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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > AUDIO/VIDEO + BLUETOOTH + Electronics/Alarm/Software > A re-look at the alpine H660



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      01-21-2012, 09:12 PM   #23
Pavlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
Pav, perhaps you are talking about bi-amp configuration.Mine is not bi-amped
Our sound systems sound best as a 3-way set-up, and as discussed above when introducing the H660 to the equation you MUST bi-amped to achieve this. If you don’t bi-amp (as you’ve said you haven’t) the set-up will not correlate properly with the H660, as far as I’m aware for our type of set-up. Maybe Kaigoss69 could confirm. (I know you’re not running a 3-way set-up I will come to that in abit)

Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
My sws-8 are the only sub running off PDX-5 sub channel in mono mode (parallel wiring)
Running your SWS-8s as mono subs will once again present an issue with the H660. As your telling it you have a coax front setup and subs and not a 2/3 – way set-up which is how these cars sound best, hence the staging will be all over the place IMO. The underseats are originally set-up as parallel mid-bass (as a 2-way system) you have since downgraded it to a single coax set-up and turned the underseat to mono SUB-woofer IMO they shouldn’t be treated as SUB-woofer ONLY but a complimentary part of a balanced and harmonised 3-way set-up. Otherwise this could possibly cause you an issue with your sound staging, as 4” drivers even high-end ones, as has been numerously times noted are just not good enough for full range on their own even in some 2-way systems, you need at least 5.25”/6.5” 2-way ONLY front stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
if I LPF them 50Hz they are not going to used until bass gets too low. I normally keep them between 110-90Hz. As cdgatti said if I setup as per your discussion above I will have a no driver playing 59-200Hz which doesn't sound good option to go for?
You should NOT be setting your LPF for the SWS8s to 50Hz you WILL create a “Gap”, once again this been mentioned MANY times above. Set it to 200Hz and leave it otherwise you will create a “gap” between your underseats and mid/doors since the H660 won’t allow them to go lower then 200Hz. Which is why I said if you like to play your underseats or doors at particular freq this could be a problem (you say you set them around 110Hz) well if you set them at that on the H660 you WILL have a “Gap” and even if like you said your 343is go down as low as 80Hz it would be irrelevant cause once again the x-over is 200Hz HPF on the H660

Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
2nd question I had is why would I even tweak frequency range, isn't H660 suppose to automatically do it?
H660 give you options to tune your sound (limited options) of treble, mid and bass. So you can fine tune it abit or you can just leave it and hope for the best from the automatic set-up function.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
Today I hooked H660 to the PDX-5 and surprisingly I don't see any noticeable difference. Music stage has been dragged a bit to the back, more towards the center of car, just behind my head towards the center.

I only connected the front to the L2 and R2 input of H660 as they are full range. Only thing I couldn't do is to connect PDX5 both sub input as I didn't have rca splitter connector. H660 gives only one sub out rca female and PDX has two input despite giving one mono output. Not sure if this makes a difference.

Tomorrow I will try stereo output connecting all 4 lines in and see if that makes a difference, if not it goes on ebay.
I’m not surprised you didn’t see any difference! A couple of standard coax speaker with no mid support running at 200Hz+, (did you even turn the LPF on your amp to 200Hz from 110Hz to match the doors) I'm surprised it didn’t sound worse then when you started. That step-up is just all over the place! I would say to look into FIRST changing your set-up to 2-way HQ component door mid/tweet introduce/install a centre speaker and then run the underseats parallel to the front on separate channel for a proper 3-way HQ front stage set-up. Then SECOND install the H660 to de-eq, tune and calibrate your system. ATM what you’re doing is sitting in a freezing house with all the doors and windows open and one fan heater on, saying “its freezing in here!” Well first go and close all the windows and doors and then you can try and warm up yourself and the house.
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      01-21-2012, 09:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgatti View Post
Do you mean HPF the 'front 2' channels at 40Hxz?
NO, NOT to set them to 40Hz! I was just putting in brackets the lowest range on the LPF. Just for FYI purposes...

