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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Switched to COBB after running JB4 for over two years



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      12-19-2014, 07:35 PM   #1
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Switched to COBB this week and thought i'd share my thoughts. For some background i've ran JB4 pretty much since getting the car over 2 years ago. Started with JB4 G4, moved to the G5, then the G5 ISO. My final setup was the G5 ISO with the BB backend flash and meth injection. Anyways the car was a blast to drive, really quick, and put down some good numbers. There were some issues that I had like never being able to get rid of wastegate rattle even with brand new turbos, and a few more minor stuff. I also was getting tired of a meth tank in my trunk and having to worry about managing all of that stuff.

Anyways the whole Wedge phenomenon got me thinking about switching to COBB and I finally did it. Sold the JB4 with meth kit and found a great deal on a V3 COBB. I decided to go with @Jake@MOTIV for the tune and so i'm far on the first revision of my 93 map and love it. Although Wedge looks to be doing some awesome stuff there were some things Jake and I spoke about which made me decide to go with them, but that is not important for the overall thread. Anyways on just the first revision of the 93 map I am in love. The throttle took some getting used to because partial throttle acceleration is slower than the JB4 but as a result the car is much smoother to drive. Even my first time starting the car with the COBB both myself and one of my friends noticed an instant difference. Hard to explain but the startup just sounded much smoother. No more wastegate rattle and the idle is no smooth as glass no vibrations or anything of that sort.

In terms of performance like I said first revision but i'm more than happy. On the butt dyno it does feel faster than my old DD 93 octane setup (BB race flash w/ Map 1). Something about the way the torque hits it just pins you in your seat all the way to 6200 ish which is when I shift. Once my 93 map is all set up and perfected i'm gonna move onto doing a E85 map and can't wait. Just being able to flash easily and set and forget is a huge advantage and like a weight lifted off my shoulders. With the old setup I was constantly monitoring the boost, meth flow, etc and was always thinking something was wrong.

Overall if you're thinking about doing it I would say just give it a try and i don't think you will go back. I've been debating doing it for over 6 months and finally did the swap and as of right now would not go back. The only thing I truly miss about the JB4 was the in dash boost gauges, however, I just picked up a P3 vent gauge so that should take care of that. I had the V3 mounted on the dash but didn't like the look at all.

Anyways if anyone has any questions or anything let me know and i'll answer as honestly as possible.
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      12-19-2014, 07:54 PM   #2
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Congrats on your COBB custom tuning experience. All that matters most is that you are happy and satisfied
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      12-19-2014, 07:58 PM   #3
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Welcome to the Cobb crew. Nice pickup on the gauge! Saw that in the Classifieds
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      12-19-2014, 08:19 PM   #4
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Glad u made the switch and are happy with the results thus far.

Just curious as to why u chose motiv > wedge or even dzenno/PTF for that matter.
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      12-19-2014, 10:02 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Give_Em_The_DD View Post
Glad u made the switch and are happy with the results thus far.

Just curious as to why u chose motiv > wedge or even dzenno/PTF for that matter.
Idk i'm sure this is gonna start big debates but it came down to a lot of things and mostly personal opinion. In terms of Motiv over PTF it seemed to me like most of the PTF tunes i've seen were done by Jake or at least the ones making the most power with customers posting about them. I had also spoken to Jake in the past and thought he would be good to work with. In terms of over Wedge I liked the Jake had been doing it longer and it was a bit more simple. Wedge informed me I would have to change some values depending on stuff like weather or E85 content and Jake said the map would auto adjust. Although I do like my car to be as powerful as possible I also like safe power and didn't want to push anything too aggressively.
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      12-19-2014, 10:42 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psmitty95 View Post
Idk i'm sure this is gonna start big debates but it came down to a lot of things and mostly personal opinion. In terms of Motiv over PTF it seemed to me like most of the PTF tunes i've seen were done by Jake or at least the ones making the most power with customers posting about them. I had also spoken to Jake in the past and thought he would be good to work with. In terms of over Wedge I liked the Jake had been doing it longer and it was a bit more simple. Wedge informed me I would have to change some values depending on stuff like weather or E85 content and Jake said the map would auto adjust. Although I do like my car to be as powerful as possible I also like safe power and didn't want to push anything too aggressively.
Glad you are enjoying it We will play with throttle mapping to get it exactly as you want it. That part of tuning is fun and we have endless ability to get it intuitive to your style.

As for PTF/MOTIV tuning. Dzenno and I are still good friends and keep current on things together. Tuning was 50/50. Unless there were special requests we alternated every other order. PTF/MOTIV were started by Dzenno and Jake together and equally. The two companies still operate with the same integrity and abilities just separately. Beyond that - we still partner on some projects together. Dzenno's 900 kit should be installed soon
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      12-19-2014, 10:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake@MOTIV View Post
Glad you are enjoying it We will play with throttle mapping to get it exactly as you want it. That part of tuning is fun and we have endless ability to get it intuitive to your style.

