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      12-13-2011, 08:14 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by briers View Post
My issue is not driver error it's tyres

Same conditions on summers not issue with traction from a standing start and certainly no traction control issues at 70mph

Later that day with winter wheels and tyres, tc intervening pulling out on roundabouts and accelerating uphill at 70mph on a dual carriageway.

That's rubbish and well within normal driving conditions. Just a few hours early, no problem.

I put it down to the softer compound, tread design and thinner 225 instead of 255 track.

It's just mental that they slip at 70mph going straight and accelerating.
I'm not at all sure what is going on with your tyres.

As you say you can lose traction so easily, I thought I'd experiment while out this morning.

Now I'm on 'skinny' Vredestein Wintrac Xtreme all round, 225/45 R17, 94V XL rating, they have covered about 2k miles.

Today the weather was horrendous, 2 - 3 degrees, sleet and snow in the heavy rain. The local roads were covered with a lots of surface water, in many places with surface water running across the road. So when I got on a section I know like the back of my hand, with straights and no traffic, decided I'd give the car some full welly.

I got the car running up a few 'extra' revs in DS, and as I pulled out of a 30mph limit gunned it, and watched for TC intervention, nothing, just the normal pull as if I was running a hot and dry summer day on my summer tyres. Won't tell you the terminal speed, but no TC intervention whatsoever, even with surface water crossing the road at places during this full on acceleration.

OK, so this isn't hard enough me thinks, so hold the car at high revs at 50 - 60mph and wait for the worst surface drain offs and gun it as I approach, again nothing in the way of TC intervention, just a full bore acceleration, I repeat this several times and I just couldn't get any TC intervention in these straight line conditions. Remember I'd never dream of driving like that in such conditions, in normal driving, even if the road is empty of other traffic.

So, I'm on 225 sections, on my E91 330d, pressures set at 2.4bar front, 2.7bar rear, set at 3-degrees. Tyres are stone cold due to all the near freezing surface water, DSC is in 'nanny' default, so if there is to be intervention I'm all set for it, at the lowest levels.

Is my car faulty? Don't think so, as last week on snow, did a bit of 'testing' for grip levels, and TC was intervening when I took it too far.

I just can't understand these low level traction issues.

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      12-13-2011, 09:24 AM   #68
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Don't forget things are more likely to go wrong when you lose traction at low revs, rather than high revs.
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      12-13-2011, 09:43 AM   #69
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      12-13-2011, 10:08 AM   #70
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I took a compromise like everyone else on tyre size with my vredestein wintrac xtremes and went for 235/40/18s all round.. Today its been around 4deg C with rain throughout the day, just started to hail.. had to pop out and the summers are still fine, though the weather reports suggest I'll need to get the winter tyres on by tomorrow/thursday.. Still not going to panic just yet the summers work with slight change in driving
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      12-13-2011, 11:29 AM   #71
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I wouldn't be too upset if I still had my summers on at the moment ... they are fine 99% of the time but obviously when temperatures are really low the winters are better ... and when it does snow of course winters are in a totally different league - as in they work
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      12-13-2011, 02:56 PM   #72
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I have had my winter tyres on both my cars a few weeks now
After scrubbing them in they seem excellent no TCS lights and
on these icy mornings have had no issues coming of my driveway
and onto the untreated side roads
Even in the rain they seem fine and equally in the dry for what they are
i have been very impressed
As they are 18's although split width they are still a lot cheaper than my 19's
and so in my eyes basically i'm saving the tread on the 19's and have more of a piece of mind on these icy morning with the winters on


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      12-13-2011, 03:19 PM   #73
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For heavens sakes.... I run company cars, drive hundreds/thousands of miles a week from Dounray to Plymouth, all year long.

I have NEVER needed winter tyres. And I have never crashed.

Is it me???
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      12-13-2011, 03:28 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by m1bjr View Post
For heavens sakes.... I run company cars, drive hundreds/thousands of miles a week from Dounray to Plymouth, all year long.

I have NEVER needed winter tyres. And I have never crashed.

