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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > 335 Coupe 6mt VS C6 Corvette 6mt



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      05-12-2007, 05:10 PM   #23
Carnage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razormy View Post
Not that it makes any difference but my friend just told me he has a K&N filter in his C6. Either way, I consider that stock. Filter only doesn't really do anything but give you slightly better throttle response.
I'd agree, K&N doesn't do much if anything. You have to replace to box to get any real gains.
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      05-12-2007, 05:13 PM   #24
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wow good runs, c6's are hard to catch on the highway....

and yea the new c6 just got crazier, can't believe what the new z06 (ss, z07, blue devil, whatever they're gonna call it) is goin to be 600hp and lighter...freakin' crazy

your result sound pretty consistent with Walked U's encounter with a vette...he took the c6 by IIRC half a car with just procede and catback, but that c6 was probably automatic....
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      05-12-2007, 07:46 PM   #25
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I think that the 335 Procede does pretty good against the vette. The vette also weighs about 400lbs less than the 335, so it should win. The 335 needs more than 400hp to the crank to beat it! Still a good race though.
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      05-12-2007, 08:12 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razormy View Post
There's a phenomenon that I keep experiencing when drag racing the car, in 1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 3rd, even if I shift fast, the throttle does not engage fast. It's not the clutch slipping. It just feels like theres a very big hesitation at those points. 3rd to 4th is no problem. Considering I already removed the CDV, which helped tremendously, there's still a hesitation. Can anyone tell me what the hell this is?

How does the ECU control the wastegate? How fast is the actuation from WOT to Lift (shift) back to WOT?

Since some people are seeing this issue with the Steptronic, does this transmission also open the wastegate on shifts?
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      05-12-2007, 09:35 PM   #27
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RE: throttle delay - could it be a torque management program?

I'd have to search around for my source, but I do recall reading that one of the nanny programs attempts to control engine torque during a downshift in order to limit the possibility of engine braking causing a stability issue. An example of this: downshifting mid-corner and losing the rear end because the revs don't match and the rears literally brake loose.

Is it possible that this torque management is occuring on upshifts as well, to limit potential wheelspin? I've experienced this delay in the 1-2 as well, but only under hard acceleration. The 330Ci I had before was also drive-by-wire and didn't have this delay, so it's either a turbo-lag effect or it's something else. It's not the CDV because others have ruled that out.

The interesting thing is that while it happens most of the time, it doesn't seem to happen all of the time. I have been able to get some wheel snapping 1-2 shifts with no throttle delay (or CDV-induced clutch slippage for that matter). So what the heck gives here?!?
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      05-12-2007, 09:52 PM   #28
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Help me understand the 2-3 throttle delay. I've chirped my stock rears going from 2-3 and don't feel any delay although I'll admit my 4 month old car and 2000 miles haven't done this but twice. I've not done the CDV delete yet.
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      05-12-2007, 10:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PiperD View Post
I'd have to search around for my source, but I do recall reading that one of the nanny programs attempts to control engine torque during a downshift in order to limit the possibility of engine braking causing a stability issue. An example of this: downshifting mid-corner and losing the rear end because the revs don't match and the rears literally brake loose.

Is it possible that this torque management is occuring on upshifts as well, to limit potential wheelspin? I've experienced this delay in the 1-2 as well, but only under hard acceleration. The 330Ci I had before was also drive-by-wire and didn't have this delay, so it's either a turbo-lag effect or it's something else. It's not the CDV because others have ruled that out.

The interesting thing is that while it happens most of the time, it doesn't seem to happen all of the time. I have been able to get some wheel snapping 1-2 shifts with no throttle delay (or CDV-induced clutch slippage for that matter). So what the heck gives here?!?


Way back when in 1986 when Porsche came out with the revolutionary 944 Turbo, the ECU limited boost in 1st gear to help traction and controlled boost in other gears by looking at many variables.....so it wouldn't be surprising if this lag is intermittent as the variables for the engine changes all the time.

The best person this board to answer the question is Shiv.....he has seen the maps and programming.....

Shiv?
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      05-12-2007, 10:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pander5 View Post
Help me understand the 2-3 throttle delay. I've chirped my stock rears going from 2-3 and don't feel any delay although I'll admit my 4 month old car and 2000 miles haven't done this but twice. I've not done the CDV delete yet.
Quote:
The best person this board to answer the question is Shiv.....he has seen the maps and programming.....

Shiv?

For me; 6 spd AT, the delay I have been experiencing has been "amplified" with the installation of the PROcede...In 2nd gear when I depress the accelerator about 3/4 to just shy of full the car whines up and then decides suddenly to almost "cut fuel delivery" sending you lurching forward, about 2 full seconds later it decides to shift into 3rd.

It is definitely something, as PiperD mentioned, that does not occur at every 2-3 gear upshift...but there seems to be a sweet spot in the throttle position that it happens in more frequently. I'm trying to experiment in "D", "DS", and "M" modes w/ and w/o DTC/DSC to see if there's a pattern.

so far I'm seeing more occurrences in "DS" w/o traction control engaged. I'm still testing it out. Once in M mode at the top of second it "cut fuel delivery" at about 5000 rpm as well.

Shiv said in this thread that I need to give it more time to "adapt" but I'm not so sure right now...
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      05-12-2007, 11:48 PM   #31
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hmm...

I wonder if their working on this issue at Vishnu

I have to say that it's very annoying. If there was no delay in 1-2 and 2-3 the race could have been closer between me and the C6. He gained momentum on my shifts because the car basically was just coasting for about 2 seconds each time it occurred.

I tell you, first the CDV then this. I would like to drive the car, not the computer drive it for me damn it.:mad:
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      05-13-2007, 08:56 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matsarge View Post
That's not a fair "real-world" simulation because any C6 driver with half a brain will not be downshifting in 3rd at 40. They'll still be in 1st at that point. The difference in gearing between the cars makes it difficult to do a fair run like that and puts the 335 at a disadvantage in most cases because the C6 will be in a lower gear. If you "match" gears so both are in the same gear at the same speed, the C6 is at a disadvantage because it's in the wrong gear for the speed and you're not seeing the true measure of what it can do.

Here's the shift points for the C6 in a "race" scenario.

1-55
2-85
3-120
4-150

The gearing and power in the C6 have gives you some broad range compared to most cars. You can downshift into the following gears as long as your not exceeding the following speeds.

1-50
2-74
3-101
4-130
I thought these where the shift points. For a C6
Transmission: 6-speed manual
Final-drive ratio: 3.42:1, limited slip
Gear, Ratio, Mph/1000 rpm, Max speed in gears
I, 2.97, 7.6, 49 mph (6500 rpm)
II, 2.07, 10.9, 71 mph (6500 rpm)
III, 1.43, 15.8, 102 mph (6500 rpm)
IV, 1.00, 22.5, 147 mph (6500 rpm)
V, 0.71, 31.8, 186 mph (5900 rpm)
VI, 0.57, 39.6, 165 mph (4200 rpm)

And these for a 335I

Transmission: 6-speed manual
Final-drive ratio: 3.08:1
Gear: Ratio: Mph/1000 rpm Max test speed
I 4.06 5.8 40 mph (7000 rpm)
II 2.40 9.7 68 mph (7000 rpm)
III 1.58 14.8 104 mph (7000 rpm)
IV 1.19 19.7 138 mph (7000 rpm)
V 1.00 23.4 144 mph (6150 rpm)
VI 0.87 26.9 144 mph (5350 rpm)
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      05-13-2007, 10:58 AM   #33
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The delay will continue to get worse. It's the fuel pump IMO.
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      05-13-2007, 11:29 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookiemonster View Post
I thought these where the shift points. For a C6
Transmission: 6-speed manual
Final-drive ratio: 3.42:1, limited slip
Gear, Ratio, Mph/1000 rpm, Max speed in gears
I, 2.97, 7.6, 49 mph (6500 rpm)
II, 2.07, 10.9, 71 mph (6500 rpm)
III, 1.43, 15.8, 102 mph (6500 rpm)
IV, 1.00, 22.5, 147 mph (6500 rpm)
V, 0.71, 31.8, 186 mph (5900 rpm)
VI, 0.57, 39.6, 165 mph (4200 rpm)

And these for a 335I

Transmission: 6-speed manual
Final-drive ratio: 3.08:1
Gear: Ratio: Mph/1000 rpm Max test speed
I 4.06 5.8 40 mph (7000 rpm)
II 2.40 9.7 68 mph (7000 rpm)
III 1.58 14.8 104 mph (7000 rpm)
IV 1.19 19.7 138 mph (7000 rpm)
V 1.00 23.4 144 mph (6150 rpm)
VI 0.87 26.9 144 mph (5350 rpm)
The ratios you have listed are for the Z51 only. The gear ratios for the base 6spd and the Z06 are

Transmission: 6-speed manual
I - 2.66
II - 1.78
III - 1.30
IV - 1.00
V - 0.74
VI- 0.50

You have to shift sooner in the Z51 then the base or Z06. I have the base and 1st gear redlines at 58, 2nd gear redlines at 86 and 3rd gear redlines at 117. I'm also not stock so take a couple of MPH's off those for a stock C6. It's probably closer to 55 in 1st , 82 in 2nd, 113 in 3rd and 147 in 4th for the stock.

