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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK Technical Forum > 17" Winter tyres - yes again, sorry!



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      11-04-2011, 09:48 AM   #1
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17" Winter tyres - yes again, sorry!

Guys
Been offered Sunny winters by both my local tyre dealers. 225/45x17

I've looked at them on the web and they seem agricultural, anyone any experience with them?

Also been quoted on Hankook IceBear for 105 each fitted, would they be better?

Thanks
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      11-04-2011, 10:09 AM   #2
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Personally I would not fit a budget winter or summer tyre. A budget winter will be much better than any summer in snow/ice but the rest of the time it is likely to be a liability, whereas a premium winter will have good grip in all conditions.

I know people that have used the Hankooks and thought they were OK - certainly a better bet than a lingaling ditchfinder special and around half the price of a premium winter.

I wonder what the wear is like? A friend of mine ran Pirelli Sottozeros last winter and I did a similar mileage on Nokian WRG2's. I had no measurable wear on the fronts and 1.5mm on the rears, despite keeping them on well into a warm March. He lost 2-3+mm all round, well over half the useful tread depth (assuming changing winters at 4mm). If the better winters last longer and work well in all conditions then they are worth the extra IMHO...

PS - am not suggestig Sottozeroes are bad, they review well and seem good in non-snow conditions which is vital for a winter tyre here. But they do wear!

Last edited by ALF_E90; 11-04-2011 at 10:55 AM.
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      11-04-2011, 10:17 AM   #3
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You pays your monies....it applies to everything including winter tyres.
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      11-04-2011, 02:14 PM   #4
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Don't buy Sunny tyres.

That should really be the end of it - but if you need an explanation as to why:

Why would you go from premium summer tyres to well and truly "budget" (read: shite) winter tyres, just because they say the word "Winter" on the side? It's crazy. 99% of the time your summer tyres (assuming you haven't gone "budget" with them too) will run rings around some crappy Chinese tyres that you've never heard of.

Seriously, why do people get caught up in, what can only be described as "hype", now? All i've heard for the last couple of months from absolutely everywhere is that everyone needs "Winter tyres". It's ridiculous. People have convinced themselves that they NEED these mystical "winter tyres" because some tyre company sponsored tyre test or the man at Kwik Fit, who was trying to flog you a set, told you so.

"Winter Tyres" is just a marketing campaign - and a bloody good one at that, since it's probably made tyre companies/car companies/tyre fitters an absolute mint.
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      11-05-2011, 07:10 PM   #5
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Subzero fancy showing me how to get my car going in the winter with premium summer tyres or taking a video clip of your car getting up an incline with no weight in the boot or any other adjustments, snow socks/chains? Not saying that I don't believe you but as everyone on this forum knows I couldn't move my car last year and when i set off in the dry as soon as it snowed the car was useless, now I know I need to improve my ability to drive in snow however universally the advice given to me is to get winter tyres.
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      11-06-2011, 03:37 AM   #6
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I really do not see why some people are so against winter tyres. Their abilities are proven and for some who need to drive they are very useful. Others cannot afford them or cannot justify the expense or can leave the car parked in bad weather.

That said I would not buy budget winters. I have bought a 2003 Fiesta to help through the winter and have ordered winter tyres for it as my wife and kids will be in it mostly and I want to give them the best chance. Lots of budget brands but I spent 10 more per tyre and got Dunlops.
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      11-06-2011, 03:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
I really do not see why some people are so against winter tyres. Their abilities are proven and for some who need to drive they are very useful. Others cannot afford them or cannot justify the expense or can leave the car parked in bad weather.

That said I would not buy budget winters. I have bought a 2003 Fiesta to help through the winter and have ordered winter tyres for it as my wife and kids will be in it mostly and I want to give them the best chance. Lots of budget brands but I spent £10 more per tyre and got Dunlops.
I think you will find that those who are anti winter tyres have not actually used them. Have yet to read a thread where someone has bought a set and said they were a waste of money! I have driven on both types of tyre in the winter and for my car it is night and day and the best money I have spent on the car.
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      11-06-2011, 05:25 AM   #8
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Totally agree Chris. I used them last year on my 335 and they were great. That is why I am getting them for the fiesta and at 250 for a set of Dunlops it has to be worth a punt.
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      11-06-2011, 05:51 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris330D View Post
I think you will find that those who are anti winter tyres have not actually used them. Have yet to read a thread where someone has bought a set and said they were a waste of money! I have driven on both types of tyre in the winter and for my car it is night and day and the best money I have spent on the car.
When I was researching whether to get winter tyres and which brand you're right I struggled to find many reviews which said they were a waste of money, the worst reviews were around performance of tyres in non cold and snow conditions and how this drop in performance did not justify the expense. As we all know one way round this is to have a summer set and a winter set and swap them around end of march. Which will increase the life of both set.
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      11-07-2011, 12:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subzero2003 View Post
Don't buy Sunny tyres.

