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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > NEW HPF BMW 135i/335i Stage 1 FERAMIC (750rwhp) Clutch - TEST DRIVE VIDEO



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      10-06-2011, 04:46 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ETS Michael View Post
One thing you guys may consider before jumping on the aluminum flywheel bandwagon is when fermamic material is heated up multiple times without cool down between runs it can actually weld to the flywheel and cause all kinds of fun

Thanks,

Michael
All clutch disks except the factory organic disks can weld themselves to lightweight flywheels. It may even be possible to weld an organic if you slip it long enough but I have never seen this occur. The reason the HPF feramic is so popular and "doesn't" exhibit this behavior is because the melting point of the material is so much higher (1200 degrees) than the other clutch disks on the market. The other reason is because it uses a full face clutch surface instead of 4 or 6 pucks taking the entire load of the engine. HOWEVER, even with the HPF Feramic if you take it out without a break-in and do very hard, long, high rpm launches with a lightweight flywheel and very sticky tires it is "remotely" possible to fuse this clutch if you can get enough heat in it. In the past when I have seen fused clutches of any type, I've often (about 50-75% of the time) determined the cause to be that one or two of the pressure plate bolts backed out.

Chris.
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      10-06-2011, 06:00 PM   #46
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good news, here, still getting these made by SouthBend?

their Feramics are top notch.
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      10-06-2011, 07:00 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF Chris View Post
All clutch disks except the factory organic disks can weld themselves to lightweight flywheels. It may even be possible to weld an organic if you slip it long enough but I have never seen this occur. The reason the HPF feramic is so popular and "doesn't" exhibit this behavior is because the melting point of the material is so much higher (1200 degrees) than the other clutch disks on the market. The other reason is because it uses a full face clutch surface instead of 4 or 6 pucks taking the entire load of the engine. HOWEVER, even with the HPF Feramic if you take it out without a break-in and do very hard, long, high rpm launches with a lightweight flywheel and very sticky tires it is "remotely" possible to fuse this clutch if you can get enough heat in it. In the past when I have seen fused clutches of any type, I've often (about 50-75% of the time) determined the cause to be that one or two of the pressure plate bolts backed out.

Chris.
Don't get me wrong, I would still run it and I might when our single kit is completed. Not sure what else would hold the power. I would just recommend a steel flywheel.
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      10-06-2011, 07:37 PM   #48
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Southbend clutches rock...I heard this is a Southbend make as well..
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      10-06-2011, 09:50 PM   #49
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Chris,

When will the HPF Charge Pipe w/ BOV be released? The preview tease was over a year ago if I recall correctly.


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      10-06-2011, 10:43 PM   #50
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      10-06-2011, 11:02 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzenno View Post
Southbend clutches rock...I heard this is a Southbend make as well..
yup they sure do! my clutchnet red in still holding strong and will see the drag strip for the 1st time tomorrow.

next clutch will be SB for sure. even for my e36 a SB clutch/PP setup will cost a grand.
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      10-07-2011, 05:40 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
If you apply your logic to your clutch replacing the stock clutch, wouldn't you also have to replace the stock flywheel at the same time (as it has previously mated to the OEM clutch)? Or would you recommend to at least have the OEM flywheel resanded?

Alpina_B3_Lux
Bump for an answer to that question.
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      10-07-2011, 08:13 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
It has to do with rotational inertia of the fly wheel. Read up on it.

EDIT:

Aah, wth: Here is the quick and dirty explanation:

For high torque output: use big valves, long equal length intake runners, heavier flywheel
For high horsepower output: use smaller valves, shorter intake runners, lighter flywheel
Ok...the motor makes what the motor makes. Irrespective of what you put behind it. You don't "lose" torque for putting a light flywheel on in the same way that you don't "gain" HP for doing the same. While you are correct in that the inertia of the FW will affect the performance of the motor, not in manner you're describing.

The advantage of a light fly is motor responsiveness. You'll see it rev quicker as it doesn't have as much mass to fling around. Less rotational mass is good. However, it will also drop revs quicker, which could result in some sloppy shifting until you get used to it as you may find your motor dropping below the point in which it should engage the next gear. Depending on your application (in how you intend to use the car) this may be a good option for you. Road racing for example.

A heavier flywheel will keep those revs up higher, longer than a lighter variant. Where it will take a bit longer to get to that point, the motor will have more motivation to stay at those higher RPMs. This is good for larger vehicles that have a lot of mass to move around. Towing and other heavy duty applications would suffice.

How this applies to the clutch you're using...a heavier FW with a really grabby clutch should seem smoother, again because of the inertia it needs to overcome. The same clutch with a really light FW could be jerky.

In my application (in another car) I have a pretty light FW (9#) with a dual carbon, sprung hub clutch. Very grabby, yes, but I've grown accustomed to it so I can engage it smoothly enough without too much fuss. This is on a rotary, which is very rev happy to begin with.

To say that a heavier FW "gives" you more torque is innacurate. The only way to do that is at the motor itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XPO186 View Post
I'm not really technical, but i'd like you to put it in layman's terms for me.

Btw, that doesn't explain anything. All that is is a recommendation with no rational or reasoning behind it.
Hope that helps a bit more.
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      10-07-2011, 08:30 AM   #54
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Railgun,

All this is correct and I agree with it!

You forget however that the flywheel is attached directly to the crankshaft. The more weight you have in the crankshaft, the more rotational inertia the engine has. Torque is just that: amount of force applied over a length of distance. If you reduce the weight of the flywheel, you are reducing the amount of torque it is exerting on the clutch and the drivetrain components.

P.S.: Ever heard of knife edging the crankshaft?
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      10-07-2011, 09:13 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
If you apply your logic to your clutch replacing the stock clutch, wouldn't you also have to replace the stock flywheel at the same time (as it has previously mated to the OEM clutch)? Or would you recommend to at least have the OEM flywheel resanded?

Alpina_B3_Lux
I would resurface the flywheel for every clutch change. It makes the marriage of both components perfect and smooth.
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      10-07-2011, 09:53 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
Railgun,

You forget however that the flywheel is attached directly to the crankshaft. The more weight you have in the crankshaft, the more rotational inertia the engine has.

Torque is just that: amount of force applied over a length of distance. If you reduce the weight of the flywheel, you are reducing the amount of torque it is exerting on the clutch and the drivetrain components.

P.S.: Ever heard of knife edging the crankshaft?
Knifing in the grand scheme of things doesn't do THAT much. The amount of weight removed is negligible....maybe 5% depending on what you're starting with. But, that still has nothing to do with torque. It's also for cutting through oil and the air, but there's very little gain in doing it...not enough to warrant the work.

Now, on to the rest...

No.

Torque does not change. The amount of torque that's applied is static based on the rating of the motor. HORSEPOWER changes (work over time). ACCELERATION changes (rate of change of speed). FORCE changes (mass x acceleration).

If you reduce the inertia of the FW, you are INCREASING force because you INCREASE acceleration which causes an INCREASE in power.

You are not reducing anything to torque. Torque never changes.
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      10-07-2011, 10:00 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyong View Post
I would resurface the flywheel for every clutch change. It makes the marriage of both components perfect and smooth.
Is it possible to resurface a dual mass flywheel? Chris did HPF resurface the 135i's FW before installing your clutch?
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      10-07-2011, 10:07 AM   #58
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I think I stand corrected! I was confusing angular moment vs angular momentum. Mixing up the two is not difficult.

Torque is angular moment. It is r * F, where r is radius (more properly, displacement vector) and F is force.

Angular momentum is r * p, where p is linear momentum.

Sorry for stirring up the mud.
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      10-07-2011, 10:34 AM   #59
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      10-07-2011, 11:43 AM   #60
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Thanks for clarifying things guys! This is really helpful to understand when shopping for a new clutch/flywheel combo.

So it seems like a lwfw would improve responsiveness and make the motor "rev happy" as many ppl have stated. However, there should also be a little bit of a learning curve involved since you're changing shifting characteristics of your car. Might effect daily drivability for some performance benefit that may not carry over well to the street.
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      10-07-2011, 12:52 PM   #61
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It's a bit of an overexaggeration in regards to the shift characteristics. Would they change, yes, but as it translates to not being streetable, I wouldn't say so, however, YMMV.

Where I probably wouldn't mind, you may. Unfortunately in most cases, a change like this is hard to test drive.
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      10-07-2011, 03:52 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
It's a bit of an overexaggeration in regards to the shift characteristics. Would they change, yes, but as it translates to not being streetable, I wouldn't say so, however, YMMV.

Where I probably wouldn't mind, you may. Unfortunately in most cases, a change like this is hard to test drive.
The benefits to the heavy factory flywheel is #1) transmission noise elimination, #2) dampening during clutch engagement, #3) launching. A lightweight aluminum flywheel will not change how the clutch engages. You typically see a 20rwhp/20ft-lbs increase in power and torque when dropping 10 lbs off the flywheel. This is that is at "every" rpm, not just peak. The transmission can make a rattle sound at idle and with the AC on can often sound like a diesel truck with a lightweight flywheel. This is normal and doesn't hurt anything. The other disadvantage is heat resistance as the aluminum flywheel can warp under heat and won't dissipate heat as quickly as the dual mass OEM flywheel. The problem with heat is that the clutch disk and pressure plate can get too hot. The pressure plate can lose clamp load under extreme heat and the disk can fuse to the flywheel. Bronze clutches have a much lower melting point and will often fuse to aluminum flywheels if they are pushed too hard. The reason heavier flywheels help launches at the drag strip is because the engine has that extra weight spinning at higher rpms. When the clutch is engaged, this extra rotational inertia helps keep the engine at the higher rpm while getting out of the hole. When you are drag racing and the rpms drop too low, the engine will often bog especially if you have great traction.

In most cases, the factory OEM flywheel will not need to be resurfaced the first time you run an aftermarket clutch such as ours. This is because the OEM organic material creates very little wear on the flywheel. If you've run an aftermarket clutch already, be sure to check the flywheel very closely for grooves and any sign of wear as this wear will increase the break-in time and cause extra wear on the new clutch as it breaks in.