I would say to set them to 200Hz LPF to "meet" the doors (as Kai mentioned) or if you drop them to say 150Hz LFP then your introducing a "Gap" of 50Hz etc...
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      01-22-2012, 07:16 AM   #25
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Does the H660 have remote turn on and auto off function similar to the Cleansweep?
Thanks
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      01-22-2012, 11:47 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWT View Post
Does the H660 have remote turn on and auto off function similar to the Cleansweep?
Thanks
"Power: An automatic signal sensing circuit turns on the processor along with your radio. When the input signal is absent for 5 minutes, the system turns off."

The wonders of offical sites in product details section....
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      01-23-2012, 06:50 AM   #27
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Pavlo, thanks for detailed analysis of my setup. You are right its sounding worse with H660. It was better without H660. I went as per the document which it does support 4 channel auto ranging input. When I connected all 4 channels and kept fader and balance to center as instructed in the manual it went from bad to worse (after re-eq) however sliding fader away from center (either direction) improves sound a lot but rear is better then the front. Using remote if I drag stage to rear I hear more tones and dragging in front gets rid of those tones. CIC is still in HiFi mode.

I am going to put better 2-way mids on my doors soon. Not sure it will be economical to have another amp in the boot, also there isn't any space left in the boot. E60 is pretty tight. Does it make sense to add good two way front in the doors and use MS-8 with PDX-5 as H660 isn't looking promising until I move to 3 way setup. I am not willing to do complete rewiring of my car and full replacement of all the components, its quite pricey move. At the moment all I can afford is another "good" two way front door mids and perhaps MS-8 at max.

Surprising H660's claim was to improve stock audio setup with minimum change not full upgrade of the car audio system.
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      01-23-2012, 06:58 AM   #28
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Also please suggest if something can be done in my setup without changing too many things. I am scared of wiring something from back of my car to the front, specially to the doors. It requires to remove the backseat and taking off too many panels.

In future I will perhaps put Morels/Focal K100 in the front doors. Can you suggest a better driver which isn't going to break the bank (like Morel/K100 will). Plan is to setup a true 7.1 system without going down BMW standard L7 route. This is what I have my mind:

Front doors: Morel 4" two way or suggest a good choice
Centre: Not sure pls suggest
Rear doors: Not sure pls suggest
Rear deck: Not sure pls suggest
Underseats: SWS-8
MS-8 with PDX-5

Would that do? All I need to do is to stretch a wire for center speaker from the boot of the car and while doing it I can do cabling for the rear doors too. This would be a major project.
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      01-24-2012, 08:31 PM   #29
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Time for upgrade...

Now your system was coded (CIC) if I remember correctly. Your signal is flat so you don’t have that nasty EQ curve. So when introduce a system like H660 it took your flat signal (which it would normalize itself, usually). And then tries to create a bespoke one from its 512 band EQ, unique to your components. So by it introducing a new sound stage or re-EQing your sound made it sound worse, then something is not set up right. As a professional EQ curve (If done properly!) can never sound worse than a dull flat one, IMO.

So what could be wrong?
  1. Set-up, Set-up, Set-up… On these type of systems, a calibration done once and done once again after can produce dramatically different results, due to factors such as mic positions, noise interferences and prior set-up. Many people try different ways and get different results,

    People find this DSP especially tricky and found only a couple of good ways to set-up or it sounds crap. If done properly though the sound staging has be noted as being very much improved. Here is a link of showing the tricks of installing and to likely achieve best results (its from Alpine themselves).

