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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Green or Yellow Springs?



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      07-24-2015, 08:28 AM   #1
jwebb335xi
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Hey guys,

I've been running green springs in my Forge diverter valves since January. Since that time, however, I've moved from a nearly stock car to one with downpipes, a stage 1+ pro tune and an FMIC. All that said, the car is slow to build boost in 3rd gear. All Vacuum lines are replaced as are the boost solenoids.

Does it make sense to change to yellow springs; would that difference possibly eliminate the slower build....?

Thanks much.
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      07-24-2015, 09:15 AM   #2
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I have the yellow springs in im FBO
The key to keeping a good seal and holding boost is cleaning every 2-3 months.
I don't know if it's overkill but I've never had any problems.
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      07-24-2015, 10:04 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X.X.I.V
I have the yellow springs in im FBO
The key to keeping a good seal and holding boost is cleaning every 2-3 months.
I don't know if it's overkill but I've never had any problems.
Thanks. I just picked up some Mobil 1 synthetic high temp grease (red) and plan to pull the DVs, clean, grease and insert yellow springs.
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      07-24-2015, 12:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X.X.I.V
I have the yellow springs in im FBO
The key to keeping a good seal and holding boost is cleaning every 2-3 months.
I don't know if it's overkill but I've never had any problems.
Sigh, even with keeping up on maintenance like this, my forge DVs still can't hold boost and crack under a good amount of throttle. Maybe I need some new valves. I rebuilt them over 7 times in the last year with issues cropping back up 3 or 4 days after cleaning.
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      07-24-2015, 01:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
Sigh, even with keeping up on maintenance like this, my forge DVs still can't hold boost and crack under a good amount of throttle. Maybe I need some new valves. I rebuilt them over 7 times in the last year with issues cropping back up 3 or 4 days after cleaning.
I know you saw my other thread because you posted in it but I'll reiterate here for others who maybe didn't see it.

Had symptoms of a what I thought was a boost leak that I could not track down. I ignored the DV's because they were "new" and I thought they couldn't be at fault. Turns out they were but in a subtle way.

If you take out the pistons and look into the bottom of the cup/housing where the piston would seat when fully open, there is a channel. Inside that channel is a hole for the vac port. It was over lubed from the factory and that excess lube was getting sucked into the port, partially clogging it. This would cause it to stick closed and stick open. The only way I noticed it was this time even after cleaning, re-lubing everything, and reassembling when I pressed the piston down with my finger it still stuck off full closed and full open. Had to puzzle this out and take it all apart again. I have the black valves and if you don't look down into the cup with a light source shining just at the right angle you can't see that little channel is packed full of grease. The piston seats down in it and squishes the grease around, clogs the port again. So I got in there with a q-tip, got the excess grease out, broke off one end of the q-tip and cleaned out the vac port itself. Re-assembled, did the finger test and they work smooth as anything, no sticking at either end.

Put them back on the car and very obvious improvement in response (no lag anymore off low rpm/low load) and they even sound different, turbo spool sounds different too. DV's are supposed to be open at idle/light throttle. If they are sticking or just slow that will manifest as lag. Similarly if they then stick closed you'll get boost spikes when under boost and back off throttle quickly. DV's sit outside the control loop that looks after the wastegates, so to the control system sticky DV's will look like an intermittent WG problem requiring either more WGDC or less depending on where it is sticking, open or closed, happens to be going on. So you'll get screwy WGDC numbers that do not look like just a straight boost leak.

Oh, as to OP's q, yellow springs no shims is what Forge recommends.
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      07-24-2015, 01:57 PM   #6
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The other thing to double check because it is so easy to mess up, is that the valves are installed the right way/orientation. The end you put your finger in to press the piston down should be connected to the low pressure hose that feeds back into the intake upstream of the turbo inlet. The other end goes to the high pressure side hose that connects to the charge pipe.

If you reverse these the valve will not function as a recirculating valve, and always open too soon once boost pressure overcomes spring force, like a straight blowoff valve. The valves are not identical, there is a left and a right. When properly installed the round faces of the valves should point to each other, and the vac port inlet point to the intake manifold.
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      07-24-2015, 02:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
The other thing to double check because it is so easy to mess up, is that the valves are installed the right way/orientation. The end you put your finger in to press the piston down should be connected to the low pressure hose that feeds back into the intake upstream of the turbo inlet. The other end goes to the high pressure side hose that connects to the charge pipe.