As for PTF/MOTIV tuning. Dzenno and I are still good friends and keep current on things together. Tuning was 50/50. Unless there were special requests we alternated every other order. PTF/MOTIV were started by Dzenno and Jake together and equally. The two companies still operate with the same integrity and abilities just separately. Beyond that - we still partner on some projects together. Dzenno's 900 kit should be installed soon
Oh awesome I had no idea! I'm away until the 27th so no rush on figuring that out since i'm not even home to load up the maps. We can get back to it then. Thanks for everything so far though really happy I made the switch
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      12-19-2014, 11:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psmitty95 View Post
Idk i'm sure this is gonna start big debates....
Actually it wont, not from Ken (Wedge) or myself. No one has to right to knock your decision in the end you chose flash tuning over a piggyback. I personally am happy you went the COBB only route as you now have plenty of other options if one path doesnt work out for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by psmitty95 View Post
... In terms of over Wedge I liked the Jake had been doing it longer and it was a bit more simple.
We respect this opinion as I have done the same. Jake has been doing this longer than we have and yes he has more experience, However it does not mean our method of approach to tuning the N54 is less lacking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmitty95 View Post
... Wedge informed me I would have to change some values depending on stuff like weather or E85 content and Jake said the map would auto adjust. Although I do like my car to be as powerful as possible I also like safe power and didn't want to push anything too aggressively.
Yes agreed we do tune aggressively by "default" unless the customer says to tone it down, then we do. So looks like your on the right track with the tuner you selected.

What is safe power is a matter of opinion, and "conditions involved". Ken and I are the only ones who have went overboard with tuning our personal cars to the extreme and thus is because we are taking advantage of the negative DA weather. This is not the case with customers cars.

There are customers who share our personal maps who are on our international chat network, and consent and acknowledgement is always required before sending out maps.

Since we tune cars runing "Load Target" and "Actual Load" close to each other for optimal performance, yes when weather changes it is advised to lower or raise the load target table "if needed". Thus you can have multiple maps for different weather conditions ie +DA and -DA.
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      12-20-2014, 03:47 AM   #9
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      12-20-2014, 06:53 AM   #10
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Can't say I'm not amused at the sudden semi mass switching to Cobb. It's almost as if something new was released. IMO not really a fair comparison without backend flash/JB4. I haven't seen any numbers that lead one to believe either set up can't get all there is to get out of stock turbos when in the right hands. Not sure the investment (Cobb + tuning fee) is worth the switch before investing in a $200 cable and learning to play around in tuner pro and the use selectable jb4 map a little bit. I have neither and don't plan on either so no bias here (I have "the cable" and 6 months of tweaking available OTS maps myself, e40 version 12 now and perfectly content).
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      12-20-2014, 07:55 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanlalee View Post
Can't say I'm not amused at the sudden semi mass switching to Cobb. It's almost as if something new was released. IMO not really a fair comparison without backend flash/JB4. I haven't seen any numbers that lead one to believe either set up can't get all there is to get out of stock turbos when in the right hands. Not sure the investment (Cobb + tuning fee) is worth the switch before investing in a $200 cable and learning to play around in tuner pro and the use selectable jb4 map a little bit. I have neither and don't plan on either so no bias here (I have "the cable" and 6 months of tweaking available OTS maps myself, e40 version 12 now and perfectly content).
Once you have started learning to use TunerPro you may as well just ditch the JB4 unless you're using it as a meth controller.

The COBB + Tune costs a lot more than just using BBFlash but for someone new to the scene it's not the most user friendly route and there's always the possibility of a failed write.
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      12-20-2014, 09:13 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarAbuser View Post
Once you have started learning to use TunerPro you may as well just ditch the JB4 unless you're using it as a meth controller.

The COBB + Tune costs a lot more than just using BBFlash but for someone new to the scene it's not the most user friendly route and there's always the possibility of a failed write.
If there was an easier way to log and the JB4 didnt have the fancy can integration, I probably would have pulled it out of my car a while ago. Its a shame that the BT cable isnt stable enough for regular logging.
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      12-20-2014, 09:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanlalee View Post
Can't say I'm not amused at the sudden semi mass switching to Cobb. It's almost as if something new was released. IMO not really a fair comparison without backend flash/JB4. I haven't seen any numbers that lead one to believe either set up can't get all there is to get out of stock turbos when in the right hands. Not sure the investment (Cobb + tuning fee) is worth the switch before investing in a $200 cable and learning to play around in tuner pro and the use selectable jb4 map a little bit. I have neither and don't plan on either so no bias here (I have "the cable" and 6 months of tweaking available OTS maps myself, e40 version 12 now and perfectly content).
Not sure if the bolded line was about me or most of the guys switching but if me I was running JB4 with a backend flash. I'm not saying the COBB makes more power (even though it does feel that way) but it is all around better imo. Simpler, smoother, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuraQ View Post
Actually it wont, not from Ken (Wedge) or myself. No one has to right to knock your decision in the end you chose flash tuning over a piggyback. I personally am happy you went the COBB only route as you now have plenty of other options if one path doesnt work out for you.




