Post
How much is your mix? 70/30?

yes.
little will go a long way.


drmdvl - yes tune adjusted,
saw that post
feels really good.
can't wait to get back on the track.
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      05-19-2012, 11:53 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankiE90
Quote:
Originally Posted by sA x sKy View Post
How much is your mix? 70/30?

yes.
little will go a long way.


drmdvl - yes tune adjusted,
saw that post
feels really good.
can't wait to get back on the track.
Frank if I do the 70/30 mix would I run my car on map2 or I'm better off on the autotune map? Does it have any bad effects on the n55?
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