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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK Technical Forum > 17" Winter tyres - yes again, sorry!



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      11-11-2011, 04:18 PM   #67
davyk31
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It only takes one incident that is avoided to make the winters worth their weight in gold therefore perhaps only one cold morning where the winters help me or my family avoid an accident.

Think its been a while Subzero since I reckoned you were an a**e, you have gone far beyond that now. You seem unable to accept that others do not agree with you, grow up and give it a rest mate................. but no doubt you won't !!!!
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      11-11-2011, 05:50 PM   #68
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I think we do have to make a judgement on the evidence put before us from the tyre and safety organizations.

Even if we are sceptical, when the BTMA's technical advisory committee state that winter tyres are better under 7-degrees (even in the wet) and this is a result of their testing, we do need to pay at least a little attention.

I'm very well aware we are getting some test results, which are indicating there may be some variations in the findings, as they are conducted by the various magazines. But what we don't know is, how all these tests are evaluated, even set up. It doesn't mean any are wrong or misleading, but may not all be from a standard baseline.

Something as simple as a different pressure setting can change the braking, so where do we get the exact test data from, for how a tyre was compared?

What does appear to be consistent, the tyre manufacturers and all the safety agencies seem to agree the benefits are there for winter tyre performance, and do show distinct safety advantages, over running summer tyres in the same winter conditions.

What we all know, there isn't one tyre that does everything, there has to be compromises, if we want to cope with the extremes.

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      11-11-2011, 06:43 PM   #69
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From the review that you linked Subzero, did you not read the first page of results?

Braking distance on Snow from 25mph

Quote:
Originally Posted by What Car
Even the worst winter tyre, the budget Nankang Snow SV-2, pulled up a massive 11 metres shorter than the best summer tyre in the test.
1 - Nil Winter vs Summer - Pretty obvious result, its what winter tyres are designed for

Braking distance on Ice from 12mph(!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by What Car
The average stopping distance of the winter tyres was 12.5 metres, while the summer equivalents took an extra 6.5 metres to bring the car to a halt
2 - Nil Winter vs Summer - again, pretty much as expected, but it takes twice as far to stop on ice at a paltry 12mph on even the best summer tyre!

Traction on snow and the snow handling are as expected, with massive wins for winter tyres, so 4 - Nil

Wet Braking from 50mph


Another win for winters of summer, only the Nankangs letting the side down

5 - Nil

Aquaplaning - note that the temp was 11 degrees, outside the optimal temp for Winters


Another win for winters imo, outside its temp range yet still performed better overall than summers, 6 - Nil

Wet Handling

Quote:
Originally Posted by What Car
The winter tyres took two of the top three positions, with generally better steering feedback. However, Continentals summer tyre the ContiPremiumContact2 surprisingly topped the score sheet in every area. This is possibly because the average temperature during this test was 5C, which is just within the temperature threshold recommended for winter tyres. Continental says in-house tests have shown its winter tyre outperforms its summer tyre below around 2C
7 - Nil

Dry testing - uh oh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by What Car
Our dry test measured braking from 62mph. The temperature during the test averaged 5.5C, yet the summer tyres stopped our Volkswagen Golf test car earlier in an average of 37.9 metres. The winter tyres took an average of 5.8 metres longer to pull up, and even the worst of the summer tyres the Nankang Ultra Sport NS-2 outperformed the best winter tyre, the Continental ContiWinterContact TS 830.

Its clear that winter tyres dont always offer better stopping performance in sub-7C conditions. Bear in mind, though, that youre much more likely to be involved in an accident on wet roads
7 - 1 but bear in mind that the winter is wet at the least, snow at the worst

the winter before last was my first in my BMW. It snowed and I got stuck on a gentle slope. If it settled on the road, my car was going nowhere. My car ended up stuck on my drive as I couldnt get out of my estate. I lost a weeks holiday as I couldnt do my job so resolved to buy winter tyres and be prepared for next year.

It snowed again last year, even worse than the year before, with 5 inches of snow sitting on top of compacted snow from the previous day. I made it out without getting stuck. That, to me, was well worth the outlay!

You pays your money an' you make yo choice! I've yet to see anyone, on any forum I read, who has bought winter tyres, say that they are a waste of money and they dont rate them. The only naysayers are those that have never used them or seen the need to buy them.

