E90Post
 


TireRack
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Eric's HPF Single Turbo N54 Is ALIVE - VIDEO



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-17-2012, 02:20 PM   #221
bryce
Banned
57
Rep
3,177
Posts

 
Drives: zhp 3-pedal
Join Date: May 2010
Location: texas

iTrader: (22)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
In the end we are talking about how much air we can get in the combustion chamber, right? "Air Mass" as you guys are saying. Well mass is a measure of the number of particles of air. The number of particles counted are limited to a specific volume. Yes, the piston is moving but the amount of air entering the combustion chamber will be based on the pressure differential and the available space to establish equilibrium. Obviously air travels at a specific rate of speed into the combustion chamber (flow) but it is limited by the cross sectional area of the intake port, the distance the air must flow, and the pressure differential could either speed the flow up or if the differential is higher or the opposite. Now tell me how increasing the size of the turbocharger will affect any of these parameters given temperature and pressure is kept constant between the two applications. Please don't respond with we have a big tire/balloon and a small one because it doesn't apply.
Like I told you in PM's, flow = CFM = velocity

Increasing CFM increases the velocity of the air entering the combustion chamber. More air at a higher velocity (at the same boost pressure) = more power.



Look up any other platform. A bigger turbo on the same engine, at the same boost, will yield more power (even with the only variable being the turbo)
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:21 PM   #222
the infamous...
Relapsed Bimmerpost Addict
the infamous...'s Avatar
United_States
435
Rep
17,533
Posts

 
Drives: like I'M BOUT THAT LIFE
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: PARADISE aka CANES COUNTRY

iTrader: (0)

oh fuck, thas legit!
__________________


"simple is clean" -The ///ModFather
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:24 PM   #223
Q4P
Colonel
Q4P's Avatar
United_States
33
Rep
2,295
Posts

 
Drives: Too Much
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: World

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce View Post
Like I told you in PM's, flow = CFM = velocity

Increasing CFM increases the velocity of the air entering the combustion chamber. More air at a higher velocity (at the same boost pressure) = more power.



Look up any other platform. A bigger turbo on the same engine, at the same boost, will yield more power (even with the only variable being the turbo)
yep, this is why the idea is to make 500 WHP or so at a lower boost or the same boost given that its safe to do so
__________________
2jZ + RB26 + 4G63 + LS9 + N54 =
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:25 PM   #224
Jeff@TopGearSolutions
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Jeff@TopGearSolutions's Avatar
United_States
246
Rep
18,414
Posts


 
Drives: C6 Z06, GSXR-750, 09 335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: TopGearSolutions.com

iTrader: (32)

Send a message via AIM to Jeff@TopGearSolutions
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
In the end we are talking about how much air we can get in the combustion chamber, right? "Air Mass" as you guys are saying. Well mass is a measure of the number of particles of air. The number of particles counted are limited to a specific volume. Yes, the piston is moving but the amount of air entering the combustion chamber will be based on the pressure differential and the available space to establish equilibrium. Obviously air travels at a specific rate of speed into the combustion chamber (flow) but it is limited by the cross sectional area of the intake port, the distance the air must flow, and the pressure differential could either speed the flow up or if the differential is higher or the opposite. Now tell me how increasing the size of the turbocharger will affect any of these parameters given temperature and pressure is kept constant between the two applications. Please don't respond with we have a big tire/balloon and a small one because it doesn't apply.
More air...More CFM...More velocity.
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:31 PM   #225
quattrosaint
Lieutenant
quattrosaint's Avatar
13
Rep
554
Posts

 
Drives: Fast
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dallas

iTrader: (5)

Really simple...... Think of our turbo's as a straw and think of the Precision turbo as a garden hose. More air, more volume, same psi passing through it.
__________________
[size="2"]335 E92 Space Gray/Coral/Aluminum/6MT
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:33 PM   #226
ExpensiveTaste
Poor Kid with Dreams
ExpensiveTaste's Avatar
United_States
10
Rep
702
Posts

 
Drives: BSM 07 E90 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Danbury, CT

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce View Post
Like I told you in PM's, flow = CFM = velocity

Increasing CFM increases the velocity of the air entering the combustion chamber. More air at a higher velocity (at the same boost pressure) = more power.



Look up any other platform. A bigger turbo on the same engine, at the same boost, will yield more power (even with the only variable being the turbo)
Look up Bernoulli's principle. Keeping RPM's the same (increasing RPM's means you reach the first stroke more over a period of time) you will have the same pressure differential from the combustion chamber to the intake manifold/cylinder head ports which controls flow/CFM/air velocity/whatever you want to call it. So show me a graph with same IAT's, boost at the same RPM where a larger turbo created 200whp more than a smaller turbo where the smaller turbo wasn't already choking at that RPM/boost (That's different because it's air turbulence).
__________________

'07 BSM 335xi JB4, DCI, CX Racing I/C, ER Chargepipe, Meth, KW V3 - Pending Sale
'95 Mustang GTS 347ci Ported TFS TW Heads,Custom Cam,Victor 5.0 IM,Tubular Front Suspension,Full Exhaust,Big and Littles
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:34 PM   #227
AYF80
Captain
11
Rep
967
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 AY F80
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Nashville, TN

iTrader: (0)

I dont understand why we care about a specific boost number... who cares, why does it matter if we can run the car at X Boost? All that matters is that the boost is set at what ever number it needs to be set at to make the max power. I could care less if the turbo is set to run 3 PSI, as long as its making the target power.

just know the larger the turbo, the less boost is needed to make the same or more power than a smaller turbo.
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:35 PM   #228
MDORPHN
Colonel
41
Rep
2,550
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wash, DC

iTrader: (0)

And less boost, less heat, greater efficiency.

