E90Post
 


TNT Racewerks
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK Technical Forum > Ridiculous on winters



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-13-2011, 08:14 AM   #67
HighlandPete
Brigadier General
59
Rep
4,703
Posts

 
Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by briers View Post
My issue is not driver error it's tyres

Same conditions on summers not issue with traction from a standing start and certainly no traction control issues at 70mph

Later that day with winter wheels and tyres, tc intervening pulling out on roundabouts and accelerating uphill at 70mph on a dual carriageway.

That's rubbish and well within normal driving conditions. Just a few hours early, no problem.

I put it down to the softer compound, tread design and thinner 225 instead of 255 track.

It's just mental that they slip at 70mph going straight and accelerating.
I'm not at all sure what is going on with your tyres.

As you say you can lose traction so easily, I thought I'd experiment while out this morning.

Now I'm on 'skinny' Vredestein Wintrac Xtreme all round, 225/45 R17, 94V XL rating, they have covered about 2k miles.

Today the weather was horrendous, 2 - 3 degrees, sleet and snow in the heavy rain. The local roads were covered with a lots of surface water, in many places with surface water running across the road. So when I got on a section I know like the back of my hand, with straights and no traffic, decided I'd give the car some full welly.

I got the car running up a few 'extra' revs in DS, and as I pulled out of a 30mph limit gunned it, and watched for TC intervention, nothing, just the normal pull as if I was running a hot and dry summer day on my summer tyres. Won't tell you the terminal speed, but no TC intervention whatsoever, even with surface water crossing the road at places during this full on acceleration.

OK, so this isn't hard enough me thinks, so hold the car at high revs at 50 - 60mph and wait for the worst surface drain offs and gun it as I approach, again nothing in the way of TC intervention, just a full bore acceleration, I repeat this several times and I just couldn't get any TC intervention in these straight line conditions. Remember I'd never dream of driving like that in such conditions, in normal driving, even if the road is empty of other traffic.

So, I'm on 225 sections, on my E91 330d, pressures set at 2.4bar front, 2.7bar rear, set at 3-degrees. Tyres are stone cold due to all the near freezing surface water, DSC is in 'nanny' default, so if there is to be intervention I'm all set for it, at the lowest levels.

Is my car faulty? Don't think so, as last week on snow, did a bit of 'testing' for grip levels, and TC was intervening when I took it too far.

I just can't understand these low level traction issues.

HighlandPete
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2011, 09:24 AM   #68
kaishang
Colonel
25
Rep
2,198
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 E90 330d
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London

iTrader: (0)

Don't forget things are more likely to go wrong when you lose traction at low revs, rather than high revs.
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2011, 09:43 AM   #69
dmt335d
Private
dmt335d's Avatar
1
Rep
79
Posts

 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2006 BMW 335d  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by willhollin View Post
Why are you sending him PMs?
He wants me to go out on a date... is he ok?

I've replied!!
__________________

2006 335d M Sport.
Recently Detailed
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2011, 10:08 AM   #70
Mr Singh
Banned
United Kingdom
17
Rep
773
Posts

 
Drives: E91 330D M Sport Auto
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Milton Keynes

iTrader: (3)

I took a compromise like everyone else on tyre size with my vredestein wintrac xtremes and went for 235/40/18s all round.. Today its been around 4deg C with rain throughout the day, just started to hail.. had to pop out and the summers are still fine, though the weather reports suggest I'll need to get the winter tyres on by tomorrow/thursday.. Still not going to panic just yet the summers work with slight change in driving
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2011, 11:29 AM   #71
SO8
Captain
7
Rep
672
Posts

 
Drives: Z4 35iS
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

I wouldn't be too upset if I still had my summers on at the moment ... they are fine 99% of the time but obviously when temperatures are really low the winters are better ... and when it does snow of course winters are in a totally different league - as in they work
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2011, 02:56 PM   #72
S.GRAY
Private
0
Rep
51
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: N.IRELAND

iTrader: (0)

I have had my winter tyres on both my cars a few weeks now
After scrubbing them in they seem excellent no TCS lights and
on these icy mornings have had no issues coming of my driveway
and onto the untreated side roads
Even in the rain they seem fine and equally in the dry for what they are
i have been very impressed
As they are 18's although split width they are still a lot cheaper than my 19's
and so in my eyes basically i'm saving the tread on the 19's and have more of a piece of mind on these icy morning with the winters on


Sean
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2011, 03:19 PM   #73
m1bjr
LSD - No, you're not seeing things
m1bjr's Avatar
United Kingdom
37
Rep
3,313
Posts

 
Drives: RS250 CUP
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Somerset UK

iTrader: (4)

Send a message via MSN to m1bjr
For heavens sakes.... I run company cars, drive hundreds/thousands of miles a week from Dounray to Plymouth, all year long.

I have NEVER needed winter tyres. And I have never crashed.

Is it me???
__________________
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2011, 03:28 PM   #74
Hotcoupe
Major General
Hotcoupe's Avatar
United Kingdom
70
Rep
6,105
Posts

 
Drives: Don't know yet!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by m1bjr View Post
For heavens sakes.... I run company cars, drive hundreds/thousands of miles a week from Dounray to Plymouth, all year long.

I have NEVER needed winter tyres. And I have never crashed.

Is it me???
No it's not just you,although I rather suspect we'll be pilloried and threatened with eternal damnation by the Winter tyre God.

Are you prepared?
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2011, 04:50 PM   #75
ed335d
Major General
ed335d's Avatar
United Kingdom
81
Rep
6,899
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Surrey, UK

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
57 e92 M3  [5.00]
2008 e92 335d  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotcoupe View Post
No it's not just you,although I rather suspect we'll be pilloried and threatened with eternal damnation by the Winter tyre God.

Are you prepared?
How dare you question the faith Ian, prepare to be smitten
__________________
E92 M3, Jerez Black, Fox Red Novillo, 19'' M Double Spoke, folding mirrors, lumbar support, front seat heating, PDC, USB, DAB, EDC, Bluetooth, Logic 7, High Gloss Shadowline, big smile
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2011, 06:07 PM   #76
S.GRAY
Private
0
Rep
51
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: N.IRELAND

iTrader: (0)

Really depends where in the UK if you live in Scotland or Northern Ireland you get a lot harsher weather than the rest of the UK
Also depends how you live close to main roads as its only the main roads here which are gritted don't know about the mainland
All i know is last year i couldnt use my car for nearly 3 weeks and i wasnt prepared to take that risk this year
Anyway for what i paid for wheels and tyres im happy with the decision to fit them and to me thats all that matters

Sean
Appreciate 0
      12-13-2011, 06:42 PM   #77
parapaul
Colonel
parapaul's Avatar
United Kingdom
38
Rep
2,216
Posts

 
Drives: E91 330d M Sport
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Stoke on Trent

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by m1bjr View Post
For heavens sakes.... I run company cars, drive hundreds/thousands of miles a week from Dounray to Plymouth, all year long.

I have NEVER needed winter tyres. And I have never crashed.

Is it me???
I bloody hope so - for the 15ish years I've been driving, and particularly the last 2 winters I managed to make it to work every single day where others claimed to be stranded and every corner featured a car sideways up the kerb. Never even considered winter tyres, just had ordinary summer tyres with plenty of tread on a FWD car.

I only bought into the whole winter tyre thing because this car is RWD and I can't afford not to make it to work. I'm honestly surprised with what Pete has said about not noticing a difference - I noticed an immediate loss in grip as soon as I'd fitted my winters, and even 1000 miles later when they're well scrubbed in, slip roads, roundabouts and junctions where I'd previously had no problems are lighting up the TC light - and that's not driving like a loon, just accelerating normally.

I really hope we get enough bad weather this winter to help me justify to myself buying a second set of wheels and living with the compromised grip so far.

Kumho KW27 in standard sizes, if it makes any difference...
__________________
Just how many Yorkshire sheep can you fit inside one exhaust?
Appreciate 0
      12-14-2011, 02:40 AM   #78
SteveC
Captain
United Kingdom
13
Rep
888
Posts

 
Drives: M135i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North East

iTrader: (1)

Playing the odds

Quote:
Originally Posted by m1bjr View Post
For heavens sakes.... I run company cars, drive hundreds/thousands of miles a week from Dounray to Plymouth, all year long.

I have NEVER needed winter tyres. And I have never crashed.

Is it me???

