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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Procede v5 Aggressive Map AFR: Fact and Fiction



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      10-21-2011, 07:23 PM   #1
shiv@vishnu
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Exclamation Procede v5 Aggressive Map AFR: Fact and Fiction

This applies to all Rev2.5 and Rev3s running the new beta Aggressive maps.

Today, I was remotely working with a dyno operator in Canada. He was testing the new aggressive maps (Stg3 Upgraded turbo to be precise) on a 6MT running FBO and Turbo Dynamics turbos. Never actually tested any TD turbos since most people either run upgrades from RB or ASR. Learned a few things and will probably have specific maps for them soon since they are noticeably different that RB/ASR turbos. They seem to max out a lower power level @ 17-18psi. Running them at a higher boost pressure doesn't result in more peak power. Just more midrange torque. Typical of a maxed out turbo. But they seem to spool VERY quickly. Noticeably quicker than RB/ASR from what I can tell so far. On a Dynapack dyno, where a stock 335 makes 260-265whp, these turbos maxed out at 480whp@17.5psi. Which should be about 490-500whp on a traditional Dynojet. I'll post up dyno graphs once the car is fully dialed-in. But torque is already ~520lbft

But one thing that is worth showing now is an AFR vs Boost trace of the first run on the dyno (Map1, no meth) before ANY custom tuning. The Motec wideband was located in the tailpipe and the car was cat-less. This is also a load bearing dyno and was set up to ramp-up at 1000rpm every 2 seconds. Which means the run was a 10 seconds long (quite a bit longer than a 4th gear pull on a dynojet).



Even during spool-up with upgraded turbos, AFR was 12.5-13:1. And then stays in the 11.8-12.7 range from then onwards. Perfectly on target. Richest at peak target/max torque. And the car made 410whp on this first run which isn't bad for 13-14psi at peak power

There were a few forum members making pretty uninformed claims recently. One claim was that the Procede can't retard enough timing to run high boost in the low end/midrange without running into "problems". This has been proven wrong several times over in the last few weeks since the new Aggressive maps were released. Another claim was that the Procede wasn't able to control fuel well enough to support high boost pressures in the low-end and midrange. Also shown to be misinformation.

What's more is that now the Procede can transition smoothly between fuel maps and two sets of ignition map (high octane and low octane) as a function of octane/meth flow. This means consistent fuel trims which result in consistent ignition advance. This means no post-shift timing drops, maximum consistent power and just good all-around drivability with absolutely no compromise to safety margin. In other words the Procede can change fuel injector flow and ignition advance, while driving, by up to +/- 20% and +2/-9 deg of timing respectively. Pretty neat stuff unique to this platform that we have been developing for the last 5 years.

And for reference, here is the Procede datalog of the same run:


Interesting enough, when reading unfiltered/raw AFR data so close to the engine, in a single bank (just 3 cylinders), you can see see the effects of exhaust pulsation at lower engine speeds (rich/lean sawtooth pattern). But once the two banks banks merge and the exhaust flow turbulate a bit, you get a smoother trace at the tailpipe (as read by Motec sensor). We may end up applying a small smoothing function for AFR logs to quiet down this noise.

Shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 10-21-2011 at 07:58 PM.
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      10-21-2011, 07:34 PM   #2
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I'd probably remove the "fact and fiction" part of the title just to avoid inviting the war lol

Looks pretty good to me. Interesting to hear how the TD turbos differ from RB's. Keep us updated!
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      10-21-2011, 07:39 PM   #3
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Is there a log to go with with this AFR/Boost trace?(IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM AM I ASKING FOR A F*CKING WAR HERE, I'D JUST LIKE TO SEE A LOG) i really hope this thread remains purely informational. I, for one, am here to learn.
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      10-21-2011, 07:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rader1 View Post
Is there a log to go with with this AFR/Boost trace?(IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM AM I ASKING FOR A F*CKING WAR HERE, I'D JUST LIKE TO SEE A LOG) i really hope this thread remains purely informational. I, for one, am here to learn.
Good idea I updated the first post with the log of that first run. Luckily, it was also emailed to me.
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      10-21-2011, 08:06 PM   #5
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im nothing but happy with the new maps..its the first time ive ever been apprehensive/scared to go wot and feeling the rear end wanting to come un-glued..theres no way to keep gription hahahahaha
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      10-21-2011, 08:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brey335i View Post
I'd probably remove the "fact and fiction" part of the title just to avoid inviting the war lol

Looks pretty good to me. Interesting to hear how the TD turbos differ from RB's. Keep us updated!
There is definitely no invitation to anyone who wants to start a "war". But anyone wanting to discuss tech without trying to promote a personal agenda is more than welcome to participate. The problem with a few select war-mongers is that they aren't knowledgeable enough to be able to separate fact from fiction. And/or they often aren't willing to back down when they are presented with info/fact that doesn't support their often misinformed argument. I'm afraid that my personal weakness is the inability to "agree to disagree", especially when these parties tend to make things personal. Which is always the case when someone can't debate on a purely factual basis. And being a vendor who makes by having informed customers, I don't have the luxury of letting misinformation being spread on the forum. While this often looks like I'm being "hostile" or "argumentative", I can assure you that my intentions are, and have always been, in the right place. To inform, not to obfuscate as these detractors often accuse me of. I think if people were more willing to lean/discuss and less willing to fight/detract, we'd have a lot more useful information on this forum. For every one person promoting a personal agenda (ie, trying to be a forum hero), there are many otherwise useful threads that devolve into hard-to-follow flame wars. And no one really learns anything from them because of the poor signal-to-noise ratio.