If you reverse these the valve will not function as a recirculating valve, and always open too soon once boost pressure overcomes spring force, like a straight blowoff valve. The valves are not identical, there is a left and a right. When properly installed the round faces of the valves should point to each other, and the vac port inlet point to the intake manifold.
I just bought new Forge DV's- any advice on how to open without damaging the units. Apparently, the people at Forge over tightened them and I can not get them open to inspect or change out the springs.
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      07-24-2015, 02:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010 M Sport View Post
I just bought new Forge DV's- any advice on how to open without damaging the units. Apparently, the people at Forge over tightened them and I can not get them open to inspect or change out the springs.
Yeah mine get stuck like that too after a while on the car even when I try not to over tighten. I wrap some gaffers tape (or duct tape) around the bottom outlet. Press the piston in with your finger, then cover the vac port with another finger. This holds the valve open and the piston o-ring away from the sealing surface, you can damage the o-ring if you just unscrew with valve closed. Then grab some pliers or a channel lock version, lightly grab onto the taped area with it, and unscrew slowly. Once you break it loose, you can finish unscrewing with your hands. Either keep your finger on the vac port to keep the piston fully pressed in, or let it go and manually press the piston off the seat with another finger through the bottom port. Do same thing on assembly, you do not want to be rotating the housing against a closed valve.

By the way it is very easy to see when the valve sticks, esp from closed. You press the piston in with a finger and it sticks a bit before opening then pops open. Same thing at the top when fully open, but a little less obvious. You want it smooth and no sticking at both ends, and no friction along full range. If the vac port is clogged, it'll feel like the piston is getting cocked in the bore, but it isn't, just the air flow through the vac port is restricted.

Last edited by ajsalida; 07-24-2015 at 02:30 PM.
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      07-24-2015, 03:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
The other thing to double check because it is so easy to mess up, is that the valves are installed the right way/orientation. The end you put your finger in to press the piston down should be connected to the low pressure hose that feeds back into the intake upstream of the turbo inlet. The other end goes to the high pressure side hose that connects to the charge pipe.

If you reverse these the valve will not function as a recirculating valve, and always open too soon once boost pressure overcomes spring force, like a straight blowoff valve. The valves are not identical, there is a left and a right. When properly installed the round faces of the valves should point to each other, and the vac port inlet point to the intake manifold.

As cleaned, lubed and re-installed...
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      07-25-2015, 01:00 PM   #10
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Did a boost leak test and found several weak points in my system. Tightened everything and now the diverters are function much much better. Still though with all vacuum and boost leaks gone, the diverters will get stuck just like they did before.

A question: when I ordered my latest rebuild kit, they sent me a piston that had an o-ring built into it towards the top. My other Pistons do not have this O-ring. Is this piston with the O-ring the newest revision of the piston? Or is it an older style? If it's newer I will contact forge and have them send me another. It seems though that that O-ring is in the perfect position to stop the piston from sticking. Thanks for your help in advance!
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      07-26-2015, 04:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
Did a boost leak test and found several weak points in my system. Tightened everything and now the diverters are function much much better. Still though with all vacuum and boost leaks gone, the diverters will get stuck just like they did before.

A question: when I ordered my latest rebuild kit, they sent me a piston that had an o-ring built into it towards the top. My other Pistons do not have this O-ring. Is this piston with the O-ring the newest revision of the piston? Or is it an older style? If it's newer I will contact forge and have them send me another. It seems though that that O-ring is in the perfect position to stop the piston from sticking. Thanks for your help in advance!
Yes that is the new style piston with o-ring, and mine came with them like that. For $30 well worth upgrading the other.
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      07-26-2015, 04:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
Did a boost leak test and found several weak points in my system. Tightened everything and now the diverters are function much much better. Still though with all vacuum and boost leaks gone, the diverters will get stuck just like they did before.

A question: when I ordered my latest rebuild kit, they sent me a piston that had an o-ring built into it towards the top. My other Pistons do not have this O-ring. Is this piston with the O-ring the newest revision of the piston? Or is it an older style? If it's newer I will contact forge and have them send me another. It seems though that that O-ring is in the perfect position to stop the piston from sticking. Thanks for your help in advance!
Yes that is the new style piston with o-ring, and mine came with them like that. For $30 well worth upgrading the other.
Thanks for the info, I suspected it was the newer style but just wanted to confirm before purchasing. Right where that o-ring is on the piston is exactly where my current pistons stick.
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      07-26-2015, 04:37 PM   #13
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Thanks for the info, I suspected it was the newer style but just wanted to confirm before purchasing. Right where that o-ring is on the piston is exactly where my current pistons stick.
Happy to help. But I had those new pistons from day 1 and mine stuck right there too, or seemed to. It was the vac port being blocked that made it seem like the piston seal was sticking. It still stuck same spot (pressing piston in with a finger) after I re-lubed and re-assembled everything, so I took them apart again and found the excess Mobil 1 lube at the other end of the housing was clogging the port.
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