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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis > Rogue Engineering rear toe arms review



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      11-27-2011, 06:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumperx View Post
Quite simple, I think you've answered your own question. If you know "the theoretical benefit of replacing bushings with ball joints", then the outcome is (what you are looking for) "steering accuracy and on-center" feedback. It just that simple.
I probably shouldn't have seemed to jump on you; it wasn't my intention. And I also didn't mean to discount your contribution, or in any way cast doubt on the performance of the part. Summarizing what others have said, as I think you were trying to do earlier, makes perfect sense and is valuable as confirmation.

Reducing deflection in the rear suspension does not always have a noticeable effect on on-center feel. For examples of this, I give you the M3 subframe bushings, rear guide link, and rear wishbone link.

Quote:
The "difference" is the spherical bearing eliminates slop and alignment changes that stock rubber bushings under load. Unlike DAFish's direction, my focus and direction was to supplement positive lateral input by changing three of links (rear guide arms, rear upper link, and rear toe arms) and at track geometry changes.
I believe it. But, to press the issue: you didn't directly observe the elimination of slop. You didn't have a camera under there, or Bubba under there, to watch the toe arm as you careened around the track. You observed something else, some effect of the slop being eliminated. I'm asking about what that effect was.

If you were to say, for example, that it feels as if there is less play, or less dead zone, in the steering at or near center -- then I would know what you're saying. If you were to say there is some (more) wiggling and writhing of the steering wheel, on center, at 110 mph -- then I would know what you're saying. If you were to say, the car reacts faster to initial steering inputs (short form: "faster turn in") -- then I would know what you're saying.

It's your description of what you actually observed, as opposed to what you deduced, that I wanted to elicit from you.

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More importantly having installed: M3 front end bits, sway bars, performance shocks, and performance tires all together contribute in how I want my car to behave. For me it wasn't just changing the rear toe links; rather, a total suspension package changes (with more upgrades to come) to meet a more "planted" feel.
This is a very important point, and I agree with you. Usually there's no one piece that has an intended effect by itself. The various parts work together to stiffen up the chassis.

It sounds like you did change the rear arms first, without the M3 subframe bushings, and were not satisfied with the result, at least on the race track but maybe on the road as well.
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      11-27-2011, 06:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFish View Post
What is NVH?

On center feel is better car track better, less tramlining

Straight line better, and no it wasn't right before but that could have been my alignment

High speed feels muchbetter
Thanks. Sounds really good. I think you have the other M3 rear links, but I will try just the toe arm first.
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      11-27-2011, 10:04 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyu View Post
Thanks. Sounds really good. I think you have the other M3 rear links, but I will try just the toe arm first.
You already replaced the most important rear link; this would be next. I doubt you'd need the M3 upper link and guide rods unless you're experiencing rear wheel hop under hard acceleration..
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      11-27-2011, 11:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyu View Post
I believe it. But, to press the issue: you didn't directly observe the elimination of slop. You didn't have a camera under there, or Bubba under there, to watch the toe arm as you careened around the track. You observed something else, some effect of the slop being eliminated. I'm asking about what that effect was.
Don't be ridiculous. You know the purpose of a heim joint. On a comparative basis to the OEM link to a RE or VM links, its' design is to eliminate the slop; rather, drastically reduce deflection. You're smart guy you know what I mean.

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Originally Posted by luckyu View Post
It's your description of what you actually observed, as opposed to what you deduced, that I wanted to elicit from you.
I think I've already answered you. I don't like to belabor the point or be vague without being laborious in this thread, in essence, asked and answered. I found the VMs links provides the positive lateral response (feedback) through a turn I'm looking for. By this, I can manage and modulate the speed into and in the turn. Then a better exist speed. For my platform, it's fine. Can it be better, yeah there's room for further improvement.

Answered your question?

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Originally Posted by luckyu View Post
It sounds like you did change the rear arms first, without the M3 subframe bushings, and were not satisfied with the result, at least on the race track but maybe on the road as well.
Yep.
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      11-27-2011, 11:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
You already replaced the most important rear link; this would be next. I doubt you'd need the M3 upper link and guide rods unless you're experiencing rear wheel hop under hard acceleration..
I have not felt wheel hop so far. I fear my car is not powerful enough to do that.

I have felt what seemed like toe out on the outside rear wheel. I was in a sweeper turn and applying moderate throttle. Tires weren't complaining, and somehow it didn't feel like slip. It was very creepy.
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      11-28-2011, 12:25 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumperx View Post
Don't be ridiculous. You know the propose of a heim joint. On a comparative basis to the OEM link to a RE or VM links, its' design is to eliminate the slop; rather, drastically reduce deflection. You're smart guy you know what I mean.
Yes I know the construction of the rod ends, and I do feel I understand what you're saying about the elimination of slop. My attempts to draw a distinction between your experience behind the steering wheel on the one hand, and the elimination of slop behind the rear wheel on the other hand, seem to frustrate you so I'll stop doing it...

Quote:
Answered your question?
I get a little more with each description you give, and I do get a sense of where you're coming from. Anyway I'm happy to move on. I appreciate your willingness to share your experience, and maybe it's because I'm not an experienced race car driver, as you are, that we can't communicate at higher bandwidth.
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      11-28-2011, 01:01 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by luckyu View Post
"... I'm not an experienced race car driver..."
Neither am I.

One thing I can highly recommend is joining NASA and start going to Thunder Hill or Infineon race tracks since you're local guy. It's nothing but a great times and a great way to sort out the suspension.
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      11-28-2011, 03:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumperx View Post
Without changing the M3 sub frame bushings, this link system will not cure the rear suspension wallow that most of us complain about. There's a drastic reduction of wallowing through moderate and sharp turns on comparative basis to a rubber bushing links. As mentioned here and other threads, I do highly recommend swapping the rear sub-frame bushings for the M3 ones first (or simultaneously) before any other suspension link upgrades.

More importantly having installed: M3 front end bits, sway bars, performance shocks, and performance tires all together contribute in how I want my car to behave. For me it wasn't just changing the rear toe links; rather, a total suspension package changes (with more upgrades to come) to meet a more "planted" feel.
This just shows how complex the modding is.. you can't just change one arm, and you have to look at your objectives of your modding.

I wanted the car to handle as good as a M3. Springs/shocks/M3 arms all round, subframe, toe links, sways and LSD in retrospect should have all been done at the same time. I wanted the car to be solid and rid myself of the understeer that I believe to be very excessive.

When I did the Dinan stage 3 - I did the front M3 arms at the same time and then the rear end was all wobbly. The LSD, rear bar, rear M3 arms when on after that and it was a massive step in fixing this - but it still wasn't right. The toe arms now have this under control.

All of this to have the massive power I have now to go in a straight line where I point it... like the M3 does.

Looking at the 335i stock parts coming off this car, I can't believe it went straight stock.... everything is rubber....

I look at the mods that Aplina has done, it doesn't suprise me he has done the signifcant amount of mods he has because he is on the track.

WHEN I go on the track, I will need to do a lot more - oil coolers, tires, brakes....
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      11-28-2011, 09:02 PM   #31
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This just shows how complex the modding is.. you can't just change one arm, and you have to look at your objectives of your modding.
Absolutely agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFish View Post
I wanted the car to handle as good as a M3. Springs/shocks/M3 arms all round, subframe, toe links, sways and LSD in retrospect should have all been done at the same time. I wanted the car to be solid and rid myself of the understeer that I believe to be very excessive.

When I did the Dinan stage 3 - I did the front M3 arms at the same time and then the rear end was all wobbly. The LSD, rear bar, rear M3 arms when on after that and it was a massive step in fixing this - but it still wasn't right. The toe arms now have this under control.

All of this to have the massive power I have now to go in a straight line where I point it... like the M3 does.
Sounds like we both went through threw same type of process. Bit here, another bit change there. All to find out, oops I'm upside down in another area. Higher amounts of power will show the flaws very quickly about a person's setup. The changes must be done evenly. Placing BKKs are just as important as the toe links.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFish View Post
Looking at the 335i stock parts coming off this car, I can't believe it went straight stock.... everything is rubber....
Here's an example of the OEM vs VM links. Plus, the OEM link looks like complete garage. The M3 links look more proper.
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      11-28-2011, 10:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumperx View Post
Absolutely agree



Sounds like we both went through threw same type of process. Bit here, another bit change there. All to find out, oops I'm upside down in another area. Higher amounts of power will show the flaws very quickly about a person's setup. The changes must be done evenly. Placing BKKs are just as important as the toe links.



Here's an example of the OEM vs VM links. Plus, the OEM link looks like complete garage. The M3 links look more proper.

With the VM arms major deflections are removed.

With oem arms, not only the bushings have large deflections, the arm itself is made to bow under load as well, not good for getting the power to the ground.
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      11-29-2011, 12:46 AM   #33
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With the VM arms major deflections are removed.

With oem arms, not only the bushings have large deflections, the arm itself is made to bow under load as well, not good for getting the power to the ground.
The M3 toe arm -- which doesn't fit our cars. What type of joint does it have? Sealed heim joint?
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      11-29-2011, 12:53 AM   #34
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The M3 toe arm -- which doesn't fit our cars. What type of joint does it have? Sealed heim joint?
Yes, very similar to it.
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      11-29-2011, 01:41 AM   #35
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Yes, very similar to it.
Thanks.
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      11-29-2011, 09:44 AM   #36
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With one of these toe arms, is NVH a guarantee?

Would the NVH be greater than an M3 (assuming you had already installed all the M3 bits)?
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      11-29-2011, 03:47 PM   #37
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With one of these toe arms, is NVH a guarantee?

Would the NVH be greater than an M3 (assuming you had already installed all the M3 bits)?
The NVH is ever so slight ( I have 3 out five links done). The degree of NVH produce is not a decision deterrent. The ratio of performance factor to NVH out weighs it.
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      11-29-2011, 07:35 PM   #38
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The NVH is ever so slight ( I have 3 out five links done). The degree of NVH produce is not a decision deterrent. The ratio of performance factor to NVH out weighs it.
Agreed. I found the ride firmed up and you can feel more NVH for sure with all the links in. I find the Koni dampers too firm though (on full soft) and this is transmitting more NVH than the arms did.

That said, it is about a 1 out of 10. You can notice it.

The handling, well that is about an 8 out of 10. Square setup would take it to a 10.
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      11-29-2011, 07:39 PM   #39
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With one of these toe arms, is NVH a guarantee?

Would the NVH be greater than an M3 (assuming you had already installed all the M3 bits)?
don't worry about NVH. It is not a concern.
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      11-29-2011, 07:44 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaybird124 View Post
With one of these toe arms, is NVH a guarantee?

Would the NVH be greater than an M3 (assuming you had already installed all the M3 bits)?
The NVH is so small and the performance outweighs it by a large margin.
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      11-29-2011, 08:51 PM   #41
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I find the Koni dampers too firm though (on full soft) and this is transmitting more NVH than the arms did.
Hmm, now here is an interesting statement. I assume you have the Koni Yellows,and you've find them too firm. Where I too have Koni Yellows, I'm constantly adjusting them to be firmer (at the same time, I do not like to be riding on a buckboard).

According to your sig, you have the Dinan Stage 3 springs and I'm on OEM Sport springs. Sounds like we may both be satisfied with BMW's Performance Springs. With their spring rate (Front: 195 lb/in Rear: 505 lb/in), it may be ideal balance.

Harold and everyone, thoughts on this comment?
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      11-29-2011, 10:03 PM   #42
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My attempts to draw a distinction between your experience behind the steering wheel on the one hand, and the elimination of slop behind the rear wheel....
Ok Luckylu, what you're asking me is to describe something that has way too many variables or event dependent. But I did encounter an experience as I was coming home this evening.

The scenario is on a high-speed transition ramp from one highway (85N) to another highway (280N). The road was banking towards the left, two vehicles in front of me and positioned in each of the two lanes. There was about a 100 ft. of spacing between the two.

I'm pushing 70-75, jumped to 90 into the banking bend left, splitting the two into the turn, passing them both . As I turned into banked road, I transferring weight on to the front right smoothly, turning, the rear felt solid and connected even with a surface transition (or bump) that stepped out the rear slightly. Via seat-of-the-pants and steering feedback, the unsettled moment still gave me a steering response that included sharpness and confidence about the rear end.

Now, I feel a fair amount of percentage of how the rear end performed and conveyed was due to the VM linkages. Hope may explain to your question about an "experience behind the steering wheel on the one hand, and the elimination of slop behind the rear wheel".
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      11-29-2011, 10:31 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumperx View Post
Hmm, now here is an interesting statement. I assume you have the Koni Yellows,and you've find them too firm. Where I too have Koni Yellows, I'm constantly adjusting them to be firmer (at the same time, I do not like to be riding on a buckboard).

According to your sig, you have the Dinan Stage 3 springs and I'm on OEM Sport springs. Sounds like we may both be satisfied with BMW's Performance Springs. With their spring rate (Front: 195 lb/in Rear: 505 lb/in), it may be ideal balance.

Harold and everyone, thoughts on this comment?
Like 'DaFish', I find the Koni's to be a little bit firm too and I've got the zsp springs. Different strokes I guess. If you feel like you're riding on a buckboard you want to turn down the rebound damping in the rear. I did and it helped improve pitch.
How do you know those are the spring rates for the BMW performance springs? Who knows what Dinan's rates are/they won't tell you.
Sorry, went OT.
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      11-29-2011, 11:21 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Thumperx View Post
Hmm, now here is an interesting statement. I assume you have the Koni Yellows,and you've find them too firm. Where I too have Koni Yellows, I'm constantly adjusting them to be firmer (at the same time, I do not like to be riding on a buckboard).

According to your sig, you have the Dinan Stage 3 springs and I'm on OEM Sport springs. Sounds like we may both be satisfied with BMW's Performance Springs. With their spring rate (Front: 195 lb/in Rear: 505 lb/in), it may be ideal balance.

Harold and everyone, thoughts on this comment?
Ya, they are custom valved Koni's by Dinan. The ride in bumper to bumper traffic going over compression joints is harsh. On the highway, going 120 kms/hour is ok. CVC was saying the same thing and he was on ZSP springs so we are ruling out the springs and blaming the shocks.

Because we have all of the M3 bits on, this gets transferred to the cabin.

Still, then handling is superbly improved - especially high speed. Cornering feel is great now.
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2008 335i E92 Black, Procede Rev 2.5 (11-1 map), BMS DCI, AR Catless DPs, AMS FMIC, Procede PWM Meth, Forge DVs, CDV delete, 230s w/ 235/265 Michelin PSS, Dinan S3 susp w/ front/rear M3 arms (4), Wavetrac LSD, Subframe bushings, Dinan Rear Sway, Rogue toe arms, Stoptech Slotted rotors, Stoptech Street pads w/ steel lines
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