We respect this opinion as I have done the same. Jake has been doing this longer than we have and yes he has more experience, However it does not mean our method of approach to tuning the N54 is less lacking.



Yes agreed we do tune aggressively by "default" unless the customer says to tone it down, then we do. So looks like your on the right track with the tuner you selected.

What is safe power is a matter of opinion, and "conditions involved". Ken and I are the only ones who have went overboard with tuning our personal cars to the extreme and thus is because we are taking advantage of the negative DA weather. This is not the case with customers cars.

There are customers who share our personal maps who are on our international chat network, and consent and acknowledgement is always required before sending out maps.

Since we tune cars runing "Load Target" and "Actual Load" close to each other for optimal performance, yes when weather changes it is advised to lower or raise the load target table "if needed". Thus you can have multiple maps for different weather conditions ie +DA and -DA.
Thanks for the response. I do think you guys do a great job and think it does just wind up coming down to the end user. Hey who knows sometime in the future I might contact you guys for a tune or kill map of some sort
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      12-20-2014, 10:30 AM   #14
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Without logs its difficult to compare the two. Remember when the OFT first hit the scene? There were several posts about "ZOMG it so much faster than X" while it was really a placebo effect. I would love to see some back to back logs of jb4/backend flash vs wedge/bq tune.
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      12-20-2014, 10:57 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boost junkie View Post
Without logs its difficult to compare the two. Remember when the OFT first hit the scene? There were several posts about "ZOMG it so much faster than X" while it was really a placebo effect. I would love to see some back to back logs of jb4/backend flash vs wedge/bq tune.
Again i'm not saying it is faster although it does feel faster to me. The part that impresses me the most is how much smoother it is during driving, WOT, and even stuff as simple as starting the car.

But here are some logs anyways:

Only JB4 93 run I have. Map 1 w/ backend flash if I remember correctly:
http://www.datazap.me/u/psmith95/jb4-93?log=0&data=1-4

Motiv rev 1 93 map:
http://www.datazap.me/u/psmith95/mot...=1&data=3-4-16
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      12-20-2014, 01:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psmitty95 View Post
Again i'm not saying it is faster although it does feel faster to me. The part that impresses me the most is how much smoother it is during driving, WOT, and even stuff as simple as starting the car.

But here are some logs anyways:

Only JB4 93 run I have. Map 1 w/ backend flash if I remember correctly:
http://www.datazap.me/u/psmith95/jb4-93?log=0&data=1-4

Motiv rev 1 93 map:
http://www.datazap.me/u/psmith95/mot...=1&data=3-4-16
Looks like JB4 Map 1 w/ the OEM flash map or maybe an out of date pump gas back end flash map. The pump back end flash map has run 15-16psi DME_BT targets for the last year or so.

Sometimes a change of pace is fun and I can see the allure of taking off meth as it can be finicky. The most valuable part of these custom maps is having a professional go through your tuning and settings and solving problems. It just so happens not many of the custom flash guys know how to properly implement the JB4 along with their custom flash. But it can be easily done and brings several benefits to the table as you might come to realize as the months pass with your new setup.

Mike
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      12-20-2014, 01:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by psmitty95 View Post
Again i'm not saying it is faster although it does feel faster to me. The part that impresses me the most is how much smoother it is during driving, WOT, and even stuff as simple as starting the car.

But here are some logs anyways:

Only JB4 93 run I have. Map 1 w/ backend flash if I remember correctly:
http://www.datazap.me/u/psmith95/jb4-93?log=0&data=1-4

Motiv rev 1 93 map:
http://www.datazap.me/u/psmith95/mot...=1&data=3-4-16
Looks like JB4 Map 1 w/ the OEM flash map or maybe an out of date pump gas back end flash map. The pump back end flash map has run 15-16psi DME_BT targets for the last year or so.

Sometimes a change of pace is fun and I can see the allure of taking off meth as it can be finicky. The most valuable part of these custom maps is having a professional go through your tuning and settings and solving problems. It just so happens not many of the custom flash guys know how to properly implement the JB4 along with their custom flash. But it can be easily done and brings several benefits to the table as you might come to realize as the months pass with your new setup.

Mike
Hmm maybe honestly can't remember almost all of my logs were meth or e85 so just picked the first good pump one i saw in my files. I will say i do miss my in dash boost gauges
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      12-20-2014, 01:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psmitty95 View Post
Hmm maybe honestly can't remember almost all of my logs were meth or e85 so just picked the first good pump one i saw in my files. I will say i do miss my in dash boost gauges
You can technically run the JB4 with the white patch and small black patch disconnected, in map 4, and keep the in dash gauges and logging features active. Then use map 0 for a complete pass through. The white patch is the one that runs the boost solenoids and the small black patch is the fuel control. Don't use any maps other than 0 or 4 like this though.

The JB4 is a flexible system and its greatest strength is the engineering time that continues to pour in to it. Once you have the flash tune all finalized be sure to share a few logs and I'll forward those over to BMS to see technically where those stack up against their current back end flash maps. Ultimately they're always looking for ways to improve their performance and customer satisfaction.

Mike
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      12-20-2014, 02:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Looks like JB4 Map 1 w/ the OEM flash map or maybe an out of date pump gas back end flash map. The pump back end flash map has run 15-16psi DME_BT targets for the last year or so.

Sometimes a change of pace is fun and I can see the allure of taking off meth as it can be finicky. The most valuable part of these custom maps is having a professional go through your tuning and settings and solving problems. It just so happens not many of the custom flash guys know how to properly implement the JB4 along with their custom flash. But it can be easily done and brings several benefits to the table as you might come to realize as the months pass with your new setup.

Mike
The OP has a 2009 so I am assuming he is IJE0S. The problem with the OTS BMS IJE0S backends is that the load targets are too high and that is what leads to shifting issues with the transmission, especially if the OP is running a low boost map like 1 or 2. Consequently the I8A0S and ILA0S backends use a more conservative load target which is likely to give better results at least from OTS standpoint. Not sure why BMS still uses these high load targets for IJE0S. They were phased out for ILA0S long ago.
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      12-20-2014, 02:29 PM   #20
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@psmitty95

Just focus on your etuning with Jake, and enjoy the benefits the COBB AP offers for your car.

Thanks for the write up on your switch experience. Dont let any of the mombo jumbo talk in this thread get to you, its all part of the sport.
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      12-20-2014, 03:40 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by musc View Post
The OP has a 2009 so I am assuming he is IJE0S. The problem with the OTS BMS IJE0S backends is that the load targets are too high and that is what leads to shifting issues with the transmission, especially if the OP is running a low boost map like 1 or 2. Consequently the I8A0S and ILA0S backends use a more conservative load target which is likely to give better results at least from OTS standpoint. Not sure why BMS still uses these high load targets for IJE0S. They were phased out for ILA0S long ago.
I don't want to derail OPs thread but I thought the issue with the previous back end flash maps was load was too far below actual boost causing potential issues. In any event BMS is happy to adjust their back end flash maps and they are posted via open source so anyone can open, view, and modify them. OPs log looks like 16psi peak which is the same as the current IJE0S back end flash map as far as I know. I'll go smack BMS in the back of the head to improve those maps though which will benefit everyone. I think map 5 needs to be improved for
pump gas too.

Mike
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      12-20-2014, 06:23 PM   #22
musc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I don't want to derail OPs thread but I thought the issue with the previous back end flash maps was load was too far below actual boost causing potential issues. In any event BMS is happy to adjust their back end flash maps and they are posted via open source so anyone can open, view, and modify them. OPs log looks like 16psi peak which is the same as the current IJE0S back end flash map as far as I know. I'll go smack BMS in the back of the head to improve those maps though which will benefit everyone. I think map 5 needs to be improved for
pump gas too.

Mike
Yeah I don't want to derail it either. My apologies to the OP, but one last comment. The issue will be worse with flash load targets too high. On Terry's forum there was already someone complaining about overboosting to 18-19psi on Map1 with the new IJE0S backend so 4/2 had to be used to bandaid it. You cant just throw a high load target at it. I figured this out awhile back and revised my own load targets to as closely match what I thought the actual load was. This should be easier if the JB4 is logging load. If anything, slightly lower flash load targets are better than being too high. Being way too low is a problem as well. I am sure Terry will dial it in better. I just think there needs to be more disclosure with the backend maps that one size will not fit all. A lot of us understand that but some of the newer guys expect it to be perfect out the box. For map5, there needs to be a change in the way avg_ign is calculated. One false knocking Cylinder 5 can really throw a wrench in the way Map5 was designed to work. Good discussion Mike
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