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      01-12-2012, 07:52 PM   #155
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I thought the whole reason for existence of BMW M is to have performance with practicality. at least they shove that into our ears every time a model comes out...and now theyre talking this bullshit? wtf is going on
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      01-12-2012, 07:53 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieDriving View Post
^^ Exactly.

Part of the reason M is so coveted is because of its exclusivity. Top engineering, top performance, relative rarity.

If M becomes too commonplace, it will lose its lustre, the same lustre that BMW is banking on to sell its "M Sport" kits and now "M Performance" versions of vehicles.

It's the way the world works. If every kid can receive an A, an A student is nothing special.
I agree that buying these fabulous cars should imply some exclusivity, if I had an M3 I wouldn't like to see all my neighbors driving the same car.
But obviously, mechanically there is no match between a real M and any other version of the same model (engine, gearbox, chassis settings...). Stylistically as well, a real M will also always hold a few exclusive attributes (specific air intakes, side gills, quad pipes...). So no matter how close to the real deal BMW will make these other versions (M Sport, M Performance), they will always preserve enough mechanical and esthetical specificities to not dilute the intrinsic qualities and the image of the real M cars.

Knowing that well, I guess an M driver shouldn't be pissed that a more downmarket version of the same model would have an M logo on its trunk lid, unless he values his own car mainly for its logo. Motorsport is not just an M logo, it's fantastic cars to drive (I never owned one, but it seems so...) and if those drivers really value their cars, they won't quit BMW merely because BMW are selling a piece of the icing on this M cake to more modest customers. And again, even with an ///M335i logo on the trunk, the car will look signfificantly different and clearly not as iconic as the same car wearing the ///M3 logo, a rear spoiler and quad exhausts.

If I drove a genuine M, I would probably be happy to see M Sport and M Performance models here and there on the streets. Not because I would be thinking that others crave for but cannot afford what I can, but because I would be flattered to see that many people appreciate and respect what genuine M cars stand for

Last edited by advantage20; 01-12-2012 at 08:08 PM.
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      01-12-2012, 08:45 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
I agree that buying these fabulous cars should imply some exclusivity, if I had an M3 I wouldn't like to see all my neighbors driving the same car.
But obviously, mechanically there is no match between a real M and any other version of the same model (engine, gearbox, chassis settings...). Stylistically as well, a real M will also always hold a few exclusive attributes (specific air intakes, side gills, quad pipes...). So no matter how close to the real deal BMW will make these other versions (M Sport, M Performance), they will always preserve enough mechanical and esthetical specificities to not dilute the intrinsic qualities and the image of the real M cars.

Knowing that well, I guess an M driver shouldn't be pissed that a more downmarket version of the same model would have an M logo on its trunk lid, unless he values his own car mainly for its logo. Motorsport is not just an M logo, it's fantastic cars to drive (I never owned one, but it seems so...) and if those drivers really value their cars, they won't quit BMW merely because BMW are selling a piece of the icing on this M cake to more modest customers. And again, even with an ///M335i logo on the trunk, the car will look signfificantly different and clearly not as iconic as the same car wearing the ///M3 logo, a rear spoiler and quad exhausts.

If I drove a genuine M, I would probably be happy to see M Sport and M Performance models here and there on the streets. Not because I would be thinking that others crave for but cannot afford what I can, but because I would be flattered to see that many people appreciate and respect what genuine M cars stand for
I don't disagree with you.

A few months ago, a Porsche salesman was trying to convince me to buy a Porsche because "at least everyone will know you have a Porsche. With an M3, everyone will think you are driving a 328i coupe." Personally, I prefer being under the radar because I don't want to park something that looks too expensive at work. I already get noticed because I drive a "BMW". And my 335i will probably look more "expensive" to the average Joe than my incoming M3, 'cause it's got the beige interior, wood trim, chrome stuff, etc.

What I was trying to say was that you can milk the M Brand to a certain point. It makes good business sense, it can please those who don't need or want an M car but want more "sportiness" and, as you kind of said, imitation is the best form of flattery, right?

But when you take it past a certain tipping point, you make it less desirable to the masses precisely because it is more available to the masses.

Now, on the other hand, *if* this leaves them room to:

(A) make their regular series cars more sedate (for the would-be Lexus, MB customers)
(B) make their M-Performance line what BMW should really be about - balance of sportiness, practicality and luxury (e.g. what the new regular 5 series has strayed away from), and finally
(C) keep their (true) M line as it has been

Then this might be a better strategy than I had hoped...
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      01-12-2012, 09:06 PM   #158
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No complaints here, this will only increase the resale of my e92 M3 down the line- coveted as the last of the purebreds
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      01-12-2012, 09:10 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post

Knowing that well, I guess an M driver shouldn't be pissed that a more downmarket version of the same model would have an M logo on its trunk lid, unless he values his own car mainly for its logo.
You are very correct up to a point. I have owned a few Ms now and one reason is because they are under the radar. Most non-enthusiast don't have a clue what a M3 or M5 is even if they see the badge. They may have an idea that it is more sporting but I doubt they are aware of the price delta between the M and non M cars. This new category mainly will serve to advertise the M brand to non-enthusiast. Great for BMW AG but not so great for long-time or current M owners.