That should really be the end of it - but if you need an explanation as to why:

Why would you go from premium summer tyres to well and truly "budget" (read: shite) winter tyres, just because they say the word "Winter" on the side? It's crazy. 99% of the time your summer tyres (assuming you haven't gone "budget" with them too) will run rings around some crappy Chinese tyres that you've never heard of.

Seriously, why do people get caught up in, what can only be described as "hype", now? All i've heard for the last couple of months from absolutely everywhere is that everyone needs "Winter tyres". It's ridiculous. People have convinced themselves that they NEED these mystical "winter tyres" because some tyre company sponsored tyre test or the man at Kwik Fit, who was trying to flog you a set, told you so.

"Winter Tyres" is just a marketing campaign - and a bloody good one at that, since it's probably made tyre companies/car companies/tyre fitters an absolute mint.
You sound amazing. I wish I'd had ur number last year when my 335d and z4 sat on the drive until i got snow socks for my 335. I bet the (at least) 10 other cars (mercs, jags and bm's) that i saw stranded could have done with a hero like you......
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      11-07-2011, 12:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris330D View Post
I think you will find that those who are anti winter tyres have not actually used them. Have yet to read a thread where someone has bought a set and said they were a waste of money! I have driven on both types of tyre in the winter and for my car it is night and day and the best money I have spent on the car.
I also think that people are anti winter tyres as they either can't afford the outlay or see it as they are being ripped off. If they actually thought about it they would realise that they only use ONE set at a time and therefore the only extra expense is having them swapped over twice a year (50 a time MAX) and they need a corner of their shed/garage to store them. These are a small price to pay for a:moving your car when it snows unless you are a "hero" b: not being a friggin liability in a powerful rear wheel drive car c: having the grip and control to be able to get out of sticky situations i.e. some egotistical twat hitting an extra slippy patch at the very same time that their superhero driving powers escape them
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      11-08-2011, 04:32 PM   #12
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Last year I fitted a set of brand spanking new Toyo Proxes on the rear of my 325d Touring - stuck a load of heavy stuff in the boot - dropped the tyre pressures by about 25% and guess what - managed to negotiate the climb from my driveway to the top of my estate every morning - bear in mind Guisborough ,North Yorks appeared on Sky news last winter as one of the worst hit places in the North, I was pretty pleased with that. 17x 225's are a better bet than the 18 255's rears currently on the car. I need a pair of winters for the old 17 in wheels and will probably fit Hankook Ice bears. Iam realistic and don't expect it to go anyway in snow on my 18 inch ellipsoids with summer tyres - looking at them it not surprising but you can use a BM all year round if you just drive as the conditions dictate, stick a set of narrower wheels with suitable rubber and get more rear traction by putting a little more weight over the driving wheels, and you understand that revving the shit out of the car really doesn't help. It also helps if yours is a manual - the most satisfying moment was overtaking a stricken cock in his A4 ascending a snowbound 1 in 6 hill in my useless BMW. Ha Ha bring on the snow
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      11-08-2011, 04:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subzero2003 View Post
Seriously, why do people get caught up in, what can only be described as "hype", now? All i've heard for the last couple of months from absolutely everywhere is that everyone needs "Winter tyres". It's ridiculous. People have convinced themselves that they NEED these mystical "winter tyres" because some tyre company sponsored tyre test or the man at Kwik Fit, who was trying to flog you a set, told you so.

"Winter Tyres" is just a marketing campaign - and a bloody good one at that, since it's probably made tyre companies/car companies/tyre fitters an absolute mint.
So presumably you've missed every winter tyre test carried out for the last decade that have unquestionably proven that winter tyres are superior to summer ones in <7C.

