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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Eric's HPF Single Turbo N54 Is ALIVE - VIDEO



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      01-16-2012, 09:17 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce View Post
[/b]

The volume of the intake mani, fly head, etc isn't changing. The volume of air being introduced by the larger turbo has increased. IDK why you're still arguing, a few different people (Inc. Shiv) have told you otherwise. If you're still not convinced, call hpf, full-race, Cobb tuning, or any shop that fits larger turbo's. They'll explain it to you.

One last piece of proof:

Acura rsx type S
greddy turbo kit @ 15PSI will make 300whp
full-race turbo (gt35 turbo) @ 15psi will make 500+ whp


Only variable is the turbo, manifold
This is correct... the only question I have is; "at what point is the turbo too big to still safely run 15 PSI? (i.e. at what point will the use of a larger turbo require lower boost for equal power to keep things safe)"?
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      01-16-2012, 09:35 PM   #200
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There is no point using an excessively large turbo if you dont plan on using it in its efficiency range. Said another way, you should match the turbo output to your power goals... So dont buy a turbo that can make 1000 HP if you only plan on making 500 cause all you will have is excessive lag and a horrible powerband.

As far as safety on this platform we dont know the limit of this motor....
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      01-16-2012, 09:43 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
There is no point using an excessively large turbo if you dont plan on using it in its efficiency range. Said another way, you should match the turbo output to your power goals... So dont buy a turbo that can make 1000 HP if you only plan on making 500 cause all you will have is excessive lag and a horrible powerband.

As far as safety on this platform we dont know the limit of this motor....
Like, I said... I am not an expert but is it plausible that the Rb's can make a lot more power?
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      01-16-2012, 10:10 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Questforpower View Post
Like, I said... I am not an expert but is it plausible that the Rb's can make a lot more power?
I believe the RB turbos are capable of a little more boost than what the current highest boosting N54 is running... but I might be wrong.

We're also limited to 22 psi IIRC due to the TMAP.
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      01-16-2012, 11:36 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brey335i View Post
I believe the RB turbos are capable of a little more boost than what the current highest boosting N54 is running... but I might be wrong.

We're also limited to 22 psi IIRC due to the TMAP.
Im not sure about on the N54, but on other platforms they can use "scaling" to simulate PSI above what the MAP can read. It doesn't really sound safe IMO, but it works from what i've read.
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      01-16-2012, 11:58 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Questforpower View Post
Like, I said... I am not an expert but is it plausible that the Rb's can make a lot more power?
Both the RB and ASR turbos wills struggle to make much more than 500-510whp. The compressors will certainly support more power than that. But the limiting factory is the relatively small and restrictive turbine housing/wheel.

It's also worth mentioning that a 500whp single turbo engine will be far less stressed than a 500whp RB/ASR turbo engine. Not only will it require considerably less boost to make that power, less heat will be retained in the head due to not having a heavy cast iron manifold bolted to the engine (acting like a heat sink).

Shiv
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      01-17-2012, 12:09 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Both the RB and ASR turbos wills struggle to make much more than 500-510whp. The compressors will certainly support more power than that. But the limiting factory is the relatively small and restrictive turbine housing/wheel.

It's also worth mentioning that a 500whp single turbo engine will be far less stressed than a 500whp RB/ASR turbo engine. Not only will it require considerably less boost to make that power, less heat will be retained in the head due to not having a heavy cast iron manifold bolted to the engine (acting like a heat sink).

Shiv
Thank you for pointing that out...
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      01-17-2012, 07:36 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Both the RB and ASR turbos wills struggle to make much more than 500-510whp. The compressors will certainly support more power than that. But the limiting factory is the relatively small and restrictive turbine housing/wheel.

It's also worth mentioning that a 500whp single turbo engine will be far less stressed than a 500whp RB/ASR turbo engine. Not only will it require considerably less boost to make that power, less heat will be retained in the head due to not having a heavy cast iron manifold bolted to the engine (acting like a heat sink).

Shiv
this is all very true. I would expect to see 500whp+ at only 15-16psi on this motor if all is tuned correctly.
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      01-17-2012, 08:04 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce View Post
One other way to look at it, then I'm done. Piccture a small balloon filled with 15psi or air. Then consider a gigantic balloon filled with 15psi of air. The large balloon has the same pressure, but a much larger mass or volume of air. Same is true for a small vs. Large turbo. If you still don't get it with that metaphor, fuck off and do more research on your own.
Brought to PM cause that's just retarded...
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      01-17-2012, 09:17 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Questforpower View Post
So the question remains... is it possible to safely run 18 psi on a larger turbo on pump gas (without blowing anything) and make more power when compared to 18 psi on the stockers with meth? I am not sure myself unless this power was made at a lower rpm or boost level... someone please explain this in laymans terms and how the curves would/should look on a larger turbo.
It is possible on pump, hence the needed fueling.. More air, more fuel, good AFRs, less restrictive, air flowing easily = more easy power.