Neil
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:35 PM   #229
Jeff@TopGearSolutions
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Jeff@TopGearSolutions's Avatar
United_States
246
Rep
18,414
Posts


 
Drives: C6 Z06, GSXR-750, 09 335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: TopGearSolutions.com

iTrader: (32)

Send a message via AIM to Jeff@TopGearSolutions
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
Look up Bernoulli's principle. Keeping RPM's the same (increasing RPM's means you reach the first stroke more over a period of time) you will have the same pressure differential from the combustion chamber to the intake manifold/cylinder head ports which controls flow/CFM/air velocity/whatever you want to call it. So show me a graph with same IAT's, boost at the same RPM where a larger turbo created 200whp more than a smaller turbo where the smaller turbo wasn't already choking at that RPM/boost (That's different because it's air turbulence).
If you are trying to convince everyone here that a larger turbo at the same PSI makes = or less power then a smaller one then you sir need to prove us wrong.

99% of us here already understand physics and how it works.

Please stop derailing this thread cause you dont understand.
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:40 PM   #230
E3r2E9r
Banned
5
Rep
421
Posts

 
Drives: 3 Series
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NE

iTrader: (0)

After about 1 or 2 people convincing you that you'r incorrect you would think he would drop the subject. Now he has the entire community telling him he is wrong and he still insist that he is right. Take a hint bro.

Expensive taste, cheapest intercooler, cheapest tune. Good job.
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:40 PM   #231
bryce
Banned
57
Rep
3,177
Posts

 
Drives: zhp 3-pedal
Join Date: May 2010
Location: texas

iTrader: (22)

Garage List
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:41 PM   #232
ProbyOne
Private
ProbyOne's Avatar
United_States
0
Rep
63
Posts

 
Drives: Acura TL / E93 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: LA

iTrader: (0)

If manifold temperature and pressure do not change then air flow will not change at a given rpm.
__________________
you are a winner
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:43 PM   #233
Joshboody
Lieutenant Colonel
25
Rep
1,708
Posts

 
Drives: pickemuptruck
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ

iTrader: (7)

You are forgetting about the exhaust side, which is the limiting factor here. Less pressure in the exhafold better evacuation of the cylinder and more room to fill from the intake side.

Smaller twins and single may create the similar cylinder fills at Xpsi within efficiency ranges, but the single can produce more air flow so this cylinder fill happens at a higher rpm… extending the VE curve, or a new curve at higher rpms… more power. But peak torque could be reduced depending on engine VE (heads mainly) at this new rpm range.

It's a communal effort in helping

Last edited by Joshboody; 01-17-2012 at 02:46 PM. Reason: wording
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:45 PM   #234
scottp999
Brigadier General
scottp999's Avatar
57
Rep
4,666
Posts

 
Drives: 335i - E92 - 6MT & 4runner SR5
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: MD

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2007 BMW 335  [4.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce View Post
Like I told you in PM's, flow = CFM = velocity

Increasing CFM increases the velocity of the air entering the combustion chamber. More air at a higher velocity (at the same boost pressure) = more power.



Look up any other platform. A bigger turbo on the same engine, at the same boost, will yield more power (even with the only variable being the turbo)
What's your guess on the point the air flow through the tiny head ports matters/becomes a limiting factor on the stock head?
__________________
Rob Beck Turbos, PROcede Rev. 3, Procede Fueling Flash (via OpenFlash Tablet), PPS Methanol System (Devil's Own 12 GPH Nozzle/Aquamist Flow Sensor/Labonte VC25), DCI, Quaife LSD, BMW Performance Suspension, Autobahn Exotics Exhaust, Helix FMIC, AR Design Downpipes, BSH Catch Can, Forge Diverter Valves, P3cars Vent Boost Gauge, Alufelgen CSL Reps, Lux 5.1 H8 Angel Eyes, HPB HID Fogs, LTBMW M3 Side Skirts, BMW M3 Rear Spoiler, BMW Front Aero Lip, BMW Pedal Kit, BMW M Shift Knob, Autotecknic Matte Black Grilles.
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 02:55 PM   #235
AYF80
Captain
11
Rep
967
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 AY F80
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Nashville, TN

iTrader: (0)

I think we are good till 700HP
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 03:00 PM   #236
ExpensiveTaste
Poor Kid with Dreams
ExpensiveTaste's Avatar
United_States
10
Rep
702
Posts

 
Drives: BSM 07 E90 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Danbury, CT

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
If you are trying to convince everyone here that a larger turbo at the same PSI makes = or less power then a smaller one then you sir need to prove us wrong.

99% of us here already understand physics and how it works.

Please stop derailing this thread cause you dont understand.
I'm not saying that all. What I'm saying is that you will gain power throughout the RPM range (minus the lower end) due to heat savings and the ability to add timing from this lower volatility of the incoming mixture. But this will not be an extraordinary option for people who want to keep low boost because the numbers will not be a huge difference until you get to the point in the RPM band where our original turbos run out of steam. The place where this turbo upgrade will really shine is when we increase the boost and have it until redline or hopefully higher.
__________________

'07 BSM 335xi JB4, DCI, CX Racing I/C, ER Chargepipe, Meth, KW V3 - Pending Sale
'95 Mustang GTS 347ci Ported TFS TW Heads,Custom Cam,Victor 5.0 IM,Tubular Front Suspension,Full Exhaust,Big and Littles
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 03:05 PM   #237
CubanJJ09
Banned
United_States
133
Rep
12,692
Posts

 
Drives: like an asshole
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicago Burbs

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2007 BMW 335i  [3.09]
Send a message via AIM to CubanJJ09
Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer View Post
Unless the tractor has runflats.
Cause it adds 17whp
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 03:05 PM   #238
bryce
Banned
57
Rep
3,177
Posts

 
Drives: zhp 3-pedal
Join Date: May 2010
Location: texas

iTrader: (22)

Garage List
^incorrect still. Low boost (12psi) on a precision 60 or 70 series turbo should be plenty for most users. It could be over 400whp
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 03:12 PM   #239
ExpensiveTaste
Poor Kid with Dreams
ExpensiveTaste's Avatar
United_States
10
Rep
702
Posts

 
Drives: BSM 07 E90 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Danbury, CT

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce View Post
^incorrect still. Low boost (12psi) on a precision 60 or 70 series turbo should be plenty for most users. It could be over 400whp
Did you read a thing I said?...at what boost? Ya, it might make 400whp at 7200rpms but at 12psi at the same RPM, the two will make similar power with the bigger turbo having a minor advantage with heat savings and the ability to run more timing advance. Are you a peak type person or an area under the curve person??? Sounds like a dyno queen type of person.
__________________

'07 BSM 335xi JB4, DCI, CX Racing I/C, ER Chargepipe, Meth, KW V3 - Pending Sale
'95 Mustang GTS 347ci Ported TFS TW Heads,Custom Cam,Victor 5.0 IM,Tubular Front Suspension,Full Exhaust,Big and Littles
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 03:15 PM   #240
jpsimon
Team Zissou
jpsimon's Avatar
United_States
164
Rep
9,017
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 STi
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CT

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
I'm not saying that all. What I'm saying is that you will gain power throughout the RPM range (minus the lower end) due to heat savings and the ability to add timing from this lower volatility of the incoming mixture. But this will not be an extraordinary option for people who want to keep low boost because the numbers will not be a huge difference until you get to the point in the RPM band where our original turbos run out of steam. The place where this turbo upgrade will really shine is when we increase the boost and have it until redline or hopefully higher.
is this your first turbo car? just curious
__________________
2015 STi / 335xi (solid)
www.datazap.me - fast, free, interactive data log viewing

Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 03:15 PM   #241
Yodaime
Just a normal member.
Yodaime's Avatar
Vietnam
58
Rep
3,402
Posts

 
Drives: Banh Xeo
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Louisiana

iTrader: (12)

335is Buddies! Lets Start The Group Buy Nao!!!!!!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrrm1127 View Post
My life is complete. Yodaime has commented on a post with my car in it.
Appreciate 0
      01-17-2012, 03:20 PM   #242
bryce
Banned
57
Rep
3,177
Posts

 
Drives: zhp 3-pedal
Join Date: May 2010
Location: texas

iTrader: (22)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
Did you read a thing I said?...at what boost? Ya, it might make 400whp at 7200rpms but at 12psi at the same RPM, the two will make similar power with the bigger turbo having a minor advantage with heat savings and the ability to run more timing advance. Are you a peak type person or an area under the curve person??? Sounds like a dyno queen type of person.

although this is on honda platforms, this link proves you're full of shit. a bigger turbo will have more power at the same rpm's as a smaller turbo, in teh mid and upper rpm range (where your rpms will be in performance driving). low rpm's don't matter. nobody tries to go fast by shifting at 3.5 or 4k rpms. it will have "more area under the curve" all things considered. that is the argument you're making now, correct?

http://www.full-race.com/articles/gt_turbo_selector.pdf



Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
is this your first turbo car? just curious
i'd be shocked if it wasn't

Last edited by bryce; 01-17-2012 at 03:27 PM.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
hpf single turbo, single turbo n54

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:16 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST