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      11-10-2011, 10:13 AM   #45
davyk31
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Originally Posted by kaishang View Post
You don't find the idea of trawling through eBay, driving to pick up the secondhand rims and inspecting them or taking time off work to wait for them to be delivered and taking some risk they may not be as they are descrbed, ordering tyres from a separate place, taking time off work again to wait for them to be delivered, taking the tyres and the rims to a tyre fitter etc a lot of work? Plus the additional work of selling your used rims and part-worn tyres on eBay all over again when you dispose of your car?

You must have a lot of time on your hands.

Again winter tyre proponents are not comparing like-for-like costs. Your BMW came with OEM rims and performance summer RFT tyres. A like-for-like comparison would be performance winter RFT tyres and new BMW OEM rims. These cost 1,600.

I watched a few sets of wheels on Ebay in my evening time, purchased an OEM set which was delivered to me, believe it or not I was actually able to go to work on that day and did not need a day off. I purchased tyres online, again in my leisure time, got them delivered, amazingly was also able to work that day. Then got the tyres fitted, this did use at minimum 30 mins of my time.
Sold them all again recently to a forum member, very simple and flawless transaction which again did not take up much of my time. Courier collected the wheels at 7.00pm on a Friday again causing no inconvenience.
Maybe I was just lucky but all seemed very little hassle and not time consuming...............
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      11-10-2011, 10:14 AM   #46
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Statler you have a very sensible viewpoint to the whole issue, and it also doesn't seem to have cost you 1600 either.
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      11-10-2011, 10:33 AM   #47
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I wish I could get a set for the F10 that wouldn'r cost 1600
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      11-10-2011, 11:07 AM   #48
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Dp they do 19" Winter tyres!?
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      11-10-2011, 11:10 AM   #49
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Dp they do 19" Winter tyres!?
Yes!!

Eye-wateringly expensive though.
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      11-10-2011, 11:12 AM   #50
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really?
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      11-10-2011, 11:53 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
-Bottom line is that in MY opinion MY family and loved ones are better protected against the extremes with winter tyres fitted and for that assurance I would pay any amount of money, end of for me.
This is my view, having a 3 month old baby means you spend 800 on a set of winter wheels for their safety instead of 800 on some CSL reps for your ego......
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      11-10-2011, 11:59 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
really?
Really - to the point I bought a set of 17's with tyres for less than the 19's themselves, only ones I could find (that were actually in stock) were Dunlop 3D's at 305rr and 275fr. Vredestein do the sizes and they're about 260/230 respectively, but you try and buy the fackers.
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      11-10-2011, 12:04 PM   #53
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Do they not make 19" winter tyres then?
I think the nearest are 265/30 instead of 255/30
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      11-10-2011, 12:22 PM   #54
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Would need 285 and 255
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      11-10-2011, 02:45 PM   #55
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I bought 19s for my X5, 255x50 and 285x45 Vredestein Wintracs, all for approx 650, not too bad I reckoned, the summer 20" tyres are much more expensive!!
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      11-10-2011, 04:31 PM   #56
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double post, thanks BT!
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      11-10-2011, 04:35 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
Statler you have a very sensible viewpoint to the whole issue, and it also doesn't seem to have cost you 1600 either.
Considering the kids could play ice hockey in the yard (on skates...) for 10 days last winter, with any luck, less than 500 on a decent tyre.

I take the point on family safety and my kids are in the car every day. If it's the only car that will move us when the weather gets that bad then it's a small price to pay.
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      11-11-2011, 08:09 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by SelSol View Post
Cept the three months of sub zero conditions we had last winter....because you know, when its sub zero, its not rain, physics fail.
Sorry Einstein, can you please point me to any data that suggests we have 3 months of subzero temperatures a year? Perhaps these made up kind of figures have convinced you that you require winter tyres. A small weather department (you may have heard of them - The Met Office?) suggests that the average temperatures (taken over a period of 30 years) in the Midlands is:

Dec:
Max - 7.6c Min - 1.2c

Jan:
Max - 6.9c Min - 1.2c

Feb:
Max - 7.2c Min - 1.2c

Perhaps it's just my eyes, but i'm not seeing this 3 months of subzero temperatures you were talking about? Who knows, maybe it's because you pulled it from your arse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelSol View Post
I have several issues with this post:

1) When did californians become the smartest people on earth
2) Germany and most of eastern europe experiences similar weather conditions to us, hence the relevance
3) Geography Fail. Do you really think you need the same tyres in Finland that you do in South Africa? Really? Really?
4) Please re-read post 3. I know technically its a repeat but its such a big fail I wanted to mention it twice.
Ok, my mistake - i overestimated your intelligence and ability to understand satire or sarcasm. So i'll explain:

You were saying how countries like Austria, Finland, Germany, Slovenia needed winter tyres by law. These places have a vastly different climate (apart from Germany) which is often much colder and has much more snow. Hence my sarcastic post saying about how everyone in a hot climate has summer tyres. Both comments are irrelevant - the only difference is that my post was designed to show how irrelevant your post was.

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Originally Posted by SelSol View Post
Anyways, like I give a crap if you think I wasted 500 on a set of wheels and tyres, its not like I can't afford it.
No, i didn't think you did. If it got to you that much, you would have written a massive post back to me about how i was wrong.

Oh wait...

BTW - you still didn't address my posts about the two tyre tests that reported that winter tyres, in cold, wet conditions are significantly worse than a midrange, 2 generation old tyre. Any reason for this?

Last edited by Subzero2003; 11-11-2011 at 09:05 AM.
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      11-11-2011, 08:11 AM   #59
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Spot the sulkers who can't afford the winter tyres
Haha, good argument. Instead of actually admitting to yourself that you've paid 500 for a set of tyres that offer the same kind of performance as a set of Linglong's in the wet, you've gone along the line of saying that everyone else can't afford them.

Niceee
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      11-11-2011, 08:12 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
Bottom line is that in MY opinion MY family and loved ones are better protected against the extremes with winter tyres fitted and for that assurance I would pay any amount of money, end of for me.
What about the non extreme conditions? You've got worse tyres for 90% of the time, just to protect you against the 10% of the time when they're better. How does that make any kind of logical sense?
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      11-11-2011, 08:28 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I do think you are cherry picking results, I could do the same, and get a different bias on tyre choice.
Firstly, thanks for being the only one to actually discuss the results and not just brush off them.

Anyway please feel free to cherry pick your own results to support your point that winters are better in wet conditions then a pair of UHP summer tyres.

Good luck - because as far as i know, these don't exist.

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Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
You mention in another place, the difference between UHP summer wet braking distances and the Conti used in the test. Saying you'd expect better from a UHP tyre. Even there we can cherry pick from data. I've seen a controlled test where a Bridgestone Turanza was a better wet braker than the 'winning' Goodyear F1 Asymmetric, so we compromise anyway. We'd give away the better wet braking, for the overall package and performance across the board, of the Goodyear.
The vast majority of tests show that the Goodyear F1 Asymmetric is better in almost every single area than a strictly midrange Turanza. I could waste my time showing all of the other tests that support my point that the F1's would be better than the Turanza's - but you already know i'm right about this.

Like i said, i would invite you to post up results or a test showing that winters are better in cold wet conditions than a set of UHP summers. The only tests i could find that tested winters vs summers in all conditions (dry, wet, snow, ice) supported my point that the Winters were left significantly trailing over midrange summers.

It's not like i found a bunch of other tests that supported your point and decided not to post them - the evidence for the point you are trying to make, simply doesn't exist, to my knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Don't you think dwelling on wet braking distances at the higher range of winter tyre temperature tests is only part of the picture?
It is only part of the picture - but it is the biggest part of the picture. As i've said previously, our winters are traditionally much more wet and windy than snowy and icey. Therefore, wet weather performance should be a more important category when choosing a set of tyres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Choosing tyres is a set of compromises anyway, we set priorities for what we need in our driving conditions.
I agree, i have compromised the 4-5 days a winter when the roads are snowy for maximum performance for the other 80 days when the roads are just wet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Emergency stops from higher speeds is only one of many key factors.
The second test i posted showed that a midrange summer tyre ran rings around a Michelins best winter tyre at stopping from 40mph AND 60mph. How much slower do you want them to be testing from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
What we have to allow for is the sudden drop in temperatures, which often we don't get too much warning off, for me that is often in 3 -5 miles of driving.
You are in the highlands of Scotland. Therefore, your set of circumstances are vastly different to most other people on here. I can totally see why you would fit winters to your car - 100%.

