E90Post
 


Lux Angel Eyes
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > THE MOST RECKLESS BMW DEALERSHIP IN THE USA... and their lawyers..



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-01-2012, 02:41 PM   #441
arguru
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Az

Posts: 32
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bargamon View Post
Like watching a hyped up movie only to realize it gone amuck!

The ending sucked.

Looks like the OP went to far and realized there was no where to go.

No money, No lemonization, no buyback of conspiracy tainted danger car and no love.

Sounds like a lawyer got to smack him down and get real.

Car got fixed and I suppose all is happy.

In the end, no fireball ending and no class action heroics.

Maybe its for the best.

You want action? Go watch Transformers. I don't think you're gonna get what you're looking for from this.

Last edited by arguru; 04-12-2012 at 11:07 PM.
arguru is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-03-2012, 01:58 AM   #442
SantaMonica335i
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: '07 335i Coupe
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 40
iTrader: (0)

I still have a hard time believing that a mechanically linked steering system gets disabled due to an electronic or other system problem. I can see power steering going out but that would only make steering harder. Are our cars fly by wire and i'm not aware?
SantaMonica335i is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-03-2012, 07:45 AM   #443
MDyDinanM
OIF Veteran
 
MDyDinanM's Avatar
 
Drives: ///M
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: East Coast

Posts: 2,085
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M5  [3.44]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bargamon View Post
Like watching a hyped up movie only to realize it gone amuck!

The ending sucked.

Looks like the OP went to far and realized there was no where to go.

No money, No lemonization, no buyback of conspiracy tainted danger car and no penske love.

Sounds like a lawyer got to smack him down and get real.

Car got fixed and I suppose all is happy.

In the end, no fireball ending and no class action heroics.

Maybe its for the best.
Did you even read the thread? I'm sorry, but your comments are ignorant of the facts.

It was never about money in the first place, or a lawsuit. Secondly, no lawyer "smacked" him down.

Third, there was a lot going on behind the scenes of the nasty business Penske and the dealership was trying to do to the OP, that out of maturity, the OP didn't post on here. Only few are privy to that info.

I think you deserve one of these:

---------

Arguru don't let the peanut gallery get to you, we know the truth!
__________________
Retired: '06 BMW E46 ///M3
Current: '08 BMW E60 DINAN ///M5, Interlagos Blue, SMG
DINAN Stage 2 Suspension, Exhaust, Stage III Software, Front strut braces,
Intakes, 13% Underdrive pulley, 3.91 Differential, RPI Scoops.
MDyDinanM is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-03-2012, 09:31 AM   #444
DnA Diesel
Major
 
Drives: 09 335d Sport SGrey/Blk/Blk
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

Posts: 1,101
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaMonica335i View Post
I still have a hard time believing that a mechanically linked steering system gets disabled due to an electronic or other system problem. I can see power steering going out but that would only make steering harder. Are our cars fly by wire and i'm not aware?
If you have ActiveSteering, there is a question about a possible failure mode of the electric motor and/or its controller within the steering assembly and potential lack of steering control.

In a nutshell, there is a planetary gear assembly in the steering column. There is an electric motor connected to the outer ring gear of the planetary gear set via a worm gear. When the steering control logic determines that standard rate steering is best for the driving conditions, the electric motor spins to keep the planetary outer ring gear aligned with the upper steering column (and steering wheel) such that movement of the steering wheel provides a linear movement of the steering rack, thus front wheels. At low speed where a higher ratio is required, i.e. manoeuvring like parking, etc..., the electric motor spins the ring gear faster than the steering column, resulting in the steering rack rotating the front wheels through a greater angle relative to the steering wheel's movement. Conversely, at high speeds where a lower steering ratio is desired in order to enhance stability, the electric motor under drives (in some cases, BMW videos even show reverse drive of the planetary ring gear) the outer ring gear relative to the steering column input, resulting in less movement of the front wheels relative to steering wheel input.

More benign failure modes of the active steering would likely be failure of the electric motor itself, such that steering output would revert close to or back to a linear, unmodified steering ratio.

The thoughts by some, myself included, is that a more insidious failure of the
active steering control module could actually drive the electric motor in a partially, or completely uncontrolled manner, potentially modifying drastically not only the steering ratio, but the nominal centering point of the steering assembly itself. Such a failure would be characterised by erratic and seemingly (to the driver) uncontrolled steering action, including a steering wheel where the "straight forward" position may actually occur with the steering wheel offset significantly from the perfect straight up position.

Of particular interest is the effect of the failure of the steering angle sensor, or the "SZL" module. This module was confirmed to have failed on arguru's vehicle. As others have noted, the car can only diagnose itself and store a code for operational or failure modes that were anticipated and planned for by BMW's engineers. Other failure modes that may, or might not even throw a code, still have the potential to cause apparently uncontrolled behaviour.

Folks who write such discussion above off as "musings" that were 'unreasonable' or uneducated' would be wrong. While BMW is no doubt a big company with undoubtedly thousands of competent and highly trained engineers, all trying to contribute to a well made product, that does not mean that they get things perfect. Nobody gets things perfect. There will always be some system with a potential unanticipated failure mode that the engineers, as diligent as they were, did not, or perhaps could not have foreseen.

Personal case in point, in my day job I pilot aircraft, and years ago, I was flying an aircraft model made by the largest aerospace manufacturer on the planet, i.e. lots of good, conscientious, well-trained engineers. At one point during the flight, rather close to the ground, I had an un-commanded flight control output that pretty much pitched the nose down towards the ground. Pulling the control stick back as one would do in normal operation did not result in the desired reaction by the aircraft. Long story short, but disabling some other systems then using controls in an unconventional manner, the aircraft captain and I (co-pilot at the time) regained control of the aircraft and recovered without further incident. Aside from about 30 folks needing to do some laundry that day, we provided a report to the manufacturer about what had happened, and after their assessment of what happened, the particular aircraft's flight manual was modified to include detailed procedure on recovering control from condition X.

The point is, the manufacturer had designed a system that they quite reasonably thought to have been designed in a fail-proof mode. My aircraft captain and I (and some other crews elsewhere, it turned out) had found a particular condition where the flight control behaviour did not occur as intended. The manufacturer's engineers analyzed the failure mode, and embodied modifications and amended the flight manual to include appropriate actions to minimize the probability of, and to correctly react to the situation.

I see no reason why a fundamentally similar situation could not happen in this case. Engineers design an improved system, believing the potential disadvantages of a more complex system are outweighed by the advantages of increased control. There is a potential failure mode that is not identified, not through incompetency, but just the nature of design in an increasingly complex world. Test plans are established to ensure safety and performance, but they can't catch 100% of the problems, 100% of the time.

What is at issue here was the manner in which the original poster was dealt with by the vendor dealer, and then, it would appear by BMW themselves.

I feel for arguru, because I know that if the aerospace company that made my aircraft had tried to blow our crew (and operating organization) off with an "it didn't happen as you say...it couldn't, we know, we built the aircraft" I'd be pretty pissed off. The company didn't though, it dealt with the issue immediately and without blame to us or any other crew that believed we had experienced something unintended by the OEM.

My appreciation is that is all that arguru is looking for: acknowledgement of his occurrence and a willingness by, at this point, BMW (I would write off any dealings with the dealer in question - it just seems like an organization that has very little sense in the appreciation of customers, any and all customers) to assess his car's behaviour to indeed see if there is a greater issue, a safety issue, with the Active Steering potentially failing in a manner that BMW had not previously identified.

Mein zwei pfenning,
D.
__________________
2009 335d Sport - Space Grey, Gloss Black on Black Leather (pics)

DnA Diesel is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      02-03-2012, 09:45 AM   #445
MDyDinanM
OIF Veteran
 
MDyDinanM's Avatar
 
Drives: ///M
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: East Coast

Posts: 2,085
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M5  [3.44]
/\



well said. Probably one of the best comments on this thread.
__________________
Retired: '06 BMW E46 ///M3
Current: '08 BMW E60 DINAN ///M5, Interlagos Blue, SMG
DINAN Stage 2 Suspension, Exhaust, Stage III Software, Front strut braces,
Intakes, 13% Underdrive pulley, 3.91 Differential, RPI Scoops.
MDyDinanM is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-08-2012, 02:37 PM   #446
Bargamon
Captain
 
Bargamon's Avatar
 
Drives: 07' e92 328i 6MT sport
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NorthCarolina

Posts: 949
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdyaman View Post
Did you even read the thread? I'm sorry, but your comments are ignorant of the facts.

It was never about money in the first place, or a lawsuit. Secondly, no lawyer "smacked" him down.

Third, there was a lot going on behind the scenes of the nasty business Penske and the dealership was trying to do to the OP, that out of maturity, the OP didn't post on here. Only few are privy to that info.

I think you deserve one of these:

---------

Arguru don't let the peanut gallery get to you, we know the truth!
I read the whole thread.

The emtioncom thing hurt my eye less than reading the OP's emotional Tampon of attention.

The whole thing he used the leverage of sympathy by employing the social media without the other side able to defend itself.

Im glad the dude got his car fixed.
Bargamon is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-08-2012, 02:39 PM   #447
apme123
First Lieutenant
 
apme123's Avatar
 
Drives: 2002 Honda S2000
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA

Posts: 321
iTrader: (0)

this threads back, back again, shandy's back tell a friend

lol
__________________
apme123 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-08-2012, 02:58 PM   #448
DoD74
Private First Class
 
DoD74's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 BMW 335i Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dallas

Posts: 136
iTrader: (0)

I had a similar situation a few years back with a tire recall on a 2005 E60, and when the dealership failed to address the issue I called BMW North American offices and they immediately resolved the issue for me. My advice to anyone with dealership issues is to report your dealership to BMW's home office. I have thankfully had very few issues in my 15 year relationship with BMW, but on the occasions that I have, once I escalate to BMW NA within a day or two a local dealership will call me begging for an opportunity to resolve whatever my issue is. I am sorry that you were treated that way, and happy to read that it was resolved. Regardless of the brand, treating a customer like that is inexcusable, especially when safety is an issue.
__________________
BMW History:
2000 328iS|2002 E39 530i|2005 E60 530i|2007 328i Coupe|2009 335i Coupe|2012 335i Coupe
DoD74 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-08-2012, 03:03 PM   #449
FwdFtl
Volcano Knuckles
 
Drives: E60
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Cali

Posts: 249
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by archangel4865 View Post
I had a similar situation a few years back with a tire recall on a2005 E60, and when the dealership failed me I called BMW North American offices and they immediately resolved the issue for me. My advice to anyone with dealership issues is to report your dealership to BMW's home office. I have thankfully had very few issues in my 15 year relationship with BMW, but on the occasions that I have, once I escalate to BMW NA within a day or two a local dealership will call me begging for an opportunity to resolve whatever my issue is. I am sorry that you were treated that way, and happy to read that it was resolved. Regardless of the brand, treating a customer like that is inexcusable, especially when safety is an issue.
In other words, what you're really saying is TL;DR
FwdFtl is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-08-2012, 03:13 PM   #450
MMXI
New Member
 
MMXI's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 LeMans Blue xdriveM
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NY

Posts: 11
iTrader: (0)

Call Bmw Of North America

i had an issue with a noise coming from my car when coming to a stop when the car only had 200 miles on it. after 3 weeks being at the dealer and dealer kept giving me the car back UNFIXED i called north america and demanded to do a lease return. they tried telling me that their lawyer is gonna call me but in the end i got my 3200 dollar down payment back because after 5 weeks of research and a specialty tech from north america inspected my car...they found a water pump problem

dont waste your time call BME of NORTH AMERICA AND OPEN A CLAIM...then call them every 2 days and annoy the F@@@ otta them until they do something about it...
MMXI is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-08-2012, 03:17 PM   #451
driverman
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2008 E90 328i 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: El Dorado Hills, CA

Posts: 589
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DnA Diesel View Post
If you have ActiveSteering, there is a question about a possible failure mode of the electric motor and/or its controller within the steering assembly and potential lack of steering control.

...

Folks who write such discussion above off as "musings" that were 'unreasonable' or uneducated' would be wrong. While BMW is no doubt a big company with undoubtedly thousands of competent and highly trained engineers, all trying to contribute to a well made product, that does not mean that they get things perfect. Nobody gets things perfect. There will always be some system with a potential unanticipated failure mode that the engineers, as diligent as they were, did not, or perhaps could not have foreseen.

...

I see no reason why a fundamentally similar situation could not happen in this case. Engineers design an improved system, believing the potential disadvantages of a more complex system are outweighed by the advantages of increased control. There is a potential failure mode that is not identified, not through incompetency, but just the nature of design in an increasingly complex world. Test plans are established to ensure safety and performance, but they can't catch 100% of the problems, 100% of the time.

D.
Great post! Thanks.

I've been an engineer for 40 years and concluded that the harder you try to handle every possible scenario, the more you increase complexity, which in turns makes it more difficult to fully understand and test, which in turn makes it less reliable. You can partially overcome these obstacles and make things more reliable, but it's an uphill climb. The closer you get to 100% reliability, the faster development, production and maintenance costs climb.

Is there such a thing as a perfect Active Steering system in an automobile with a 0% chance of failure? I don't know, but I doubt it.

Last edited by driverman; 02-08-2012 at 03:33 PM.
driverman is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-08-2012, 03:37 PM   #452
DoD74
Private First Class
 
DoD74's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 BMW 335i Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dallas

Posts: 136
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FwdFtl View Post
In other words, what you're really saying is TL;DR
Nope, pretty sure I said what I meant. In my personal experience, calling BMW NA resolved the issues I've had over the years. For me it was an option that worked, so this incident is not necessarily typical of their treatment of customers in general. Aguru shared a bad experience, I shared my experience which had a positive outcome (it's called balance). I am glad another party diagnosed the issue as an SZL and corrected that issue, so the car should at least no longer be a danger to the driver, hence the issue with the actual car appears to be resolved. However, it is not acceptable for a dealership to treat anyone the way aguru reports being treated, which is why I said " I am sorry you were treated that way". And my closing statement is true, a dealership should take every customer complaint seriously, especially safety concerns, and as a customer it's our right to escalate if we see fit. Everyone has a boss, so keep climbing the ladder until you reach a party who will listen to your grievance. Hopefully aguru keeps the faith and the people involved eventually do the right thing. If nothing else, hopefully aguru at least sees from these posts that more people are their corner than not...
DoD74 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      08-23-2012, 02:58 PM   #453
RichardJones
New Member
 
Drives: Red with four wheels
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In the garage

Posts: 6
iTrader: (0)

What was the final result on this? Can anyone point me to a post summarising the whole thing and the outcome?
RichardJones is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:15 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST