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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Eric's HPF Single Turbo N54 Is ALIVE - VIDEO



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      01-17-2012, 02:20 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
In the end we are talking about how much air we can get in the combustion chamber, right? "Air Mass" as you guys are saying. Well mass is a measure of the number of particles of air. The number of particles counted are limited to a specific volume. