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      12-15-2011, 07:32 AM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
With the heavy rear weight bias, it would take a lot of chassis tuning to get the Evora to understeer.
No. Actually, it's the other way around. Heavy rear weight bias makes for excelent turn-in characteristics when braking to a corner (you can carry a lot of speed) whereas under acceleration the car will naturally understeer as the weight shifts rearward and downforce on the front wheels is decreased. See the above vid when Tiff says 'Wait for power... wait for power... wait for power' while pushing the Cayman because it will also understeer.


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Just switching an Elise to a more squared tire setup dials out nearly all of their understeer. Similar changes go for the 986/987, going to a square 235 or 245 setup certainly makes them more balanced than the factory fitments.
The Cayman's factory fitment is 205/55/17 front and 235/50/17 rear which is ok for the 265hp even without the optional LSD.

It's not for chance that Porsche will only allow the fitment of the LSD from factory with 18 and 19" wheels.


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To your other point, is there any reason that Toyota/Scion can't run a supercharger while Subaru runs a turbo?
Yes. One thing called economy of scale. That's the reason why this car is a joint-venture project between Toyota and Subaru.
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      12-15-2011, 07:51 AM   #244
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GoingTooFast: Good work at promoting the GT86/BRZ on a BMW forum. It is a long time that BMW enthusiast have been waiting for such a car. The most hard thing will be going from a BMW badge to some japanese badge without premium. But true car enthusiasts as I, don't care about badges (anymore, since even a 2,5 ton SUV gets an M badge slapped to it).

PS: If the BRZ were a BMW it would cost twice.
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      12-15-2011, 10:46 AM   #245
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GoingTooFast: Good work at promoting the GT86/BRZ on a BMW forum. It is a long time that BMW enthusiast have been waiting for such a car. The most hard thing will be going from a BMW badge to some japanese badge without premium. But true car enthusiasts as I, don't care about badges (anymore, since even a 2,5 ton SUV gets an M badge slapped to it).

PS: If the BRZ were a BMW it would cost twice.
Levi,

I'm really a BIG fan of this Toyobaru... if BMW enthusiasts feel that the 1M is a sort of 'back-to-basics' machine, then what to say about this Toyobaru!

In all honesty, the 1M is BMW's badge and own interpretation for a car like the Toyobaru in today's world and I'm positive that it won't get much better than this for a 4 seater. You can have a lighter 1M in the future but it will never be lighter than its japanese counterpart because that's the difference between 340 and 200hp, between 1570 and 1270kg, between double and half the cost.

Who needs the extra weight and cost?!

Not the true enthusiasts but those who need 4 true seats!

And, that's the sole problem with this Toyobaru... it should have been a true 4 seater coupe and without any weight penalty except for the back passengers!

Am I asking too much?!

The answer lays in choosing between the 1M and this Toyobaru... I've chosen the 1M but I wish I didn't need back seats!
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      12-15-2011, 12:55 PM   #246
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If the BRZ is also called the "Toyobaru", the FR-S should be called "Subayota". The BRZ and FR-S look VERY similar, but with the right mods, the FR-S looks better.

Here's the FR-S btw. I'll just let the pictures do the talking...









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      12-15-2011, 06:06 PM   #247
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Very nice indeed. But try to find also a black BRZ (production model):

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      12-16-2011, 12:23 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Just switching an Elise to a more squared tire setup dials out nearly all of their understeer. Similar changes go for the 986/987, going to a square 235 or 245 setup certainly makes them more balanced than the factory fitments.
Red,

I just want to add that there's more to it than just too much rubber (with 18 and 19" wheels) and relatively low power without LSD for such a good chassis like that in the Cayman which leads to understeer.

The fact is that you can't switch off the DSC (Dynamic Stability Control) permanently, which is a petty!

When the system detects a wheel speed difference, right and left, above a predetermined threshold it will actuate making the Cayman to understeer. Thus, a LSD would be of some assistance here too by retarding the DSC action.
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      12-16-2011, 09:53 PM   #249
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very nice car
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      12-18-2011, 01:48 PM   #250
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If Audi believes in compressor supercharging why wouldn't it be also feasible in this Toyobaru?

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SOURCE Audi of America, Inc.

HERNDON, Va., Dec. 15, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Audi today announced that the Audi 3.0 L TFSIŽ supercharged V-6 engine has secured a position on Ward's 10 Best Engine list for 2012. Now in its 18th year, Ward's 10 Best Engines recognizes the latest powertrain technologies that are affordable to most consumers, boost horsepower and torque, sound appealing and integrate well with their respective vehicles.

For the 2012 Ward's 10 Best Engine awards, editors tested 36 vehicles and scored each engine based on power, technology, observed fuel economy and noise, vibration and harshness characteristics. Each engine was required to be available in a regular-production U.S.-specification model on sale no later than first-quarter 2012, in a vehicle with a base price below $55,000.

"With so many engines featuring gasoline direct-injection and forced induction, we're pleased to have a list that is rich in technology," says Drew Winter, editor-in-chief of WardsAuto World. "Plus, every engine reinforces the idea that even fuel-efficient vehicles must be fun to drive."

For 2012, Audi's 3.0 L TFSI supercharged V-6 engine returns to Ward's 10 Best Engine list for a third consecutive win. With 310 horsepower and 325 lb.-ft. of torque, the all-aluminum engine is unapologetically powerful. With peak torque available from 2,900 to 4,500 rpm, power is available at any speed. And, the four vane Roots-style supercharger helps this motor achieve V8 power and torque with the efficiency of a V6.

The Audi 3.0 L TFSI supercharged V-6 engine not only powers the new 2012 A6 sedan, but also powers the new 2012 Audi A7 5-door coupe, the Audi Q7 full-size luxury sport-utility vehicle, as well as the S4 sedan and the S5 luxury coupe.
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For 2013, the Audi S5 Coupé will finally have its long awaited move to the 3.0L Supercharged V6 TFSI power plant producing 333 hp, an engine already used in the S5 Cabriolet and S4 Sedan/Avant since the 2010 model year. The other major change under the bonnet is the introduction of stop-start technology for better fuel efficiency. Audi claims an average fuel economy of 8.9 litres/100 km (compared to the current 12.6 litres/100 km in the V8 coupe and 10.7 litres/100 km in the Cabriolet).
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American OEM firm Eaton Corporation has announced that its Twin Vortices Series (TVS) supercharger has been chosen by Audi for its new 3.0 liter TFSI V6 engine. The new engine will go into production later this year and will be used for a range of Audi models including the new S4 and possibly even the next RS4. Initial applications will see the forced-fed engine produce a peak output of 290hp (213kW) and 310lb-ft (420Nm).

While many of its rivals have adopted turbochargers in their quest to boost performance without significantly increasing fuel-consumption, Audi decided to go the supercharging route because of the extra available power at lower revs than a comparable turbocharged mill.

The compressor is so compact that it easily fits inside the 90-degree V of the cylinder banks, in place of the intake manifold. Because it’s driven by the engine via a poly-V belt, its full thrust is available from idle speed upwards, producing huge pulling power when driving off. The gas paths after the compressor are also very short, which means that torque is built up extremely quickly.

“Audi engineers did extensive comparative testing and found our new TVS supercharger provided superior throttle response and low-end torque coveted by drivers," explained Eaton's powertrain chief Joao Faria.

The Eaton TVS is an all-new Roots-type positive displacement supercharger that features twin four-lobe rotors that are twisted 160-degrees. The intermeshing, high-speed rotor design pumps air directly into the engines intake system and is more efficient than previous designs. The rotors can deliver 1,000 kilograms (2204.62 lb) of air per hour and force it into the combustion chambers at a boost pressure of up to 0.8bar.

By comparison, the original Eaton supercharger features three lobes twisted at 60 degrees. The fourth lobe and added twist, when combined with redesigned air inlet and outlet ports, creates a smooth, highly efficient flow of air into the engine and has improved noise and vibration characteristics.

2008 PRESS RELEASE:

The new 3.0 TFSI: High-tech V6 with compressor supercharging

* Compressor and direct injection – a compelling duo

* 213 kW (290 hp), 420 Nm and outstanding efficiency

* Superb power from idle speeds up, spontaneous torque buildup

Powerful, spontaneous and ultra-efficient: this is the new top version in Audi's V6 engine range. The 3.0 TFSI develops 213 kW (290 hp) and a huge 420 Nm (309.78 lb-ft) of torque. It combines two state-of-the-art technologies in perfect style – gasoline direct injection and compressor supercharging. The hi-tech V6 will go into production later in the year.

The brand with the four rings has a long tradition of supercharged engines. The legendary Grand Prix racing cars built by Auto Union back in the 1930s already featured compressors, which coaxed as much as 440 kW (around 600 hp) out of the mighty 16-cylinder and 12-cylinder engines. From the late 1970s on, Audi focused its attention on the exhaust turbocharger, which helped it to a succession of noteworthy triumphs in the world of motor sport. It was at this time that Audi's turbo engines began to enjoy resounding market success.

The compressor is now staging a comeback. It is the ideal supercharging technology for the new three-liter V6, the 3.0 TFSI; the T in Audi engine designations consequently no longer exclusively denotes turbo versions.

Extensive comparative tests revealed the mechanical supercharger to be superior to a biturbo concept for this engine. In conjunction with direct injection, its packaging, starting performance and dynamic response were far superior.

The compressor is so compact that it easily fits inside the 90-degree V of the cylinder banks, in place of the intake manifold. Because it is driven by the engine via poly-V belt, its full thrust is available from idle speed upwards, producing huge pulling power when driving off. The 3.0 TFSI delivers its maximum 420 Nm (309.78 lb-ft) at only 2,500 rpm and maintains this constantly until 4,850 rpm.

The gas paths after the compressor are very short; this means that the torque is built up extremely quickly, even more dynamically than on a naturally aspirated engine of the same displacement. The 3.0 TFSI responds sportily to the throttle, with exceptional agility and bite. And it revs up to the maximum of 6,500 rpm with playful ease, achieving its rated output of 213 kW (290 hp) at just under 5,000 rpm.

Top marks for fuel efficiency

The 3.0 TFSI without question earns top marks for fuel efficiency, too. And its pulling power enables it to extend the transmission ratio, further adding to its already superior efficiency. The new 3.0 TFSI will achieve an average fuel consumption of well under 10 liters per 100 km (23.52 US mpg) in virtually all longitudinally engined Audi models, the concept for which it is envisaged. It is designed to run on either premium or regular gasoline and already complies with the future emission standard Euro 5 – a question of honor for every new Audi engine.

The Audi technology of gasoline direct injection according to the FSI principle was what made this trailblazing efficiency possible in the first place. Unlike conventional concepts, it allows the compressor to be located behind the throttle valve. In view of the low density of the intake air at loads below supercharging level and when coasting, its rotors are free-running and the amount of power required to drive them is low.

The engine's high compression ratio of 10.5:1 also plays a big part in its efficiency. The direct injection principle is once again the key, because the intensively swirled fuel cools the combustion chamber, reducing the tendency to knock.

The compressor of the new 3.0 TFSI is what is known as a Roots blower. Inside it, two four-vane rotary pistons counter-rotate at a speed of up to 23,000 rpm, with an air gap between them measuring just a few thousandths of a millimeter. The rotors can deliver 1,000 kilograms (2204.62 lb) of air per hour and force it into the combustion chambers at a boost pressure of up to 0.8 bar.

Two water-to-air intercoolers made from aluminum and connected to a separate coolant circuit are integrated into the housing. Here, the compressed and therefore heated intake air is cooled down again in order to boost its oxygen content for the combustion process. An extensive package of measures reduces the level of noise generated by the compressor to a minimum.

The engine itself belongs to Audi's family of ultramodern V engines. In addition to the standard cylinder angle of 90 degrees, their attributes include systematic lightweight construction – the three-liter version's crankcase, which is made from cast aluminum/silicon, tips the scales at just 33 kilograms (72.75 lb). The entire engine, including the compressor, weighs 189 kilograms (416.67 lb). The bore measures 84.5 millimeters (3.33 in) and the stroke 89.0 millimeters (3.5 in), producing a swept volume of 2,995 cm3.

Reinforcements on the crankcase

Audi has included a whole array of refined hi-tech features on the 3.0 TFSI. The crankcase has been adapted to the higher prevailing pressures and all components are frictionally optimized. The two intake camshafts can be adjusted through 42 degrees crankshaft angle. In the intake ports, tumble flaps induce movement in the incoming air to promote optimum mixture preparation.

The injection system is a fundamentally new design. A common rail system with six-hole injectors injects the fuel directly into the combustion chambers at a pressure of up to 150 bar. The injectors' highly dynamic response permits up to three fuel injections per operating cycle across an extensive range of the characteristic map. They, too, optimize the combustion process and therefore contribute to the impressive performance of the new 3.0 TFSI.
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      12-18-2011, 02:50 PM   #251
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Exactly. S4 has no lag and neither HPFPF of the 335i.
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      12-18-2011, 03:33 PM   #252
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FI is not possible due to space restrictions. Take a look at that engine bay and consider how low that engine is mounted. You'd have to come up with some room there. There is definitely no room for the traditional TMIC. FMIC is possible but it will be tight.
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      12-18-2011, 06:57 PM   #253
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Quote:
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FI is not possible due to space restrictions. Take a look at that engine bay and consider how low that engine is mounted. You'd have to come up with some room there. There is definitely no room for the traditional TMIC. FMIC is possible but it will be tight.
Things would be tight but I think it's feasible for at least an extra 50hp. For instance, the supercharger (Magnusson M45 Roots-type) conversion in the Elise, which gives it 30hp more, does away with the need for an intercooler and all the associated pipework, so it fits neatly into the Elise’s engine bay. Since it doesn't have an intercooler it’s also 8kg lighter than the Exige’s supercharged engine:






Intercooler placement in the Toyobaru's engine bay would be critical. Traditionally, Subaru uses a hood scoop for air-to-air top mounted intercoolers (TMIC) located on top of the engine for their turbo versions:




The Lotus Evora S, on the other hand, also has a non-intercooled Harrop HTV 1320 supercharger assembly (utilising Eaton Twin Vortex Series (TVS) Technology) BUT adds a pair of oil/water radiators mounted in the nose to cool it.

In fact, the Eaton TVS supercharger, the same as used by Audi, was designed to not use an intercooler at low to medium boost levels and, actually, the lack of an IC improves throttle response. Moreover, TRD (Toyota Racing Development) Aurion was the world's first production car to use the Eaton TVS (Twin Vortices Series) supercharger:




You can see its application on the Evora S (before and after):







And there wasn't a lot of space either in the engine bay:


Last edited by GoingTooFast; 12-18-2011 at 07:43 PM.
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      12-18-2011, 07:30 PM   #254
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Quote:
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Exactly. S4 has no lag and neither HPFPF of the 335i.
We can compare the BMW 1M twin-turbo to the supercharged Audi S4:

Engine Output:

1M................................................ ....... S4
335hp @ 5900 RPM................................. 333hp @ 5500-7000 RPM
332 lb-ft.* @ 1500-4500 RPM.................. 325 lb-ft. @ 2900-5300 RPM

*An additional 37 lb-ft of temporary torque is delivered with the standard turbo boost function.


Unladen Weight:

1M.................. S4
3362 lbs........... 3847 lbs


Fuel Economy:

1M.................. S4
19 MPG............. 18 MPG (city)
26 MPG............. 27 MPG (highway)



Both engines deliver practically the same power output from 3.0L and 6-cylinder and despite the Audi's weight disadvantage (485 lbs.) it manages to achieve the same fuel mileage as the 1M.

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      12-18-2011, 10:01 PM   #255
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Levi,

I'm sorry to disagree, but the 1M does have lag whereas in the S4 it's virtually non-existent.

That's the supercharger advantage.

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      12-18-2011, 11:57 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
FI is not possible due to space restrictions. Take a look at that engine bay and consider how low that engine is mounted. You'd have to come up with some room there. There is definitely no room for the traditional TMIC. FMIC is possible but it will be tight.
I read a review (can't find it for the life of me right now) where it said there is actually a decent amount of room between the top of the engine and the hood, approximately 4 inches or so.

If you look at this picture, you can see the engine cover that says "D4-S Boxer" on it doesn't even appear to clear the shock towers. Then when you see how much more space there is above those by looking at the fenders, it seems like they can fit a TMIC if they wanted to:

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      12-19-2011, 05:09 AM   #257
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I read a review (can't find it for the life of me right now) where it said there is actually a decent amount of room between the top of the engine and the hood, approximately 4 inches or so.

If you look at this picture, you can see the engine cover that says "D4-S Boxer" on it doesn't even appear to clear the shock towers. Then when you see how much more space there is above those by looking at the fenders, it seems like they can fit a TMIC if they wanted to:
If you look at the Eaton TVS supercharger mounted in the Evora S you realize that it takes a fair amount of height space. And, since the Toyobaru's intake manifold is necessarily on the top of the engine because of the engine's flat layout, it means that the supercharger would be on the top of the engine also. Despite the decent amount of room between the top of the engine and the hood, I don't think there's enough room for the supercharger plus the intercooler on the top of the engine.

Gladly, the Eaton TVS supercharger was designed without the need for an intercooler.
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      12-19-2011, 05:24 AM   #258
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As for the 1M against the S4 performance numbers, here they are:

1M......................... S4
155 MPH................. 155 MPH (Top Speed - electronically limited)
4.7 sec................... 4.9 sec (0-60 MPH )
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      12-19-2011, 05:49 AM   #259
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      12-19-2011, 05:54 AM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moto P
According to my emails from engineers at Nurburgring, a several months ago.

Unofficially, the stock test mule FT86 narrowly beat the lap time of the Subaru WRX Sti during testing on the Nurburgring a several months ago... I am not sure what tires were equipped for this testing, but I would imagine, with some sort of sports street tires. This was 3 weeks or so after I met with Mr.Tada, the chief engineer back in May. He did mention that it doesn't take much to post a fairly fast lap in this car as the vehicle is very communicative and predictable. And, on a course like Nordeschlife (Old North at the Nurburgring) the drivers can stay fairly confident, and push really hard, not having to entrust electronic devices and advanced traction systems.
The car is simple as a basic race car in that way, and know everything that is happening in the minutes and seconds while doing a fast lap here.

Of course, I did not get the actual time, but if the time set by a Stock WRX STi is a measure, then in the hands of a very skilled driver, the FT86 siblings can set a pretty fast lap just out of its virtues of balance, weight and design, gaining precious seconds the traditional way, with light weight, and braking/cornering prowess that is inherent to such cars.
Since the official lap record of the WRX STi (last-gen nevertheless) is 8:24, it can be inferred that the 86 can do faster than 8:24, which would make it faster than a lot of cars with much higher horsepower including the 335i (whose record stands at 8:26). However we still have to wait for official times and spacs. Do you rememberthe Impreza WRX STI that ran in 7:55 min? It was far from stock and apparently had about 400 PS.
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      12-19-2011, 08:38 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seminole View Post
I read a review (can't find it for the life of me right now) where it said there is actually a decent amount of room between the top of the engine and the hood, approximately 4 inches or so.

If you look at this picture, you can see the engine cover that says "D4-S Boxer" on it doesn't even appear to clear the shock towers. Then when you see how much more space there is above those by looking at the fenders, it seems like they can fit a TMIC if they wanted to:

I see that but.. show me a TMIC system that could fit in there. You're forgetting about all the auxiliary hardware. Subaru TMIC applications are extremely bulky in the past.. you'd have to do a ton of optimization (not saying that's impossible, just, highly unusual for Subaru).

Not only do we need to fit (a very thin) TMIC in there, we have to fit all the necessary connecting hardware, not to mention the bulky turbo inlet tube. If it does happen I will be extremely impressed (but ultimately worried about cooling).

Thinking about it now, I agree with many of the other posters here saying that a S/C would be the way to go. A turbo would be pretty silly on a car that's main focus is on track handling. Turbo would just introduce lag and heat soak. Though, I doubt we will ever see a S/C if this car is to go FI. Simply due to emissions and fuel consumption. This is still a (generally uninspired) mainstream manufacturer we are talking about here.
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      12-19-2011, 10:04 AM   #262
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In order for the Toyobaru to be faster in the Nurburgring circuit it needs a supercharger.

See the Toyota TDR Aurion engine (3.5-litre V6, port fuel injection, high compression rate of 10.8:1):







Although the Eaton supercharger unit does not require an intercooler at low to medium boost levels, the 3.0-liter V6 TFSI unit from Audi works with a boost pressure of up to 0.8 bar which is higher than the modest 0.4bar (5.5 psi) used by the TRD Aurion's engine. Therefore, two water-to-air intercoolers connected to a separate coolant circuit are integrated into the supercharger housing in the Audi's engine:







The Eaton TVS supercharger:


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      12-19-2011, 10:17 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
I see that but.. show me a TMIC system that could fit in there. You're forgetting about all the auxiliary hardware. Subaru TMIC applications are extremely bulky in the past.. you'd have to do a ton of optimization (not saying that's impossible, just, highly unusual for Subaru).

Not only do we need to fit (a very thin) TMIC in there, we have to fit all the necessary connecting hardware, not to mention the bulky turbo inlet tube. If it does happen I will be extremely impressed (but ultimately worried about cooling).

Thinking about it now, I agree with many of the other posters here saying that a S/C would be the way to go. A turbo would be pretty silly on a car that's main focus is on track handling. Turbo would just introduce lag and heat soak. Though, I doubt we will ever see a S/C if this car is to go FI. Simply due to emissions and fuel consumption. This is still a (generally uninspired) mainstream manufacturer we are talking about here.
As long as the supercharger boost pressure doesn't go above 0.4 bar (5.5 psi) - good enough for an extra 50hp (see the Evora S +69hp case) - I think it's VERY reasonable to assume that an intercooler is NOT needed in this Toyobaru, TMIC or FMIC.

With the added boost in the Evora S the power output went to 345hp from only 276hp in the non-supercharged version and without intercooler.

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 12-19-2011 at 11:48 AM.
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      12-19-2011, 10:40 AM   #264
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1999 VF BMW M3  [5.00]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
As long as the supercharger boost pressure doesn't go above 0.4 bar (5.5 psi) - good enough for an extra 50hp (see the Evora S +69hp case) - I think it's VERY reasonable to assume that an intercooler is NOT needed in this Toyobaru, TMIC or FMIC.

With the added boost in the Evora S the power output went to 345hp from only 276hp of the non-supercharged version and without intercooler.
Good point.. I just think they will not be going the S/C due to corporate image (emissions, fuel consumption, etc.) Might be a popular aftermarket mod though!!
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