Is it me???
No it's not just you,although I rather suspect we'll be pilloried and threatened with eternal damnation by the Winter tyre God.

Are you prepared?
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      12-13-2011, 04:50 PM   #75
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No it's not just you,although I rather suspect we'll be pilloried and threatened with eternal damnation by the Winter tyre God.

Are you prepared?
How dare you question the faith Ian, prepare to be smitten
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      12-13-2011, 06:07 PM   #76
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Really depends where in the UK if you live in Scotland or Northern Ireland you get a lot harsher weather than the rest of the UK
Also depends how you live close to main roads as its only the main roads here which are gritted don't know about the mainland
All i know is last year i couldnt use my car for nearly 3 weeks and i wasnt prepared to take that risk this year
Anyway for what i paid for wheels and tyres im happy with the decision to fit them and to me thats all that matters

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      12-13-2011, 06:42 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1bjr View Post
For heavens sakes.... I run company cars, drive hundreds/thousands of miles a week from Dounray to Plymouth, all year long.

I have NEVER needed winter tyres. And I have never crashed.

Is it me???
I bloody hope so - for the 15ish years I've been driving, and particularly the last 2 winters I managed to make it to work every single day where others claimed to be stranded and every corner featured a car sideways up the kerb. Never even considered winter tyres, just had ordinary summer tyres with plenty of tread on a FWD car.

I only bought into the whole winter tyre thing because this car is RWD and I can't afford not to make it to work. I'm honestly surprised with what Pete has said about not noticing a difference - I noticed an immediate loss in grip as soon as I'd fitted my winters, and even 1000 miles later when they're well scrubbed in, slip roads, roundabouts and junctions where I'd previously had no problems are lighting up the TC light - and that's not driving like a loon, just accelerating normally.

I really hope we get enough bad weather this winter to help me justify to myself buying a second set of wheels and living with the compromised grip so far.

Kumho KW27 in standard sizes, if it makes any difference...
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      12-14-2011, 02:40 AM   #78
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Playing the odds

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1bjr View Post
For heavens sakes.... I run company cars, drive hundreds/thousands of miles a week from Dounray to Plymouth, all year long.

I have NEVER needed winter tyres. And I have never crashed.

Is it me???

I live in the North East and I couldn't drive for 3 or 4 weeks last winter. Then when I could drive I had to watch out for snow, ice and even the hint of an incline. I had problems pulling out of my road onto a fairly busy roundabout (from icy to non icy suface...very hairy). Supermarket car parks were a nightmare. If I stopped on an icy, irregular surface I had major problems getting started again.

What you're doing is playing the odds. The odds of having a skid related accident are probably >100x higher with summer vs. winter tyres in deteriorating conditions. Personally I do things that stack the odds in my favour, like fitting winter tyres. Winter tyres moved my BMW from one of the worst cars on the road to one of the best and removed a huge amount of angst from driving in slippery conditions.

The performance of the car was maybe 20% less in terms of handling on dry roads but the car felt safe in all conditions, which it most certainly did not with summer tyres. It was also nice to get to March and refit my Summer wheels, like the first snowdrops...a feeling that winter was losing its grip and 6 nations Rugby was about to start.

Driving with summer tyres on the UKs winter roads is really just a high risk activity without any thrill. And even the money saving aspect is wiped out with the first minor slide into a kerb.

Last edited by SteveC; 12-14-2011 at 02:49 AM.
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      12-14-2011, 03:56 AM   #79
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One thing I have noticed on winters is an odd floaty sensation when driving around motorway bends at 70-80 mph. Also yesterday I was cornering at around 50 mph on a dual carriage way and I swear the car felt as though it was starting to slide, it wasn't icy and a white van went flying past me at 60-70 mph on the same bend, very worrying.

Other than that I have noticed much better traction in the damp driving round town than I did on my michelin pilot sports RFT. I'm on falken winters.
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      12-14-2011, 05:39 AM   #80
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Winter or Cold weather Tyres are a no brainer,esecially if you drive a rwd car.I fitted avon ice tourer's on my 1'er last winter and it was the best thing i could have done.
The difference over the summer tyres was night&day and not just in snow, but on cold wet slushy roads.