If this truly wasn't milking the M brand, BMW could have built up the "is" or "tii" badges.
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      01-12-2012, 09:15 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onnex View Post
No complaints here, this will only increase the resale of my e92 M3 down the line- coveted as the last of the purebreds
Nope. Everyone says that most M buyers are non-enthusiasts. Well guess what they will be buying in the future.....M335's and M550d's. Imagine a BMW lot with a used E92 M3 and a brand new M335 for perhaps the same price. And BMW is going to load these new category M's up with all types of luxury and creature comforts to make it impossible for the non-enthusiast to even consider your E92 or my E60 in the near future.
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      01-12-2012, 09:25 PM   #161
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      01-12-2012, 09:29 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchnellM3 View Post
+1

Now everyone is going to stick a M badge on their car, they're killing the M name. If its not a true M car it should carry the is badging IMO
I agree with you. Everybody will drive around with an M badge. This will truly water down the M brand, especially in the general population as they will think that all these vehicles are true M cars. This is a horrible thing to do.
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      01-12-2012, 09:33 PM   #163
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M this M that is starting to sound stupid. What are they doing????????
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      01-12-2012, 09:39 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
I think this sucks and waters down the M brand. Every BMW is going to have an M badge on it. The cars we laughed at which slapped an M before the numeric designation like M750iL are coming true.

Unless this opens room for the real M cars to go balls to the wall and break away from the luxury market grip to become more hardcore sports cars, then I can't see ANY good coming from this to M enthusiasts or the M brand. M ALL THE THINGS!
+1

Let's BMW charge M prices for "M performance cars" and bump up cost of M cars so they become unattainable.

I would rather M stays the same and BMW creates adds the GT, GTS CSL badges to super high performance cars
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      01-12-2012, 09:45 PM   #165
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This sucks! BMW is diluting the iconic M badge by slapping it on any and everything. I thought the "M package" was bad enough, but this just takes it to a whole new level! WTF BMW?!?!?!?!?!?!
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      01-12-2012, 09:52 PM   #166
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For your information, the 1M has a N54 engine not N55 and it has been tuned by M division like the rest of the car. In case you are interested with the facts as well as opinions.
"tuned by the M division"
equals they ripped off parts from the M3/335is
And rushed it to the market in like 6 months
That's according to the M engineers, by the way.
They only reason they did the 1m , and made it in small numbers
Is to hype up demand for the next 1m which will be based on the new 1 series
To establish the name basically
Hence why they had to raid the parts bin to keep costs low
Actually as far as I know, the only part I can think of that was made exclusively for the 1m is the "powered by BMW M" sticker on the engine

Notice how even in the interview added on the front page, he doesn't refer to it as the 1m
But the 1 series M coupe
That must mean something...
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      01-12-2012, 09:53 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieDriving View Post
^^ Exactly.

Part of the reason M is so coveted is because of its exclusivity. Top engineering, top performance, relative rarity.

If M becomes too commonplace, it will lose its lustre, the same lustre that BMW is banking on to sell its "M Sport" kits and now "M Performance" versions of vehicles.

It's the way the world works. If every kid can receive an A, an A student is nothing special.
They are watering down the M name in order to make an extra buck, or in this case Euro. By slapping an M logo on most of their lineup they are making the BMW M brand as common as a Toyota. I'm not sure what they are thinking. The general population will definitely believe that all these vehicles are true M cars. How special will the M cars be when you'll see an M logo on every other car on the freeway.

Closing the gap between the entire lineup and the M cars will ruin it. The fact that they don't see that is a shame.

Oh well, I guess there is always other true performance cars out there. Better start looking.
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      01-12-2012, 09:54 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agentm View Post
M this M that is starting to sound stupid. What are they doing????????
+1
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      01-12-2012, 09:54 PM   #169
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Dear BMW, please make me a BMW Mi650Lisdx-DriveGTS-Individual quad-turbo-diesel-electric-hybrid crossover-gran-coupe-sedan with stop-start and a 9-speedDCT-with-a-clutch-pedal.
You say it as a joke now
Just wait and see...
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      01-12-2012, 09:59 PM   #170
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      01-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #171
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So then what was the M-Sport package? Wasn't that just M badges everywhere, aero kit and better suspension bits (ie. zhp and the 135i M sport, 335is)?

Or is this their way of selling 20hp software upgrades to their turbo power cars and add in the M-Sport additions.

I purposely picked an M car as my next driver since there were mountains of 3 series everywhere. Driving a 3 series doesn't mean much anymore, same for a 5. M still means something but if they water it down with M everything I'd think true M car sales will start to drop. BMW the next Honda. One on every street, in every garage and so unnoticeable.

That's why we have other options. If you don't like what they are doing, buy something else. I know I probably will.
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      01-12-2012, 10:14 PM   #172
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As said, intrinsically, esthetically as well as image-wise, a genuine ///M will always be ahead of any other copycat version, so M car owners shouldn't feel that BMW is bargaining too much of the exclusivity that their cars' price tag implies. I even quite often read that, all in all, M cars are generally considered as being good value for money compared to more exclusive brands (Porsche, etc.) given their outstanding versatility (performance and practicality), well that's what M is supposed to be after all

But this is precisely why M customers cannot ask for a relatively discreet and day-to-day practical supercar and at the same time for real exclusivity. Because by definition M cars are based on "regular" models, I mean classical looking front-engine sedans and coupés (and now SUVs). And also because BMW is now a global brand just like Ford or Peugeot - only more upmarket/premium - in that they are trying to fill in the slightest gap in their range, replying whenever its rivals Audi or Mercedes create a new genre in the premium market (e.g. Mercedes CLS or ML) or introducing new genres, only to be copied by the others later (e.g. X6). 20 years back, who would have thought of the Mercede A, B, ML or R Class, of the Audi A1, of the 5 Series GT or of the upcoming 1 Series GT minivan?.. Who would have thought that BMW would produce an ugly LWB F30 in China with disgusting chrome add-ons just to please the Chinese market? These 3 premium brands have already sold out their 'exclusivity' and traditional spirit long ago... Fortunately they continue to produce some fantastic supercars as well

For those looking for more exclusivity, see Porsche or Maserati, but you won't pay quite the same price and you won't get the same practicality... Those who choose BMW should accept that BMW is now a global brand with a diverse range trying to maximize its profits, including those of the M brand (which is BMW after all). Yes it's milking, but this is because M cars are fabulous and relatively cheap, hence successful, and a global brand like BMW has to milk this cow. Hence turborcharged M SUVs, etc. Oh but wait, even Porsche and Maserati now have 4 door saloons and SUVs

If the problem of some M owners is seeing the M badge utilized on anything other than 100% M cars... how come no one complained (at least to my knowledge) about the M Sport package and accessories, which if I'm not mistaken already existed as far back as the E30 3 Series, much before BMW took off as a massively selling global brand? How come BMW puts M logos on the steering wheel, door sills, instruments panel, etc. of a mere 320d? Well it's normal, M has become THE synonym of sportiness in a BMW, because it would be a shame and a great marketing loss to reserve the M badge only to supercars And again, if the M Sport exists with low range engines, the M Performance is that much more legitimate.

If the problem is specifically seeing the M logo on the TRUNK LID of the M Performance range (absent on the M Sport), then how about seeing things like this: BMW is itself a sporty premium brand (RWD, 50/50 mass...), offering many sporty models, so why not consider that the most sporty of them are worthy of the M badge? Not only the utmost raw and radical ///M cars (how many 0,..% of all BMW sales?) but also a few more downmarket versions which still offer great performance and styling compared to their stock versions. There are so many models in the BMW range now and so many yet to come (2 and 4 Series, X4...) that clearly labelling the most sporty with the M badge - not only the TOP supercar versions but a more large number of versions - kind of stratifies the range. And still, that would not thicken that much the crème de la crème layer of elite models on top of the range, as globally the percentage of cars wearing the M logo will remain relatively low compared to regular models. Keeping M closed to the most elitist versions (few in number) might seem good for the M image, but the benefits of such a strategy would be meagre in terms of image and finances. While associating the M logo with more downmarket models spills on them a lot of value which is good for the whole BMW brand, and only a little detrimental to M's image as seen by the (few in number) purists. And again, this doesn't mean making the M Performance look like the real M, which will always remain specific And then if the logo is the issue, anyway anyone could buy an M logo directly from BMW then glue it on the hatch of their 116d... but BMW knows that a true M car is worth much more than this label.

Last edited by advantage20; 01-13-2012 at 12:06 AM.
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      01-12-2012, 10:38 PM   #173
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Hmm... Noticed this the other day ordering cars, 2013 LCI X6's are availible for ordering for April production and the M Performance Package, code ZMX, is available on both the X6 35i and X6 50i models....
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      01-12-2012, 11:14 PM   #174
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2 cars driving down the road...

On the trunk lid

///M340i (rumored to be first M Performance model to come over to North America)

and

///M3

Even for auto enthusiasts, but not necessarily BMW nuts who know the fine details, isn't that confusing??

Or:

///M550i

vs.

///M5

Huh? Is the M550 the higher performance variant because it has another 5 after it?

If the new "335i M Sport with M Performance Parts", which I love btw, already looks like this:


Then the new M340i has to look even more aggressive, right?

Then how are they going to make the new (true) M3 two levels more aggressive than the M-Sports with M Performance Parts?

I was all for the new 335i M-Sport with M Performance Parts until I heard news of this new M Performance line. In fact, I was thinking, "Hey, maybe this will be the replacement for our 335i. Maybe we won't need to go all the way to the new F80 M3. As long as this is not only cosmetic enhancements, but some performance enhancements as well." But it won't be an M. And I wouldn't want it to have the M badge.

I hope they do it right. I guess we'll see at Geneva.
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      01-12-2012, 11:25 PM   #175
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This Estoril Blue 335i isn't even an F30 with M Performance body parts but simply a regular M Sport, so that would be 3 levels more agressive

Well considering that the F20 Performance Studie showcar was a show-off of the future ///M135i, so is the recenlty leaked F30 M Performance Studie a show-off of the ///M335i. If that is confirmed, we can say that the M Performance kits on these F20 and F30 basically take over the M Sport exterior kit except for some minor details (rear bottom end which isn't black but painted in the car's color and with a few vents, stickers on the body...). Just like the current 335is is very close to the M Sport 335i and the Z4 35is very close to the M Sport Z4. Take the stickers away and they are extremely close to their normal M Sport versions.




Upwards on the scale, BMW would basically have to enhance the style just one and a half notch up from the M Sport to differentiate the M3. Not difficult with a specific ///M front bumper (with the big 'mouth'), rear bumper with quad exhausts, side gills and, most of all, heavily widened wheel arches (seen on the M3 spies).

So if this really is how the M Performance will look like, then I wouldn't worry about a confusion between ///M335i and M3 but much more about a confusion between ///M335i and M Sport 335i, and even more a confusion between ///M335i and M Sport 335i with M Performance accessories if they will be available separately (it becomes complicated ) Well Audi for instance seems confident enough to issue the S versions of all of its very last models with the exact same exterior aero kits as the simple S-Line (only differences in grilles and rear exhausts).

Last edited by advantage20; 01-13-2012 at 12:09 AM.
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      01-12-2012, 11:40 PM   #176
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What's the goal of every corporation? Is it not to make money? Not only that, but making more money than the year before?

We, as BMW enthusiasts, are the proverbial drop in the bucket of BMW's revenue. You can't "whore" out a BMW, for "whoring" would indicate something that can be acquired rather cheaply. There's absolutely no chance of this new line of BMW cars to dilute the "M" brand. In this economy, where the narrow slice of the american population who can actually afford these cars are shrinking further, M enthusiasts have little to worry about.

We are the outsiders looking in and have no idea what BMW's balance sheet looks like. We automatically assume that they're making cash out the *ss, such new lines are unnecessary. I think we'd be wrong in that aspect. It's safe to say that the luxury market isn't get any bigger, but it's certainly getting ever more competitive. There is only one way for BMW to win more market share: by taking from its competitors' share. This is why the new 5 series is more 'Lexus-like' according to many reviews.

The introduction of the M Performance line is to differentiate luxury from sport. When people think BMW, they think 'sport' first, luxury a distant second. To increase profits and remain competitive, this perception has to change. Why are we so upset? This will not add confusion, but rather, it adds more choices. It's safe to say that the base models of the 5 and 7 series (as well as other models that are not entry-level) will be the most luxurious/least sporty. Instead of just offering a sport package in the past, there will be a separate line. This is a win!! How many times have we searched for BMWs (when buying/leasing), and we find one that's about perfect .. but no sport package. Isn't it infuriating? Now, that won't be an issue. If I'm looking for another 335i, I will just look for '335im' or whatever, because I know that it will have the performance that I'm seeking.

Heritage means nothing when it comes to marketing a product. Heritage can lead you to bankruptcy if you refuse to adapt to the current environments. There's a lot of people here jumping to conclusions that this announcement will dilute the current 1M/M3/M5. As someone has pointed out pages ago, isn't it conceivable that the new ///M series will actually have **more** focus on performance? For example, the next M3 may be significantly lighter due to deletion of luxury features and gadgets, with a stiffer suspension, making the M3 perform closer to the M3 GTS. Get the idea?

Let's give BMW some time before making presumptions that this is the end of the ///M era. For we could all be wrong, and may be the beginning of something newer, faster, stronger, more visceral ///M experience ...
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