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      01-12-2012, 02:50 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by onkloud9 View Post
Audi has won three years in a row with their 3.0TFSI (supercharged).

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Great business sense by BMW, I can't wait to see these models, especially the diesel x-drive 5 series. I don't see the reason to get up in arms about the names or dilution, they will still be wonderful cars to drive and enjoy.
I stand corrected
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      01-12-2012, 03:02 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I think its pretty certain that BMW will continue to offer "BMW Performance" parts as accessories. The car you included pictures of is merely a show car to display some of those parts.

Will the new "M Performance" line of vehicles use some of those exact same parts straight from the factory? Maybe. In fact, I'd say probably. Will the M Performance vehicles also use some of their own bespoken parts? I'd say that's a good bet as well, but certainly not nearly as many as a "proper" M vehicle like an M3 or M5 does.
I fear that too many variants would cause confusion in the customer's mind :

- basic stock models (basic engine, basic looks)
- basic stock models with only a few M Performance optional accessories available (spoiler, etc.)
- M Sport/M Package models (basic engine, upgraded looks and a few "reasonably sporty" M accessories)
- M Performance package (engine and chassis tweaks, upgraded+ looks, even more sporty M accessories)
- M Performance models on their own
- genuine M models on their own.

First thing to rationalize and make the range more consistent, the M Performance accessories should only be available on the M Sport. And as you say, only a few of these M Performance accessories should be available, not the whold package that would make a 116i look like a real ///M135i... I hope that the show-car on the above pictures was just a show-off of what would actually look the true ///M135i and that most of these mods won't be available on a regular F20.
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      01-12-2012, 03:04 PM   #135
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I'm in the camp that would have favoured emphasis on iS or M-Sport. M is revered; if that letter is on the badge then the car should be a true M-car. If they want a performance line, they should use the iS branding, and market it as having been finessed by the M division. That's enough to satisfy people in the know, while offering something with a little more edge to the buying public.

BMW did the right thing when they chose to leave the M1 badge off of the 1-series M Coupe. They need to apply the same sense to the M brand as a whole.

There's nothing to stop them from pushing M into hardcore territory - just offer a new trim to fill the void.

My $0.02.
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      01-12-2012, 03:13 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
As far as I know the Audi RS range isn't watered down by the S range although the badges are similar. The latter is just given more credit (and of course more sales potential).

Of course an S is just an ersatz of a radical RS, and an ///M335i will be just an ///M3 ersatz, but I don't doubt that the performance and handling (and esthetic) tweaks will be enough to clearly differentiate this new intermediary category, as well from the pure ///M range as from the basic stock models.
I agree, but thats where the "iS" badge comes in. It's different for Audi because it is S vs. RS. Since ///M is just M, it makes more sense to make the "S" equivalent BMW cars the "iS" badge. Keep ///M for the true M cars, just as Audi has RS for their highest performance cars.

Mercedes is different. Their version of Audi's "S" and BMW's "iS/M-sport" is just a package that comes with the base model. They don't have a real in-between model line. Their AMG package is more similar to S-line or M Package that come as an option with the base cars.
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      01-12-2012, 03:13 PM   #137
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I previously had the same opinion, but the problem is that almost no one knows the is badge because it is less charismatic and because as far as I know only 2 is models have been released... vs plenty of Audi S for instance. BMW could have decided to extend and develop the is/id range but building a new badge out of nothing costs a lot of time and money and the success is uncertain. And again, having M in the name makes it so much more attractive than is.

While an ///M...i/d badge will immediately appeal to most customers because of the M aura, just like an Audi S gets credit from the aura of the RS badge... In the end, this new M Performance range is less of a watering down of the legendary M badge than the M Sport, and I don't think anyone complains about the M Sport tarnishing the M iconic image. Moreover, this new M Performance line will not only get esthetic upgrades and a stiffer chassis (like a simple M Sport) but sensible engine upgrades, even sportier chassis and high performance brakes... on top of the specific esthetic accessories. In my mind these ///M...i/d won't at all offend the M image because they will have some serious material to back up their name, and if there was anything shameful it would be the M Sport, not the M Performance... These will be hot little Ms... and probably sell like hot cakes

And yes, Audi's badges S and RS are distinct, but these sporty badges are closely related to each other and the logos keep the same design, there is some strong market consistency here :





On the paper and on the road, BMW could fight the Audi S range with an is range no problem, but upstream in the market fight, a 335is for instance is most certainly perceived as being just an upgraded 335i, while if you look at Audi, the S-Line sounds like it's being derived from the S which itself seems derived from the RS, although these are only perceptions. And by the way, given that the M Sport already bears the legendary M logo, BMW just had to market this whole new intermediary line with the M logo as well, for consistency reasons

The is range was clearly a marketing error, probably because at the time BMW didn't imagine issuing a whole new range in order to compete against the Audi S range. Well now it's a necessity.