I won't go back to using summers in winter as for me, the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

Last edited by jimmylimmy; 11-12-2011 at 04:23 AM.
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      11-12-2011, 03:40 AM   #70
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Dry testing is quite irrelevant. How often are the roads dry in winter, even if it isn't raining there is always a heavy morning dew when most of us are going to work.
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      11-12-2011, 06:58 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
Dry testing is quite irrelevant. How often are the roads dry in winter, even if it isn't raining there is always a heavy morning dew when most of us are going to work.
Also we can't go by any daytime temperature averages either. Most of us will be driving at lower than average daytime temperatures where the critical zones have most impact, near dawn and dusk.

We also need to consider tyre tread depths, something missing in most of the tyre test data, we need to amend the thinking for wearing tyres.

I'm trying to source some winter tyre data for braking performance at different tread depths. We know summer tyres, even in their working range above 7-degrees, can need up to 70% more braking distance over their legal tread life. In my mind, winter tyres should improve as they wear a bit, as there will be less squirm, as the tread blocks become more rigid. Sipes also change characteristics, (hence why less than 4mm becomes less effective on snow and ice). A lot will have do with whether a road is simply damp, or on the water depth.

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      11-12-2011, 07:25 AM   #72
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I already posted the average UK winter maximum AND MINIMUM temperature earlier in this thread, but winter tyre proponents seem to ignore it and keep rehashing the idea that the average winter minimum is subzero. It is not, there is not one single month when the average UK winter minimum temperature is below freezing.

Everyone knows winter tyres work better on snow on ice (although I don't see anyone commenting on it still taking a whopping 12 metres to stop on ice from a puny 12mph even on winters - do you really think taking 3 car lengths to stop from jogging pace is a good result?). The point is, most winters it does not snow. And the test results which are quoted above show performance summer tyres perform better in the dry, better in the wet and better for aquaplaning is what are true typical UK winter conditions, which are a few degrees above freezing.
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      11-12-2011, 07:37 AM   #73
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So to the two posters waging the anti winter tyre campaign DON'T BUY THEM.

I have mine, I know how awful the summer tyres were last year, I can afford the winters and I will post my experiences when I have used them. If they prove to be useless, don't improve grip, dont decrease braking distance, don't allow me to get out of my drive, need my nighbour to push me up the gentle slope at the end of my road as he had to last year and don't allow me to get to work at my place of work (a hospital), then I will post back and admit that I have been conned.

Subzero do you really think that you are the only poster of any intelligence whilst all the pro winter tyre proponents are thick and gullible?
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      11-12-2011, 08:04 AM   #74
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Nobody on this thread has anything against winter tyres, but claims are being made about them which are not supported by evidence: that they are almost zero cost because they reduce wear on your standard tyres and that they work significantly better in the zero to seven degree range.

The like-for-like high perormance RFT winter tyre set is a significant cost and there is negligible difference, with a slight bias favouring summer tyres in typical UK temperatures, including average UK winter night minimums.

Summer tyres are clearly inferior, even dangerous, on ungritted snowed roads.

If claims on these threads about the benefits of winter tyres in 0-7 degree range were consistent with the evidence, there would be no skeptical posts. Or if someone were to say "I am buying winters because the costs of being immobile due to the statistically unlikely event of snow exceed the costs of the tyres", that would also be a reasonable argument.

Saying you are buying winters "because they are better under 7 degrees" is not supported by the evidence.
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      11-12-2011, 08:09 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaishang View Post
I already posted the average UK winter maximum AND MINIMUM temperature earlier in this thread, but winter tyre proponents seem to ignore it and keep rehashing the idea that the average winter minimum is subzero. It is not, there is not one single month when the average UK winter minimum temperature is below freezing.

Everyone knows winter tyres work better on snow on ice (although I don't see anyone commenting on it still taking a whopping 12 metres to stop on ice from a puny 12mph even on winters - do you really think taking 3 car lengths to stop from jogging pace is a good result?). .
Don't get the point of your first paragraph, averages, like any statistics, don't give the whole picture. I lived in the south for over 40-years, IOW, Middlesex and Wiltshire, so know you can have low temperatures and frosts anytime, during any winter. It isn't about sub zero temperatures alone. I worked in the motor trade and we ran a recovery service, so personally know a bit about accident rates in winter. Saw the results of poor winter driving conditions. Latest reports say something like 270% more accidents in winter months than summer, so there is something going wrong, as 'skidding' takes a large share in the accident mix, according to the data.

As to the 12-metre stopping bit, that is again not the whole story. The average summer tyre, if you even gently slow up, will often mean losing control on snow and ice. Compared to the winter tyre doing the exact same slow down, will feel as if there is no snow or ice under you and you keep total control.

I know this from experience in the same conditions. Ive said it before, I've personally tried it, same day different tyre sets, winter's transform the safety margins. It is the difference of feeling you are on the road, rather than packed snow or ice. Summer's, you definitely know you are on the edge, even making slow and gentle moves.

We seem to be hung up on maximum performance, most don't drive like that in any conditions, and adjust for winter driving anyway.

I suppose if we don't include the unexpected, when the UK comes to a halt because of a sudden cold snap, (done so many times over the years) or a bit of freezing weather ditching 1,000 of cars, any where in the UK, then winter tyres aren't worth bothering about.

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      11-12-2011, 08:22 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaishang View Post
Saying you are buying winters "because they are better under 7 degrees" is not supported by the evidence.
This is where I'm having problems myself. I'll agree that some of the tests we see, are looking as if the evidence is poor. But when we dig deeper into the subject, the tyre manufacturers themselves, like Continental, Michelin, Pirelli, Vredestein and others, are clearly saying 'their' tests in the sub 7-degrees range, do give shorter wet braking distances for the winter tyres, even using the 5-degree baseline test figure.

Where is the conflicting evidence coming from? Is there something missing in the data, either from the manufacturers, or the independent tests. MIRA have been used by some manufacturers, so should by nature of who they are, also be unbiased and independent.

There needs to be more clarity and scrutiny, if we are getting conflicting opinion.

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      11-12-2011, 09:04 AM   #77
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Can't help thinking that this thread has got out of hand. I have posted this before but, for my car, which has PS2 18" staggered set up, the difference is between being able to drive up our hill and go to work easily and with no drama on winters. With the PS2s the car is in undriveable in snow/ice. This is my experience driving my car in the real world. If this helps others to choose then great. If you don't want to buy them then don't. Simples!!
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      11-12-2011, 09:07 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
This is where I'm having problems myself. I'll agree that some of the tests we see, are looking as if the evidence is poor. But when we dig deeper into the subject, the tyre manufacturers themselves, like Continental, Michelin, Pirelli, Vredestein and others, are clearly saying 'their' tests in the sub 7-degrees range, do give shorter wet braking distances for the winter tyres, even using the 5-degree baseline test figure.

Where is the conflicting evidence coming from? Is there something missing in the data, either from the manufacturers, or the independent tests. MIRA have been used by some manufacturers, so should by nature of who they are, also be unbiased and independent.

There needs to be more clarity and scrutiny, if we are getting conflicting opinion.

HighlandPete
One thing we can be 100pc sure about is that tyre manufacturers will sell more tyres if people start en-masse buying winter tyres
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      11-12-2011, 12:49 PM   #79
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Are you intentionally misreading the results?

Wet Braking - Winter tyres in 1st, 2nd and 3rd place? Yet you still insist Summer tyres are better in the wet?

Aquaplaning test (done above optimal winter tyre temps), Winter tyre came joint first and third,

The only test that the winters come off worst on is the dry stopping distance.

The FACTS are staring you in the face.... where are the facts to back up your arguements?

What Car verdict

Quote:
Originally Posted by What Car
Our tests prove that winter tyres offer big safety benefits over their summer equivalents not only in snowy and icy conditions, but also in the wet when the temperature dips below 7C.

For that reason wed urge all drivers to consider swapping to winter tyres for the coldest months of the year the six months recommended by many tyre manufacturers are sensible only in colder parts of the UK. Depending on the severity of the winter, drivers in more temperate regions such as the south of England may be better off on summer tyres for up to nine months of the year.
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      11-12-2011, 04:26 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaishang View Post
I already posted the average UK winter maximum AND MINIMUM temperature earlier in this thread, but winter tyre proponents seem to ignore it and keep rehashing the idea that the average winter minimum is subzero. It is not, there is not one single month when the average UK winter minimum temperature is below freezing.
No we don't, we keep stating that freezing conditions are commonplace, there's a huge difference.

If its +4C for 12 hours a day, and -2 for 12 hours a day, the average is +2C, yet there's still 12 hours a day that its freezing. The fact the average temperature is above zero is completely irrelevant.