    The manual is crap, ignore it. Mic should only be used in four positions front two seats head height (left and right obv), arm rest head height and just behind arm rest between rear seats.
  2. Official link - -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3DFBtJoL8a
  3. Signal input… Remember the H660 can only work with a signal that it’s being fed. So if you connect a speaker levels in the form of the front/mids and connect underseats as subs it will not recognise it as a 3 ways system. So set-up correctly… Underseats must be part of 2 or 3 way set-up and the H660 must know about it or it won’t stage properly. You will have serious mid-range issues.
  4. The H660 is more aimed at adding aftermarket components then just adding it to a standard OEM system. Whereas the MS-8 is marketed mostly as “add to current OEM sound system”. So with the H660 its very important to have ALL the right components and correctly installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
I went as per the document which it does support 4 channel auto ranging input. When I connected all 4 channels and kept fader and balance to center as instructed in the manual it went from bad to worse (after re-eq) however sliding fader away from center (either direction) improves sound a lot but rear is better then the front. Using remote if I drag stage to rear I hear more tones and dragging in front gets rid of those tones. CIC is still in HiFi mode.
Once the system has been calibrated and optimized you should not use the HU fade/balance etc… As the system would of normally calibrated a unique signal for you at 2/3 volume with faders and balance in a set position. Introducing new variables throws the whole thing off. Even if it sounded better in some ways, it’s not the right way to do it. Just recalibrate it again, or make this changes to the balance/farder before (not recommended), and then just leave it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
I am going to put better 2-way mids on my doors soon. Not sure it will be economical to have another amp in the boot, also there isn't any space left in the boot.
One amp is more than enough to drive this type of system especially if you get the MS-8 (it has its own built-in one). So something like the HD600 or my one, would easily drive the underseats and some HQ front 2-ways. Along with the MS-8s built in amp driving a new centre speaker (which I recommend, it will really help with the overall front sound) and will drive the rears. Done!

Either way – MS-8 or not, you really need to upgrade to HQ 2-ways fronts first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
Does it make sense to add good two way front in the doors and use MS-8 with PDX-5 as H660 isn't looking promising until I move to 3 way setup.
Yes. Just get again a better amp so you can drive the underseats min 120w each STEREO, as per answer above! Otherwise you WILL have issues with sound staging since these are MID-bass drivers which shouldn’t be mono, and hence shouldn’t really be used as SUB only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
I am not willing to do complete rewiring of my car and full replacement of all the components, its quite pricey move. At the moment all I can afford is another "good" two way front door mids and perhaps MS-8 at max.
ALL you need IS a “good” set of comps for front and MS-8… (well maybe a slick 4 in centre mount but it’s like £30) That’s it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
Surprising H660's claim was to improve stock audio setup with minimum change not full upgrade of the car audio system.
ONLY if your car has a poor OEM EQ curve or is flat. MS-8 makes that claim too, but only because it has L7, very detailed 31-band graphic EQ with detailed crossover options and built in amp. H660 doesn’t have any of those. But, it doesn’t have a 4 x more price tag either…

Last edited by Pavlo; 01-24-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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      01-26-2012, 05:35 AM   #30
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Ok, got it. To start first I need new front driver first. I have come up with 3 choices.

1) Morel Ovation 4" - £240+
2) Focal K2 4" or - £200+
3) Vibe LiteAir 4" - £70ish

Given the price range Vibe is making more sense to me. Its a good compromise. Does someone have any experience of using vibe speakers? I think 1 and 2 are quite pricey not sure if they THAT good.
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      01-26-2012, 06:46 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afsar View Post
Ok, got it. To start first I need new front driver first. I have come up with 3 choices.

1) Morel Ovation 4" - £240+
2) Focal K2 4" or - £200+
3) Vibe LiteAir 4" - £70ish

Given the price range Vibe is making more sense to me. Its a good compromise. Does someone have any experience of using vibe speakers? I think 1 and 2 are quite pricey not sure if they THAT good.
Start a new thread.
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      02-12-2012, 05:15 PM   #32
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Having run H660 for a while now it isn't bad for the price it comes for. However I couldn't set it up for 4 channel use. There is no way I can put rear channels in use at all. Has anyone setup all 4 channels to work with H660 coming from CIC coded to the HiFi.

When I connect just the front one then the car lacks rear PDC audio and when I connect both rear and front then for some reason after calibration there is very little sound sound and no bass whatsoever when the fader is kept in middle (as it was while calibration) but if fader is moved towards front or rear then bass returns back but I believe brakes calibration and sound stage is dragged back. Just to let you know when all 4 channels are connected to H660 I didn't connect H660's bass line anywhere. Has any one tried H660 in 4 channel setup?
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