Shiv
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      10-21-2011, 09:58 PM   #7
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Looks great Shiv. It seems most of your forum hero's have been banned. Good riddens. They can go play on poop-boost-.com
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      10-21-2011, 10:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
There is definitely no invitation to anyone who wants to start a "war". But anyone wanting to discuss tech without trying to promote a personal agenda is more than welcome to participate. The problem with a few select war-mongers is that they aren't knowledgeable enough to be able to separate fact from fiction. And/or they often aren't willing to back down when they are presented with info/fact that doesn't support their often misinformed argument. I'm afraid that my personal weakness is the inability to "agree to disagree", especially when these parties tend to make things personal. Which is always the case when someone can't debate on a purely factual basis. And being a vendor who makes by having informed customers, I don't have the luxury of letting misinformation being spread on the forum. While this often looks like I'm being "hostile" or "argumentative", I can assure you that my intentions are, and have always been, in the right place. To inform, not to obfuscate as these detractors often accuse me of. I think if people were more willing to lean/discuss and less willing to fight/detract, we'd have a lot more useful information on this forum. For every one person promoting a personal agenda (ie, trying to be a forum hero), there are many otherwise useful threads that devolve into hard-to-follow flame wars. And no one really learns anything from them because of the poor signal-to-noise ratio.

Shiv
+10000000000!!

Shiv speaks the trooth! Read it and weep children.
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      10-21-2011, 10:37 PM   #9
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All of the other aggressive logs I've seen have been using meth. I'm excited to see that these maps dont require it.
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      10-21-2011, 11:11 PM   #10
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I am loving every second of this! Keep it coming man!
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      10-22-2011, 12:10 AM   #11
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Send a message via AIM to Jeff@TopGearSolutions
Looks good
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      10-22-2011, 03:32 AM   #12
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whoa, so far so good... keep it up!
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      10-22-2011, 05:13 AM   #13
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For comparison, I did some dynos back in June on a Dynapack. This included a 100% stock dyno with Procede removed:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=549854

My AFRs were leaner but you will notice that the AFRs were actually leaner stock than with the Procede. This was on 12-17 Maps so quite a bit has changed. I plan to go back for another Dyno with Rev 3, Helix IC, and Downpipes installed.
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      10-22-2011, 07:25 AM   #14
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Were these the stage 1 turbos with just the one side upgraded?
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      10-22-2011, 10:18 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bahn stormer View Post
For comparison, I did some dynos back in June on a Dynapack. This included a 100% stock dyno with Procede removed:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=549854

My AFRs were leaner but you will notice that the AFRs were actually leaner stock than with the Procede. This was on 12-17 Maps so quite a bit has changed. I plan to go back for another Dyno with Rev 3, Helix IC, and Downpipes installed.
Yep exactly. Looking forward to seeing your Rev3 results now that you have more mds.

shiv
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      10-22-2011, 10:22 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottp999 View Post
Were these the stage 1 turbos with just the one side upgraded?
I hope so... Kinda sucks if those were stage 2 like mine considering how much they costed. From what TD told me stage 2 are based on td4L-15T.
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      10-22-2011, 10:23 AM   #17
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DI engine should not run too rich. Running too rich delays spooling and increases emissions and fuel consumption unnecessarily.
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      10-22-2011, 10:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
I hope so... Kinda sucks if those were stage 2 like mine considering how much they costed. From what TD told me stage 2 are based on td4L-15T.
You have been running those so long that you should know your WHP? Are you saying you don't know...?
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      10-22-2011, 10:33 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
I hope so... Kinda sucks if those were stage 2 like mine considering how much they costed. From what TD told me stage 2 are based on td4L-15T.
I was communicating with the shop operator, not the owner of the car. So I'm not certain which TD turbo it was. But I was under the impression of it being the full CHRA upgrade versions due to the power it made. I can't imagine a compressor-only upgrade making that kind of power at that relatively low boost pressure. ~500whp (dynojet) at ~18psi of boost? The only thing different about it compared to say, the ASR turbo, is that it didn't hold as much power to redline all other things equal. But peak power was at 6000rpm. So by no means did it peak early and fall off a cliff.

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 10-22-2011 at 10:49 AM.
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      10-22-2011, 10:44 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
You have been running those so long that you should know your WHP? Are you saying you don't know...?
Not that long considering all the downtime i had.....
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      10-22-2011, 10:49 AM   #21
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Shiv, ETA on public release of these agressive maps?
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      10-22-2011, 10:52 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
I hope so... Kinda sucks if those were stage 2 like mine considering how much they costed. From what TD told me stage 2 are based on td4L-15T.
Hello enrita, I'm the owner off the car and yes its turbo dynamics stage 2. The run its made with 80/20 meth and 1/4 94 oct and 1/4 ms 109 vp. The meth system that we have is labonte and i think the flow is not enough, we have to take another systeme.

Big tank for shiv for the amazing service. We will do another run with the new meth systeme shiv, so my tuner dynodoc ( Brady) will contact you.

Excuse me for my english, i'm french.

Shiv do you think can we do close to 500whp on the dynopack?
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