I live in the North East and I couldn't drive for 3 or 4 weeks last winter. Then when I could drive I had to watch out for snow, ice and even the hint of an incline. I had problems pulling out of my road onto a fairly busy roundabout (from icy to non icy suface...very hairy). Supermarket car parks were a nightmare. If I stopped on an icy, irregular surface I had major problems getting started again.

What you're doing is playing the odds. The odds of having a skid related accident are probably >100x higher with summer vs. winter tyres in deteriorating conditions. Personally I do things that stack the odds in my favour, like fitting winter tyres. Winter tyres moved my BMW from one of the worst cars on the road to one of the best and removed a huge amount of angst from driving in slippery conditions.

The performance of the car was maybe 20% less in terms of handling on dry roads but the car felt safe in all conditions, which it most certainly did not with summer tyres. It was also nice to get to March and refit my Summer wheels, like the first snowdrops...a feeling that winter was losing its grip and 6 nations Rugby was about to start.

Driving with summer tyres on the UKs winter roads is really just a high risk activity without any thrill. And even the money saving aspect is wiped out with the first minor slide into a kerb.

Last edited by SteveC; 12-14-2011 at 02:49 AM.
Appreciate 0
      12-14-2011, 03:56 AM   #79
wayne71
First Lieutenant
7
Rep
381
Posts

 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: May 2009
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

One thing I have noticed on winters is an odd floaty sensation when driving around motorway bends at 70-80 mph. Also yesterday I was cornering at around 50 mph on a dual carriage way and I swear the car felt as though it was starting to slide, it wasn't icy and a white van went flying past me at 60-70 mph on the same bend, very worrying.

Other than that I have noticed much better traction in the damp driving round town than I did on my michelin pilot sports RFT. I'm on falken winters.
Appreciate 0
      12-14-2011, 05:39 AM   #80
CJ92
Private
United Kingdom
0
Rep
59
Posts

 
Drives: S3 8P
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Kent

iTrader: (0)

Winter or Cold weather Tyres are a no brainer,esecially if you drive a rwd car.I fitted avon ice tourer's on my 1'er last winter and it was the best thing i could have done.
The difference over the summer tyres was night&day and not just in snow, but on cold wet slushy roads.

This winter i am running on 225/45 R17's hankook ice bears on my E92.Summer tyres,especially rft's are next to useless on a rwd car once the mercury drops below 7*c.

Winter tyres have more natural rubber in their compound for optimum grip in cold/wet weather conditions.

Stay safe Folk's..
Appreciate 0
      12-14-2011, 12:37 PM   #81
chris_s1
Major
United Kingdom
17
Rep
1,087
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 E92 335d MSport
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Swindon, UK

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2012 E92 335d  [4.33]
Quote:
Originally Posted by briers View Post
I put it down to the softer compound, tread design and thinner 225 instead of 255 track.
You've got significantly less rubber connecting you to the road now. If you suddenly switched to 225 summer tyres you'd probably be saying the same thing.

We had this debate some months ago about whether thinner tyres were the right thing to do. I firmly believe it is not the right thing. The only instance when the thinner tyre is good is in proper snow, all other conditions (ie 99.9% of the time the tyres will be on the car) the proper size rears are better.

I put my winters (255 rears) on last weekend and have found the grip levels to be much better than I was expecting, from a standing start in the wet, I'd even say there was more grip than the Contis that just came off.
__________________
2012 Alpine White E92 335d M Sport LCI | Coral Red Dakota Leather | Media Package - BMW Professional | 313 Wheels | Evolved |
Previously - 2009 Alpine White 325d M Sport LCI | Auto + Paddles | Media Package - BMW Professional | BMW Performance Front, Sideskirts and 313P Wheels | Black Grilles |
Carbon Black E46 ///M3 '04 | Manual | Evolved |

Last edited by chris_s1; 12-14-2011 at 02:14 PM.
Appreciate 0
      12-14-2011, 01:16 PM   #82
jjbirch530d
Banned
1
Rep
103
Posts

 
Drives: bmw 5 series
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: n devon

iTrader: (0)

woke up this morning i have 19inch 265 conti sport contact 3's on the back, so summer tyres, very heavy hail-stones shower this morning which left 1cm of sleet or ice, took the 5 series out to take the kids to school and i must say i was very happy most worrying bit was going down the steep hill as i was skidding on ice but grip wise i faired much better than other cars who just floor it, my car is a auto and i had DTC off
Appreciate 0
      12-14-2011, 04:52 PM   #83
briers
Ben
briers's Avatar
United Kingdom
34
Rep
1,971
Posts

 
Drives: XFR
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Midlands,UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_s1 View Post
You've got significantly less rubber connecting you to the road now. If you suddenly switched to 225 summer tyres you'd probably be saying the same thing.