This winter i am running on 225/45 R17's hankook ice bears on my E92.Summer tyres,especially rft's are next to useless on a rwd car once the mercury drops below 7*c.

Winter tyres have more natural rubber in their compound for optimum grip in cold/wet weather conditions.

Stay safe Folk's..
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      12-14-2011, 12:37 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by briers View Post
I put it down to the softer compound, tread design and thinner 225 instead of 255 track.
You've got significantly less rubber connecting you to the road now. If you suddenly switched to 225 summer tyres you'd probably be saying the same thing.

We had this debate some months ago about whether thinner tyres were the right thing to do. I firmly believe it is not the right thing. The only instance when the thinner tyre is good is in proper snow, all other conditions (ie 99.9% of the time the tyres will be on the car) the proper size rears are better.

I put my winters (255 rears) on last weekend and have found the grip levels to be much better than I was expecting, from a standing start in the wet, I'd even say there was more grip than the Contis that just came off.
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      12-14-2011, 01:16 PM   #82
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woke up this morning i have 19inch 265 conti sport contact 3's on the back, so summer tyres, very heavy hail-stones shower this morning which left 1cm of sleet or ice, took the 5 series out to take the kids to school and i must say i was very happy most worrying bit was going down the steep hill as i was skidding on ice but grip wise i faired much better than other cars who just floor it, my car is a auto and i had DTC off
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      12-14-2011, 04:52 PM   #83
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You've got significantly less rubber connecting you to the road now. If you suddenly switched to 225 summer tyres you'd probably be saying the same thing.

We had this debate some months ago about whether thinner tyres were the right thing to do. I firmly believe it is not the right thing. The only instance when the thinner tyre is good is in proper snow, all other conditions (ie 99.9% of the time the tyres will be on the car) the proper size rears are better.

I put my winters (255 rears) on last weekend and have found the grip levels to be much better than I was expecting, from a standing start in the wet, I'd even say there was more grip than the Contis that just came off.
I agree a 225 profile has significantly thinner contact patch. Doesn't seem to work with my car. One thing I have always been impressed with is it's ability to get 300bhp onto the tarmac without drama. Only on the wide summers.

I went thinner as I thought it would be an advantage in heavy snow. I travel to west Wales over devils pass which can suffer from heavy snow and I would hate to get stuck there over winter.

However the d handled the snow and ice like it wasn't even there so I'm thinking of swapping to a second set of 230s with winters fitted.
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      12-14-2011, 05:11 PM   #84
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I'm also a West Wales visitor! I have to travel to Haverfordwest on an fairly regular basis for work.

A wide wheel with a winter tyre will still work plenty well in deep snow. In the big snow last year I had winters on my M3 (which has an even wider profile than our E9Xs) and it drove through deep snow with no bother at all.
My E90 with summer tyres was stuck at the end of the street, even my wife's car with skinny all weather tyres only made it out of our estate with a 2 man push.....
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      01-11-2012, 05:15 PM   #85
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I've had a couple of loan cars from the bmw garage in the last couple of weeks.

I had a 320d executive, which was an SE with different door sill plates as far as I could see.

On damp roads about 5-7 degrees the car felt fine.

This week it's a 120d M Sport with the very same pirreli winter tyres, in the same conditions and it's totally different.

You can feel the car squirm, roll and struggle for grip.

I wonder how much the stiffer suspension has to play in this.

Still not been any need for winter tyres up here yet. It's been a really good winter so far!
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      01-11-2012, 06:17 PM   #86
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Been a good winter for everyone who said "winter tyres are rubbish"

Despite my one morning of smugness, I feel cheated - I want to see others stuck in the snow while I sail past!
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      01-12-2012, 04:26 AM   #87
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I put a lot more pressure in my tyres and the squirming has almost gone. Just a little over max based on door placard.
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      01-12-2012, 04:29 AM   #88
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Despite my one morning of smugness, I feel cheated - I want to see others stuck in the snow while I sail past!
Same here! I want weather chaos of biblical proportions! More specifically I want 700 quids worth of snow
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