Last edited by advantage20; 01-12-2012 at 03:58 PM.
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      01-12-2012, 03:17 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshab356 View Post
Mercedes is different. Their version of Audi's "S" and BMW's "iS/M-sport" is just a package that comes with the base model. They don't have a real in-between model line. Their AMG package is more similar to S-line or M Package that come as an option with the base cars.
You're right, like BMW's current lineup, Mercedes does not offer anything in between the AMG Appearance Package and a true AMG vehicle. But in the future, just as BMW is expanding the range with M Performance line to fill the gap between MSport and M-proper, so may Mercedes do the same with the AMG lineup. I would not count it out as a possibility, anyway.
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      01-12-2012, 04:39 PM   #139
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Am sure someone will have the same reaction as this one:

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      01-12-2012, 04:54 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss233 View Post
Am sure someone will have the same reaction as this one:
That is... awesome.

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      01-12-2012, 05:04 PM   #141
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Am sure someone will have the same reaction as this one:
These videos crack me up. I know this is way off topic but the latest one about the new GT500 is entertaining as well.


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      01-12-2012, 05:11 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
///M Variant = Diet M = Nonsense

It's either ///M or it's not. Anything in between is simply a dilution of the badge for marketing purposes. Highly corrosive.
.
agree

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Originally Posted by Alumac View Post
I gladly accept the "dilution" of the M brand if it means the traditional M cars become more performance oriented.
thats the problem right there. the m cars can't come to america with roll bars and fixed back seats - they won't pass DOT testing.

so the m car will remain what they have become, more and more watered down.
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      01-12-2012, 05:22 PM   #143
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No official announcement yet on the X3M? Maybe they're just waiting to find the right market Nitschke.
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      01-12-2012, 05:41 PM   #144
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Am sure someone will have the same reaction as this one:

hahaha. that video never gets old
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      01-12-2012, 05:42 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
...
M135i takes the inspiration from the previous 135i M-Sport and adds the unique and specific aerodynamic packet , although this time it is introduced as a hatch. M135i is the substitute until the next generation full blooded M appears in the next three years.
....
SCOTTS comment for me reads as: The M2 coming in 2015! That's very disappointing to me! End of production of 1M Coupe is around the corner. This means - nearly 3 years to wait for the successor???
Then the M2 is dead for me ... and buying a half ///M like the M235i in the meantime? Hm - sorry - no. Look elswhere then....
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      01-12-2012, 05:45 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
///M Variant = Diet M = Nonsense

It's either ///M or it's not. Anything in between is simply a dilution of the badge for marketing purposes. Highly corrosive.
.
Ideally and in a purist sense yes, M cars should remain rare and exclusive. But in today's global competition and constant growth of sport and luxury products demand, BMW can't keep its myth pure and virgin just to satisfy a handful of enthusiasts, there is simply too much to lose. Hence M SUVs, hence turbocharged Ms, hence M Sport packages... M cars are indeed at the pinnacle of performance and engineering, but they aren't religious relics nor archeological artefacts. BMW, including M, are worth what they can do on the road, against their competitors. The brand must evolve according to market demand and competition.
In the end we all know that a genuine M will remain radically different from its downmarket siblings, so rather than a watering down of the iconic M badge, this M Performance range should strengthen the BMW brand by shedding down some of the M light and value over the regular models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alumac View Post
As for the people worried that others will not be able to tell the difference between a M335 and a M3; who cares?
I guess that most buyers who will pay more for a more upmarket version (e.g.: ///M3 vs ///M335i, or ///M335i vs 335i) need to feel not only a different driving experience but also an additional share of exclusivity, not necessarily in other people's eyes and admiration and to their ego's gratification but merely because they need to perceive their money's value and not feel ripped off, or else they will not buy the more upmarket version (these specific examples are theoretical of course since, at the extreme, a fanboy who knows he wants a raw M3 won't buy an M335i even if they look similar)...