You've also missed the bit about German law stating that during winter conditions its a legal requirement to have Winter tyres fitted, and this also applies to Finland, Austria, parts of italy, Latvia, Slovenia.......
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      11-08-2011, 05:48 PM   #14
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Goodness me, I only asked for advice, didn't think I'd start a war....

Well, my wheels have been stripped and are ready for painting then they will get some winter tyres and I'll hopefully be able to get my car out of the yard this winter. It didn't move last year for two weeks and as has been pointed out above, it'll save wear on my Bridgestone RE050s for a few months and stave off the need to replace them as they are wearing quite badly on the inner edge.

Thx for all the constructive advice
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      11-09-2011, 04:12 AM   #15
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3306250132...84.m1436.l2649

Seems reasonable to me, they look like a michelin retread though..
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      11-09-2011, 04:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SelSol View Post
So presumably you've missed every winter tyre test carried out for the last decade that have unquestionably proven that winter tyres are superior to summer ones in <7C.

You've also missed the bit about German law stating that during winter conditions its a legal requirement to have Winter tyres fitted, and this also applies to Finland, Austria, parts of italy, Latvia, Slovenia.......
They haven't proven winter tyres are superior, they have proven that there is marginal difference between winter and summer tyres on cold wet road and cold dry roads. Infact the tests have proven that for dry roads and for aquaplaning, summer tyres are usually superior even below 7C.

What they have also shows is, as expected, winter tyres are far, far superior if there is snow on the road. They have also shown winter tyres are far superior if the road is iced over, but the friction coefficient for ice is still so low that even on winter tyres it can take you 12 metres to stop from jogging pace.

German law also does not require winter tyres. It requires tyres suitable for the conditions. This means winter tyres if there is snow or ice on the road. Vehicles with summer tyres are not permitted to drive on roads with snow or ice. Vehicles with summer tyres may still be driven on wet or dry roads in winter.
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      11-09-2011, 05:07 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SelSol View Post
You've also missed the bit about German law stating that during winter conditions its a legal requirement to have Winter tyres fitted
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaishang View Post
German law also does not require winter tyres. It requires tyres suitable for the conditions.
How is that not what I said?

The law stipulates winter tyres because a motorist got off a fine becuase the the wording of "apropriate tyres" wasn't exact enough under the old ruling, and since you can't predict the ice, the von O bis O rule applies, which requires an M+S Reifen rated tyres.
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      11-09-2011, 09:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocktails View Post
You sound amazing. I wish I'd had ur number last year when my 335d and z4 sat on the drive until i got snow socks for my 335. I bet the (at least) 10 other cars (mercs, jags and bm's) that i saw stranded could have done with a hero like you......
Oh noes, you couldn't drive for a whole 3 days. Those 3 days are definitely worth the 500 for a new set of tyres, 500 for a new set of alloys, the time and effort to get them changed over and the storage of them for 9 months of the year when they're not needed.

What school of finance did you go to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocktails View Post
I also think that people are anti winter tyres as they either can't afford the outlay or see it as they are being ripped off.
Yep - i don't like buying pointless items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocktails View Post
These are a small price to pay for a:moving your car when it snows unless you are a "hero" b: not being a friggin liability in a powerful rear wheel drive car c: having the grip and control to be able to get out of sticky situations i.e. some egotistical twat hitting an extra slippy patch at the very same time that their superhero driving powers escape them
You call 800+ a "small price to pay" just so you can drive your car on the few days a year when the roads are snowy? The last two winters have driven everyone mental - we've never had a winters like that for a long long time. And even if i have the latest and best winter tyres - there's 99% of the country who don't and every idiot with a 4x4 or van will still sit 3 inches from my rear in snow, like they did last year in the snow.

Also, you seem to think that you need to be some kind of driving god to drive a BMW in the snow? Perhaps you should brush up on your skills. There was only ONE time in my 6-7 years of driving where i've ever thought snow tyres would of benefit and that was when i was caught in the heaviest snow i've ever seen. And 2 days later the roads were clear again.

I half think that anyone who buys winter tyres does it just so that they can tell anyone who will listen that they have winter tyres.

Hint: nobody cares.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelSol View Post
So presumably you've missed every winter tyre test carried out for the last decade that have unquestionably proven that winter tyres are superior to summer ones in <7C.
Perhaps i have. Or perhaps "every winter tyre test" hasn't actually stated what you've said. This is exactly what makes people buy winter tyres - people on forums without a clue spouting off unfounded opinions.

Hell, if you look above you'll see that the tyre test i posted showed that summer tyres were the best in situations bar snow. And the other thread when someone posted the Autocar tyre test, the best winter tyres took an extra 7 METERS to stop in the wet, over strictly MID RANGE summer tyres.

And what makes up most of our winter? Yes, that's correct, rain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelSol View Post
You've also missed the bit about German law stating that during winter conditions its a legal requirement to have Winter tyres fitted, and this also applies to Finland, Austria, parts of italy, Latvia, Slovenia.......
More worryingly, i think you seemed to have missed the bit that we don't live in Germany, Finland, Austria, Italy, Latvia or Slovenia?

BTW everyone in Australia, South African and California uses summer tyres - THAT OBVIOUSLY SHOWS THAT SUMMER TYRES ARE THE BEST!!!111

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaishang View Post
They haven't proven winter tyres are superior, they have proven that there is marginal difference between winter and summer tyres on cold wet road and cold dry roads. Infact the tests have proven that for dry roads and for aquaplaning, summer tyres are usually superior even below 7C.

What they have also shows is, as expected, winter tyres are far, far superior if there is snow on the road. They have also shown winter tyres are far superior if the road is iced over, but the friction coefficient for ice is still so low that even on winter tyres it can take you 12 metres to stop from jogging pace.
Exactly. There was never any argument that winter tyres are better in snow. But wet weather performance means far more than snow performance, because the ratio of days where we have just wet roads compared to snowy roads in the 3 months of winter, i imagine is in the region of about 1:20 (snow:wet).

But what the winter tyre fanboys can't seem to fathom is that buying an 800 set of alloys and tyres for those few days a year is ridiculous. Ultra high performance summer tyres still perform better in every situation bar snow. And for those few days that there is snow on the ground either A) Don't drive. or B) Take a taxi and not risking damaging the car.

It remind me of last winter when it snowed, before the "winter tyre" hysteria, when everyone rushed out to buy a 4x4 or insisted that their next car was going to definitely be a 4x4 so that could get around when the roads were snowy. You know, for those 4 days a year...
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      11-09-2011, 09:12 AM   #19
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Sub Zero you really are making an a**e of yourself.

Your post contradicts itself as you talk of only ever once needing winter tyres but then also say you don't drive or take a taxi ...... so which is it? Some may not have the luxury of deciding to just not drive on a snowy day as we need to get to work and others may live too rural for a taxi to be practical. Can't you just accept others can afford the outlay and feel its worthwhile, you clearly do not fit into either of these groups and have tried but failed to make your point. Leave others now to discuss what the OP has asked.

ps. Hopefully you don't get stuck in your summer tyres and block the roads for the rest of us who have prepared for the conditions as much as possible.
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      11-09-2011, 09:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
Sub Zero you really are making an a**e of yourself.
Thanks for the insult. You're obviously not bright enough to respond to my points properly, so just turned to insults. Why did you bother replying again?

At least i back up my opinions with fact and actually question things unlike half the sheep who buy winter tyres because some random guy on a forum said that they are the best thing ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
Your post contradicts itself as you talk of only ever once needing winter tyres but then also say you don't drive or take a taxi ...... so which is it?
How is that a contradiction? I've said that i've only ever felt i could do with winter tyres once before. But for those who couldn't drive for those 3-4 days last year and your journey is essential, take a taxi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
Some may not have the luxury of deciding to just not drive on a snowy day as we need to get to work and others may live too rural for a taxi to be practical.
That's what i was talking about in my last post - for those who need to travel on those few days of snow, get a taxi. I need to get to work and live in a very rural location - i've never had a problem getting a taxi. Nor have i ever heard of anyone else at that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
Can't you just accept others can afford the outlay and feel its worthwhile, you clearly do not fit into either of these groups and have tried but failed to make your point.
No, because part of the problem with actually having the brain is "not just accepting something because someone on a forum once made up that winter tyres are essential and anyone without them is an idiot and is going to die and kill everyone at the same time".

I haven't failed to make a point actually. In my previous post i made many many points which i'd like to invite people to discuss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
Leave others now to discuss what the OP has asked.
No thanks - i think i'll continue discussing winter tyres in a thread about....winter tyres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davyk31 View Post
ps. Hopefully you don't get stuck in your summer tyres and block the roads for the rest of us who have prepared for the conditions as much as possible.
P.s. i hope you don't plow into the back of anyone on one of the many many non snowy days because you have winter tyres and takes you another 7-10metres to stop in the wet.

I won't be driving in the 3 days of snow we will get, but i'm guessing you'll be driving in the 100 days of wet roads we'll get.

Question: Why are you paying so much just so you can get around in 3-4 days of snow?
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      11-09-2011, 09:46 AM   #21
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Also, i was disappointed that none of the "OMG YOU NEED WINTER TYRES" brigade in the other thread address my in depth post. Perhaps in this thread people will address the results shown?

Please bare in mind that the "Continental PremiumContact 2" a two generation old midrange tyre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subzero2003 View Post
Not sure if this has already been posted but this is quite interesting:

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/wint...-tested/259257



Wet testing - The Continental Premium Contact 2 is the closest tyre there to being a proper UHP summer tyre. And in the wet, at 4c it stopped only FOUR METRES more than the BEST winter tyre tested. Now, assuming a proper, UHP tyre was tested such as the Goodyear Assymetric 2's or the Continetal Sport Contact 5P's, i have no doubt this gap would have been none existant.




Wet handling course - Now, in the wet handling course, at 5c, the Continental Premium Contact (which is only a mid range tyre remember) took the top spot. This gap would have been even bigger if a UHP had been used, such as those mentioned previously.




Dry testing at 5.5c - well, i don't think anything needs to be said. The best winter tyre took a staggering 7metres extra to stop over the midrange Continental Premium Contact 2 summer tyre. Remember, this would have been even more if a proper UHP was tested.

Aquaplaning test - they did an aquaplaning test too and guess what? The midrange CPC2 dry tyre got the exact same result as the best winter tyre tested.
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      11-09-2011, 09:57 AM   #22
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Just done a bit more browsing around the internet and found another test:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inside Line
Wet Test Results
As with the snow test, it takes a purpose-built test surface to get meaningful and accurate wet test results. What's needed is a large flat VDA with a special asphalt formulation and a water-delivery system that can maintain a uniform depth of water (the approximate thickness of a quarter), so there's a consistent coefficient of friction across the entire surface.

We find it at Arizona Proving Ground (APG) near Phoenix, formerly a Volvo facility and now branded as Ford. Its pristine micro-pool looks gorgeous on this May afternoon as the surrounding mountain peaks, little fluffy clouds and spring sunlight reflect in the glassy surface.

It turns out we can test everything to and from 60 mph here, so for brevity's sake we'll stick to a discussion of those results. Those who want to can find the 40-mph results on the accompanying charts.


Acceleration testing provides the first surprise, as the all-season tire trails the pack with a 15.4-second 0-60 run. The snow tire's 12.7-second effort for 2nd place is significantly better, but the summer tire tops them all with an 11.9-second performance, over 20 percent quicker than the all-season tire. In fact, the all-season tire began encountering trouble near 40 mph, where it had been only 0.4 second behind the summer tire's performance when hydroplaning and wheelspin paid a visit.

Things are much the same when braking from 60 mph. The summer tire's 157-foot stop is the shortest, the snow tires come up 2nd at 181 feet and the all-season tires lag further behind in a flurry of ABS activity on the way to a distance of 215 feet, some 58 feet longer than the summer tire.

On the wet skid pad the summer tire smokes them once more, even delivering a little tire squeal as it churns out 0.81g — a figure many car-tire combinations can't match on dry pavement. The winter tire trails with a 0.71g run characterized by noticeable squirm, presumably from the side loads acting on the numerous sipes in its snow-biased tread pattern. That said, it still bests our all-season tire, which once again brings up the rear with a disappointing 0.65g showing.
Interesting - 26ft (8 metres) extra stopping distance from 60mph on a wet surface with Michelins best winter tyre. Seems to match up quite well with the "WhatCar" winter tyre test too.

Comments?

Last edited by Subzero2003; 11-09-2011 at 10:08 AM.
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