Chris.
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      10-07-2011, 04:06 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF Chris View Post
That is coming.
HPF has been saying that for 2 years. Quit talking and prove it.
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      10-07-2011, 04:10 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF Chris View Post
The benefits to the heavy factory flywheel is #1) transmission noise elimination, #2) dampening during clutch engagement, #3) launching. A lightweight aluminum flywheel will not change how the clutch engages. You typically see a 20rwhp/20ft-lbs increase in power and torque when dropping 10 lbs off the flywheel. This is that is at "every" rpm, not just peak. The transmission can make a rattle sound at idle and with the AC on can often sound like a diesel truck with a lightweight flywheel. This is normal and doesn't hurt anything. The other disadvantage is heat resistance as the aluminum flywheel can warp under heat and won't dissipate heat as quickly as the dual mass OEM flywheel. The problem with heat is that the clutch disk and pressure plate can get too hot. The pressure plate can lose clamp load under extreme heat and the disk can fuse to the flywheel. Bronze clutches have a much lower melting point and will often fuse to aluminum flywheels if they are pushed too hard. The reason heavier flywheels help launches at the drag strip is because the engine has that extra weight spinning at higher rpms. When the clutch is engaged, this extra rotational inertia helps keep the engine at the higher rpm while getting out of the hole. When you are drag racing and the rpms drop too low, the engine will often bog especially if you have great traction.

In most cases, the factory OEM flywheel will not need to be resurfaced the first time you run an aftermarket clutch such as ours. This is because the OEM organic material creates very little wear on the flywheel. If you've run an aftermarket clutch already, be sure to check the flywheel very closely for grooves and any sign of wear as this wear will increase the break-in time and cause extra wear on the new clutch as it breaks in.

Chris.
Good post.
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      10-08-2011, 12:40 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF Chris View Post
The benefits to the heavy factory flywheel is #1) transmission noise elimination, #2) dampening during clutch engagement, #3) launching. A lightweight aluminum flywheel will not change how the clutch engages. You typically see a 20rwhp/20ft-lbs increase in power and torque when dropping 10 lbs off the flywheel. This is that is at "every" rpm, not just peak. The transmission can make a rattle sound at idle and with the AC on can often sound like a diesel truck with a lightweight flywheel. This is normal and doesn't hurt anything. The other disadvantage is heat resistance as the aluminum flywheel can warp under heat and won't dissipate heat as quickly as the dual mass OEM flywheel. The problem with heat is that the clutch disk and pressure plate can get too hot. The pressure plate can lose clamp load under extreme heat and the disk can fuse to the flywheel. Bronze clutches have a much lower melting point and will often fuse to aluminum flywheels if they are pushed too hard. The reason heavier flywheels help launches at the drag strip is because the engine has that extra weight spinning at higher rpms. When the clutch is engaged, this extra rotational inertia helps keep the engine at the higher rpm while getting out of the hole. When you are drag racing and the rpms drop too low, the engine will often bog especially if you have great traction.

In most cases, the factory OEM flywheel will not need to be resurfaced the first time you run an aftermarket clutch such as ours. This is because the OEM organic material creates very little wear on the flywheel. If you've run an aftermarket clutch already, be sure to check the flywheel very closely for grooves and any sign of wear as this wear will increase the break-in time and cause extra wear on the new clutch as it breaks in.

Chris.
Well, I wasn't suggesting that how the clutch engages would change, rather how the motor responds to the lighter FW when engaging, especially one that may bite harder. The "feel" will change from the perspective of the driver.

I agree that a street car drag racing, a heavier FW is beneficial. What I wouldn't agree with is the heat issue with an Al FW. As I've mentioned, I've run many track days with my Al FW and never have I had an issue thats been clutch related. I've run with this FW for the last eight years. Pure street driving with the occasional romp would even be less of an issue. The occasional pass down the strip falls in the same bucket...3 shifts and you take a break.
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      10-10-2011, 05:04 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railgun View Post
Well, I wasn't suggesting that how the clutch engages would change, rather how the motor responds to the lighter FW when engaging, especially one that may bite harder. The "feel" will change from the perspective of the driver.

I agree that a street car drag racing, a heavier FW is beneficial. What I wouldn't agree with is the heat issue with an Al FW. As I've mentioned, I've run many track days with my Al FW and never have I had an issue thats been clutch related. I've run with this FW for the last eight years. Pure street driving with the occasional romp would even be less of an issue. The occasional pass down the strip falls in the same bucket...3 shifts and you take a break.
I burnt through 17 clutches in my Supra with about 20-50 passes on each clutch variation before we discovered the Feramic material. The aluminum flywheel was the cause of most of the failures. The clutches would literally get too hot and fuse. This was because of the poor heat dissipation of the flywheel and the flywheel warpage under extreme heat. This was with 500rwhp at the beginning to 800rwhp before I went auto and over 1,000rwhp.

We can run a turbo large enough to make these numbers in the 335i with our turbo kit, but we have a few more parts to make first.

Chris.

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