Exclusivity doesn't mean everything against nothing, M's potential allows for several levels of exclusivity for covering several market layers. In the end, keeping the M brand exclusive and confidential is foolish because it has an extremely high selling potential, and so far BMW have been selling cars, not making artwork (yet, successfully selling cars allows them to massively invest in research and development, to remain the best, and from time to time to issue some iconic model which could be qualified as art). But keeping a few models exclusive and rare for the brand's image (like the 1///M), yes, why not. Anyway, even with the growing demand for powerful M cars in certain countries, BMW's global core sales will remain medium range 1 and 3 series, so no panic, we won't see the M badge trivialized at every street corner

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      01-12-2012, 06:04 PM   #147
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Actually only ONE thing I can see might be good from this. If this new "M" category is created it might mean that true "M" models become even more hardcore.
Thats what i'm hoping for too...
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      01-12-2012, 06:45 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by aajami View Post
BMW has been telegraphing this move since the introduction of the X5M and X6M. And now it's official: The M badge means nothing anymore.

Pardon my ignorance, but...



...wasn't that what every BMW was supposed to represent?! Isn't that the reason people buy BMWs to begin with?

This is exactly on point and I posted much of the same sentiments on the M5board. I am one of the forums wishing for more 'focused' M models. I am afraid mostly of this quote by Dr. Nitschke:

"We are targeting our efforts at customers looking for more emotionality and more performance, but who don't want to forgo the everyday usability of their cars," said Dr. Friedrich Nitschke, President of BMW M GmbH.

So the current lineup of M models is not useable daily? This shows me that BMW M is going in the opposite direction than I wish they would of coming out with a bonkers M3/M5 GTS/black series type of option. They are saying that the new turbo M5 and upcoming M3 are enough and in fact that they need to offer a watered down version.

I am not a badge person but I also do not look forward to explaining to non-enthusiasts that their M335i or M550d is not quite the same as a "regular" M car.

I think I am moving on to other car options at this point. It has been fun!
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      01-12-2012, 06:46 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Good catch. Perhaps you are correct. Or maybe even M340i.
I actually just realized that that isn't black tape over the name but the black strips of the M Performance package
However I'm sure that this F30 "Performance Studie" is a show-car similar to the 120d F20 "Performance Studie" from the previous page in that their intent is to show what the real ///M135i and ///M335 will be like visually without being the real deal since it is still too early to divulge their names.
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      01-12-2012, 06:52 PM   #150
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As an aside this all reminds me of the great quote by Yogi Berra who said "Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded."

Soon it will be nobody drives M cars anymore; there's too many on the road.
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      01-12-2012, 06:56 PM   #151
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^^ Exactly.

Part of the reason M is so coveted is because of its exclusivity. Top engineering, top performance, relative rarity.

If M becomes too commonplace, it will lose its lustre, the same lustre that BMW is banking on to sell its "M Sport" kits and now "M Performance" versions of vehicles.

It's the way the world works. If every kid can receive an A, an A student is nothing special.
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      01-12-2012, 07:24 PM   #152
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^^ Exactly.

Part of the reason M is so coveted is because of its exclusivity. Top engineering, top performance, relative rarity.

If M becomes too commonplace, it will lose its lustre, the same lustre that BMW is banking on to sell its "M Sport" kits and now "M Performance" versions of vehicles.

It's the way the world works. If every kid can receive an A, an A student is nothing special.
What if you are the sole kid with a B?

But to be honest; BMW is taking this a bit too far... I would understand a BMW M super car but when every car is an M car it won't be cool anymore.
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      01-12-2012, 07:28 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
BMW has been telegraphing this move since the introduction of the X5M and X6M. And now it's official: The M badge means nothing anymore.

Pardon my ignorance, but...



...wasn't that what every BMW was supposed to represent?! Isn't that the reason people buy BMWs to begin with?
It's business, BMW goal is to sell more and more cars, hence they will offer more and more models.
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      01-12-2012, 07:44 PM   #154
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I don't like this. There are only certain conditions I believe this will be a positive change.

1) For these new "M" vehicles to have the M in front of the numbers in normal font and not an ///M badge
2) For the actual ///M cars to become even more amazing and less luxurious and more performance oriented (less weight, more handling, more grip, more serious, I think we're pretty good on the power figures) Basically an M3 GTS should be a normal M3 (without the ridiculous price which I still don't understand).
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