The graph would look probably look like max torque at 4k+ rpm, all the way flat to redline, and HP will continue to rise from 5.5krpm all the way to 7k rpm if the revs are not adjusted ie: revving to 7.5 k rpm for instance. All speculation though.

How strong can they go? i say they need to show a minimum of 550whp or bust. On stage 1 that is, i think stage 2 with the rather small heads/ exhaust ports there might be more hardware upgrades.
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      01-17-2012, 11:58 AM   #209
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So the 25th and we will see it under load?

Finally.
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      01-17-2012, 12:54 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
You guys are confusing 18 PSI on small turbos and 18 PSI on a big turbo. 2 different amounts of air (CFM) and power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
Please explain because I don't understand. 18psi on the intake side of the cylinder head is 18psi no matter what the size of the turbo/turbos...You may transfer less heat from a more efficient turbocharger which would make the air more dense, but the CFM would not change. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Brought to PM cause that's just retarded...
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      01-17-2012, 01:03 PM   #211
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So the 25th and we will see it under load?

Finally.
Well, hopefully you will see it before then. The 25th is just when I get to get in it again. I live 3 hrs away. I only go when i can.
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      01-17-2012, 01:35 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce View Post
I made a signature! w00t

Perhaps I can help him understand a little more:

Take your typical passenger car tire at 32 PSI...

Now take a tractor trailer tire at 32 PSI... which has more air in the tire?

There is more air in the tractor trailer tire at 32 PSI then a passenger tire at 32 PSI.
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      01-17-2012, 01:42 PM   #213
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He's thinking of the TMAP pressure as if it's a reading from a fixed volume pressurized vessel. If that was the case 16psi=16psi, but thats not whats happening in the manifold.
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      01-17-2012, 01:42 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
I made a signature! w00t

Perhaps I can help him understand a little more:

Take your typical passenger car tire at 32 PSI...

Now take a tractor trailer tire at 32 PSI... which has more air in the tire?

There is more air in the tractor trailer tire at 32 PSI then a passenger tire at 32 PSI.
Unless the tractor has runflats.
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      01-17-2012, 01:53 PM   #215
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The bottom line (and what that fgt expensivetaste doesn't grasp) is that boost psi and cfm are two different variables. You can increase cfm without increasing psi. A larger turbo at the same boost as the stock turbo's will have a greater cfm value. More air (cfm) = more power. Period
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      01-17-2012, 01:58 PM   #216
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      01-17-2012, 02:01 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF Chris View Post
Thanks everyone. We will be able to target any boost and power level we want as we can swap turbos. Eric wants more than 500rwhp for his car so we are going to do this in stages. The 1st stage will be a small turbo (Precision 6265) that will spool very fast and still run on the factory direct injection. The 2nd stage will be a larger turbo with our intake manifold and fuel injectors and rail.

Before we can hit the dyno we need to build a strong engine brace support on the bottom of the car (right where the V-brace was). My guys will order up the metal tomorrow and we should have some dyno results later on in the week.

I can't post pricing on this thread but we already have pricing figured out.

Chris.
Thanks for the update!
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      01-17-2012, 02:08 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
I made a signature! w00t

Perhaps I can help him understand a little more:

Take your typical passenger car tire at 32 PSI...

Now take a tractor trailer tire at 32 PSI... which has more air in the tire?

There is more air in the tractor trailer tire at 32 PSI then a passenger tire at 32 PSI.
In the end we are talking about how much air we can get in the combustion chamber, right? "Air Mass" as you guys are saying. Well mass is a measure of the number of particles of air. The number of particles counted are limited to a specific volume. Yes, the piston is moving but the amount of air entering the combustion chamber will be based on the pressure differential and the available space to establish equilibrium. Obviously air travels at a specific rate of speed into the combustion chamber (flow) but it is limited by the cross sectional area of the intake port, the distance the air must flow, and the pressure differential could either speed the flow up or if the differential is higher or the opposite. Now tell me how increasing the size of the turbocharger will affect any of these parameters given temperature and pressure is kept constant between the two applications. Please don't respond with we have a big tire/balloon and a small one because it doesn't apply.
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      01-17-2012, 02:10 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer View Post
Unless the tractor has runflats.
At 32psi the tire is flat lol tractor trailers run 90-100psi in the tires
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      01-17-2012, 02:15 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
It is possible on pump, hence the needed fueling.. More air, more fuel, good AFRs, less restrictive, air flowing easily = more easy power.

The graph would look probably look like max torque at 4k+ rpm, all the way flat to redline, and HP will continue to rise from 5.5krpm all the way to 7k rpm if the revs are not adjusted ie: revving to 7.5 k rpm for instance. All speculation though.

How strong can they go? i say they need to show a minimum of 550whp or bust. On stage 1 that is, i think stage 2 with the rather small heads/ exhaust ports there might be more hardware upgrades.
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