Last edited by Carnage; 05-13-2007 at 01:34 PM.
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      05-13-2007, 08:33 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razormy View Post
I wonder if their working on this issue at Vishnu

I have to say that it's very annoying. If there was no delay in 1-2 and 2-3 the race could have been closer between me and the C6. He gained momentum on my shifts because the car basically was just coasting for about 2 seconds each time it occurred.
I had the exact same experience when I first drove my VW Golf 1.8T hard. I'd do a hard shift from 1-2 or 2-3 and the car felt like it fell on its face. It seemed like the turbo completely stopped spinning and I had to wait for it to build boost again. I know.. different car but it was also drive by wire and turbo charged.

I installed a Forge diverter valve (recirculating, not a blow off valve), tried to adjusted my driving style and it it became a rare occurrence. The car was stock when I first felt it. Give it time.
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      05-14-2007, 02:12 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matsarge View Post
The ratios you have listed are for the Z51 only. The gear ratios for the base 6spd and the Z06 are

Transmission: 6-speed manual
I - 2.66
II - 1.78
III - 1.30
IV - 1.00
V - 0.74
VI- 0.50

You have to shift sooner in the Z51 then the base or Z06. I have the base and 1st gear redlines at 58, 2nd gear redlines at 86 and 3rd gear redlines at 117. I'm also not stock so take a couple of MPH's off those for a stock C6. It's probably closer to 55 in 1st , 82 in 2nd, 113 in 3rd and 147 in 4th for the stock.
Ahh ok. Thanks for the info. I did not know that!

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      05-14-2007, 06:26 PM   #37
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I started feeling this delay on my car today going from 2nd to 3rd. I used to do a reallyy nice chirp going into 3rd, but now my car falls on its face into 3rd. Even though i still get a lot of wheel spin into 2nd it doesnt seem to want to go after it gets traction. My car is stock with about 1800 miles on it. I felt the delay from 1st to 2nd right from the begining, now i started feeling it into 3rd. I even gave one of my friends a test drive and he noticed something is up after i shift. His like something is wrong with your car when you shift it shouldnt be like that its almost like your turbos turn off. It was his first time in a 335i and he noticed that shit. Im going to take my car in and see what they say.
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      05-14-2007, 10:22 PM   #38
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I started feeling this delay on my car today going from 2nd to 3rd. I used to do a reallyy nice chirp going into 3rd, but now my car falls on its face into 3rd. Even though i still get a lot of wheel spin into 2nd it doesnt seem to want to go after it gets traction. My car is stock with about 1800 miles on it. I felt the delay from 1st to 2nd right from the begining, now i started feeling it into 3rd. I even gave one of my friends a test drive and he noticed something is up after i shift. His like something is wrong with your car when you shift it shouldnt be like that its almost like your turbos turn off. It was his first time in a 335i and he noticed that shit. Im going to take my car in and see what they say.
Let us know when you get a response from service.
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      05-15-2007, 08:53 AM   #39
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I suggest you re-race.

With 4 people in each car + luggage and golf clubs for a weekend
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      05-15-2007, 11:33 AM   #40
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I might Be able to Help, BMWs from 1996 and on have what’s known as a "lock valve" that slows the flow of hydraulic fluid during shifting. Its purpose is to dampen the engagement of the clutch so that no matter how quickly you let the clutch pedal out, you can’t dump it -- great for teaching a 15- year-old how to shift, but frustrating as heck for skilled drivers. No matter how hard you try, you can’t shift crisply or avoid clutch slippage. (Parallel parking is a drag, and going from 1st into 2nd is so jerky, your passengers look at you funny... once their heads stop bobbing.) One way to fix this problem is to simply remove the lock valve and force the metal hydraulic lines together. But this can crimp your lines and cause an annoying rattle. A better way is to use an "unlock valve." It’s a BMW lock valve with the restrictor removed. You’ll enjoy crisper shifts while maintaining the proper distance between the metal hydraulic lines and brackets (no crimped lines and no rattles).


http://www.bavauto.com/shop.asp

Part#/Name:
UNLOCK3

Price: $29.95

Phone: 1-800-535-2002
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      05-15-2007, 11:40 AM   #41
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AKA CDV-Clutch Delay Valve.
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      05-15-2007, 11:45 AM   #42
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AKA CDV-Clutch Delay Valve.
my bad, i thought it meant something else.....!
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      05-15-2007, 11:47 AM   #43
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my bad, i thought it meant something else.....!
Thanks for taking the time to post.
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      05-15-2007, 03:26 PM   #44
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Don't forget, the 335 has over 400 lb. weight disadvantage!

335 3500+
C6 3100+

Last edited by az335i; 05-15-2007 at 03:28 PM. Reason: added info
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