But for someone living in a small town in the middle of England? Fitting winter tyres when it's still 10-15c outside?

Come on. If summers are braking better at 4c in the wet, there will be absolutely no competition at 10-15c.
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      11-11-2011, 08:56 AM   #62
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So, last winter, in Belfast, where it rarely snows, I drove, sorry, slipped my way to work at 20mph on main roads because of the permafrost that sat on the surface. My lovely 19" bridgestone SUMMER tyres were bugger all use. They clogged with snow and the rubber when as hard as a brick.
So you remember the day you slipped back to work on snow? Do you perhaps remember the number of days where you drove back from work and the road was wet and your HP Bridgestones were silently providing you with far more grip than winter tyres would have done? No - didn't think so.

And i've just thought - my posts in this and other winter tyres thread are comparing the midrange CPC2's to THE BEST winter tyres let alone the "Nankang" or "Sunny" winter tyre offerings! The chap in the other thread was wondering whether he should fit Sunny winters. Now, these are likely to be even worse than the Nankang winters, and just LOOK at the results of the Nankang tyres in my post:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=21
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      11-11-2011, 09:35 AM   #63
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Mate I've got photos some where of a temp gauge reading -18 deg C....

At Cromer last Xmas we had a Job and it was -22
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      11-11-2011, 10:19 AM   #64
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Mate I've got photos some where of a temp gauge reading -18 deg C....

At Cromer last Xmas we had a Job and it was -22
No doubt you do - I've got a photo of where my car was reading -10.5c last year. But there are always anomalies like this - this is why AVERAGES are important and not extremes. People here are only focussing on the extreme weather and extreme temperatures.

I'm sure there is probably data to show that it's been 15-20c before in December sometime over the past 30 years, doesn't mean it's like that every year though does it? The October had temperatures that reached 30c - when the average October temperature is 13.9c. Does that mean i should go shopping for extra summer gear next year in anticipation for another 30c October? Obviously not.

It's just the same for this. People don't seem to be able to remember any further back that about 2 years ago. Last year was the coldest December the UK has experienced in 100 YEARS and the second coldest in 350 YEARS!

Interestingly, it was also the 3rd driest December since records began. Dry weather and winter tyres = lol.

Last edited by Subzero2003; 11-11-2011 at 10:25 AM.
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      11-11-2011, 10:49 AM   #65
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Often being site based and working outside at night for 8 years now, EVERY winter over those 8 years all over East Anglia it's been sub-zero. Often as low as -5/-6
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      11-11-2011, 01:11 PM   #66
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No doubt you do - I've got a photo of where my car was reading -10.5c last year. But there are always anomalies like this - this is why AVERAGES are important and not extremes. People here are only focussing on the extreme weather and extreme temperatures.
You really haven't got a clue about real world driving (or statistal analysis for that matter) have you? Ice on a winter morning is not a (mean) anomoly, its commonplace, it may well be above zero for 14 hours a day, but that still leaves the other 10, during which many of us are driving. The daily average is often above freezing, but if your morning commute is in sub zero, it doesn't matter if the rest of the day is 40C.

Extremes of tyre performance are critical, for example, the one time you call upon a tyre to exert its every last ounce of grip, is in an emergency stop, a situation which occurs maybe only a couple of times a year. So by your logic, emergency stopping isn't important, when the reality is that it couldn't be more important, because to underperform at the extreme, could lead to death.

You've totally failed to augment the fact I live in the fens where road conditions are poor, and many roads don't get gritted, many roads here have a ten foot drop into dykes which, if you fall into them, you'll never get out of unless someone sees you. Someone dies every year round here because of that. I do, on average, 150 miles a day, and to not do those miles would mean a personal loss of some 400 a day. Two days being unable to work would be sufficient to pay for my wheels and tyres in their entirety, when you factpr in re-use and resale, the cost if no concern, they pay for themselves by allowing me to work. Presumably you don't have your own business so you don't give a crap whether you get there or not. Call me crazy, but after 15 years, an IAM certificate, an honours in Mech Eng, and several years in the motorsport industry, I think I'm grown up enough to make my own decisions.

My families life is considerably more precious than a who's-right-who's-wrong internet argument, so say what you want, its of no consequence to me.
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