How do you not get this
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      11-12-2011, 06:20 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SelSol View Post
No we don't, we keep stating that freezing conditions are commonplace, there's a huge difference.

If its +4C for 12 hours a day, and -2 for 12 hours a day, the average is +2C, yet there's still 12 hours a day that its freezing. The fact the average temperature is above zero is completely irrelevant.

How do you not get this
I posted the average MINIMUM temperature, ie the Met Office has taken the coldest - not the average maximum and not the average intraday average- temperature each day to produce the average coldest temp each month of the year. That average coldest temperature is still above freezing.

Here again is the uk climate data: the average COLDEST temperature is 1-2 degrees above freezing in England, Wales and NI all through winter. Only Scotland has an average minimum below zero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate...Kingdom#Winter

Last edited by kaishang; 11-12-2011 at 06:48 PM.
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      11-12-2011, 06:39 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmylimmy View Post
Are you intentionally misreading the results?

Wet Braking - Winter tyres in 1st, 2nd and 3rd place? Yet you still insist Summer tyres are better in the wet?

Aquaplaning test (done above optimal winter tyre temps), Winter tyre came joint first and third,

The only test that the winters come off worst on is the dry stopping distance.

The FACTS are staring you in the face.... where are the facts to back up your arguements?

What Car verdict
Yes, winter tyres had a marginally shorter wet stopping distance but with lower lateral grip (ie you are more likely to go sliding off the road into a tree) and lower overall wet performance, which you have chosen to ignore. As have you ignored the test organisation comment that it was likely to be the deep longitudinal grooves in summer tyres which make them so good at preventing aquaplaning. And the various tests being at 5 or 11C. It is just as likely to be 11C and raining in December as it is to be -10C and snowing.

Also you ignore the What Car comment that Continentals own testing shows that it is +2C not +7C before winter tyres are superior.

But none of this matters to this particular pissing contest: there are no big differences between winter and summer tyres at typical UK winter temperatures even though summer tyres are overall marginally better. The views expressed on this thread that summer tyres become unsafe at 7C and winter tyres are always better are false (along with the view that the average UK winter minimum is below freezing). The data shows the is little difference and it is only when there is snow and ice on the road that winter tyres are far superior.
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      11-12-2011, 08:10 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaishang View Post
I posted the average MINIMUM temperature, ie the Met Office has taken the coldest - not the average maximum and not the average intraday average- temperature each day to produce the average coldest temp each month of the year. That average coldest temperature is still above freezing.

Here again is the uk climate data: the average COLDEST temperature is 1-2 degrees above freezing in England, Wales and NI all through winter. Only Scotland has an average minimum below zero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate...Kingdom#Winter
Yes I can SEE what you posted and I know what it means! You clearly don't understand how these values are obtained!!!!

Please try and understand this: Thats the monthly average, which means it could have been -1C for X days, but +4C on the Y days bringing the average minium above zero. The fact the average coldest temp is above freezing doesn't detract that it still means you've got X days at below zero despite an above freezing average, which is invariably the case in britain. I repeat, how are you not getting this? Its basic statistical analysis taught in GCSE math to 15 year olds.

The very page you link to states clearly that temperatures fluctuate from -10 to +15 only confirms that despite an average temperature of above freezing, there is a significant portion of the winter which is below freezing!!!! Do you even get the concept that commuting hours are, in winter, often outside of direct sunlight, and as a direct result, frequently below freezing. It doesn't matter one jot if its nice and sunny all day if your commute starts at 7am in the dark.

Are you seriously suggestng that throughout december we should expect no weather below 0C? Do you understand how absurd that is? Have you ever been through a december where there's been no ground frost? Growing up on a farm makes you very aware of weather conditions because frosts will kill solanaceous plants. You tend to be clued up on these things when its your livelihood.........

Ocado fit their delivery vans with winter tyres, at a massive cost, do you think they do it for shits and giggles?

This is all clearly falling on very deaf ears. So here's an idea, we'll all stop posting about it because we clearly can't agree. I'll carry on with my winter tyres, you carry on without, and leave it at that.
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      11-14-2011, 04:27 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SelSol View Post
Yes I can SEE what you posted and I know what it means! You clearly don't understand how these values are obtained!!!!

Please try and understand this: Thats the monthly average, which means it could have been -1C for X days, but +4C on the Y days bringing the average minium above zero. The fact the average coldest temp is above freezing doesn't detract that it still means you've got X days at below zero despite an above freezing average, which is invariably the case in britain. I repeat, how are you not getting this? Its basic statistical analysis taught in GCSE math to 15 year olds.

(snip)
If you want comment on monthly averages, you should write about monthly averages. You wrote about the intraday average, here: "If its +4C for 12 hours a day, and -2 for 12 hours a day, the average is +2C, yet there's still 12 hours a day that its freezing."

I think you better get a hold on GCSE English, before we go off onto GCSE maths. Nevertheless, the link I posted also says:

Winter in the UK is defined as lasting from December to February. The season is generally cool, wet and windy. Temperatures at night rarely drop below −10 C (14 F) and in the day rarely rise above 15 C (59 F). Precipitation is plentiful throughout the season, though snow is relatively infrequent despite the country's high latitude: The only areas with significant snowfall are the Scottish highlands and the Pennines, where at higher elevations a colder climate determines the vegetation, mainly temperate coniferous forest, although deforestation has severely decreased forest area. For a majority of the landmass snow is possible but not frequent, apart from the higher altitudes, where snow can lie 15 months or even beyond 6 months.
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      11-14-2011, 08:43 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocktails View Post
You sound amazing. I wish I'd had ur number last year when my 335d and z4 sat on the drive until i got snow socks for my 335. I bet the (at least) 10 other cars (mercs, jags and bm's) that i saw stranded could have done with a hero like you......
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      11-14-2011, 08:49 AM   #86
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Anyway. Has anyone noticed the number of Pistonheads style "you're wrong because I am right and THAT MAKES ME ANGRY" posters is on the up and up?

I wonder if the price point of the E9x cars means that mr Joe goldennecklace can now upgrade his beaten up Mondeo to an early E9x and that explains the shift of focus from a group of likeminded enthusiasts to a constant cock waving contest?

Case and point this topic. Someone who can't afford winter tyres getting extremely aggressive to those who have made a logical decision and decided they want to be able to drive their cars in the winter.

Is there a way back from this trend or are we now facing an exponential decline into drudgery?


PS: Fitting my winters tonight
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      11-14-2011, 08:56 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEGA View Post
Case and point this topic. Someone who can't afford winter tyres getting extremely aggressive to those who have made a logical decision and decided they want to be able to drive their cars in the winter.
There is no indication that anyone on this thread cannot afford winter tyres, regardless of if they have purchased them or not. Nor is there any indication what other goods or services the people who have purchased winter tyres have forgone. There is no indication about the financial standing of anyone in this thread or their previous vehicle ownership history. This post is nonsensical.
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      11-14-2011, 09:04 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaishang View Post
There is no indication that anyone on this thread cannot afford winter tyres, regardless of if they have purchased them or not. Nor is there any indication what other goods or services the people who have purchased winter tyres have forgone. There is no indication about the financial standing of anyone in this thread or their previous vehicle ownership history. This post is nonsensical.
Was actually aimed at Subzero rather than yourself - but it's a general trend.

The fact I didn't quote you at any point would allude to the fact it wasn't aimed at you. So why are you getting sensitive about it?

The simple fact is the vast majority of people who say winter tyres aren't worth it; Are those to whom the 600 outlay is more than they can afford - so they make excuses (before refusing to drive, or crashing their used 4x4 that should be magically better than anything else even though it's on 8 year old part worn summer tyres into a tree/wall/car/pedestrial) about how there is no benefit to winters.

Whether or not you are the exception to the rule, and could afford them but just flat don't want them: Doesn't change my perception of the general trend.

It's also interesting to me that as you could clearly buy 10 sets of them if you wanted: But refuse to do so (fair enough. You have your opinion, I have mine); That you choose to be so evangelical in this topic about the subject. If the topic isn't anything to do with you: Why post. People can make up their own mind

As I said though. My point was primarily aimed at that subzero fello but moreover just a response to the growing trend I've seen on this forum. That's why I didn't quote you directly at any point.
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Previously: 2003 Peugeot 206 1.6 8v | 2006 E90 320d M-Sport, 19" BBS CH, Full Ice-cold JL audio install, August 2010 Total BMW 6 page feature car. | 2003 Nissan 350Z GT Coupe 286BHP
Now:2010 E92 LCI 335d M-Sport
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