We had this debate some months ago about whether thinner tyres were the right thing to do. I firmly believe it is not the right thing. The only instance when the thinner tyre is good is in proper snow, all other conditions (ie 99.9% of the time the tyres will be on the car) the proper size rears are better.

I put my winters (255 rears) on last weekend and have found the grip levels to be much better than I was expecting, from a standing start in the wet, I'd even say there was more grip than the Contis that just came off.
I agree a 225 profile has significantly thinner contact patch. Doesn't seem to work with my car. One thing I have always been impressed with is it's ability to get 300bhp onto the tarmac without drama. Only on the wide summers.

I went thinner as I thought it would be an advantage in heavy snow. I travel to west Wales over devils pass which can suffer from heavy snow and I would hate to get stuck there over winter.

However the d handled the snow and ice like it wasn't even there so I'm thinking of swapping to a second set of 230s with winters fitted.
Appreciate 0
      12-14-2011, 05:11 PM   #84
chris_s1
Major
United Kingdom
17
Rep
1,087
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 E92 335d MSport
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Swindon, UK

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2012 E92 335d  [4.33]
I'm also a West Wales visitor! I have to travel to Haverfordwest on an fairly regular basis for work.

A wide wheel with a winter tyre will still work plenty well in deep snow. In the big snow last year I had winters on my M3 (which has an even wider profile than our E9Xs) and it drove through deep snow with no bother at all.
My E90 with summer tyres was stuck at the end of the street, even my wife's car with skinny all weather tyres only made it out of our estate with a 2 man push.....
__________________
2012 Alpine White E92 335d M Sport LCI | Coral Red Dakota Leather | Media Package - BMW Professional | 313 Wheels | Evolved |
Previously - 2009 Alpine White 325d M Sport LCI | Auto + Paddles | Media Package - BMW Professional | BMW Performance Front, Sideskirts and 313P Wheels | Black Grilles |
Carbon Black E46 ///M3 '04 | Manual | Evolved |
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2012, 05:15 PM   #85
Kerr
Brigadier General
Scotland
46
Rep
3,723
Posts

 
Drives: 08' 335i Coupe
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Aberdeen

iTrader: (0)

I've had a couple of loan cars from the bmw garage in the last couple of weeks.

I had a 320d executive, which was an SE with different door sill plates as far as I could see.

On damp roads about 5-7 degrees the car felt fine.

This week it's a 120d M Sport with the very same pirreli winter tyres, in the same conditions and it's totally different.

You can feel the car squirm, roll and struggle for grip.

I wonder how much the stiffer suspension has to play in this.

Still not been any need for winter tyres up here yet. It's been a really good winter so far!
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2012, 06:17 PM   #86
parapaul
Colonel
parapaul's Avatar
United Kingdom
38
Rep
2,216
Posts

 
Drives: E91 330d M Sport
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Stoke on Trent

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Been a good winter for everyone who said "winter tyres are rubbish"

Despite my one morning of smugness, I feel cheated - I want to see others stuck in the snow while I sail past!
__________________
Just how many Yorkshire sheep can you fit inside one exhaust?
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2012, 04:26 AM   #87
briers
Ben
briers's Avatar
United Kingdom
34
Rep
1,971
Posts

 
Drives: XFR
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Midlands,UK

iTrader: (0)

I put a lot more pressure in my tyres and the squirming has almost gone. Just a little over max based on door placard.
Appreciate 0
      01-12-2012, 04:29 AM   #88
rich1068
has left the building
United Kingdom
54
Rep
3,363
Posts

 
Drives: F30 330d M Sport
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by parapaul View Post
Despite my one morning of smugness, I feel cheated - I want to see others stuck in the snow while I sail past!
Same here! I want weather chaos of biblical proportions! More specifically I want 700 quids worth of snow
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST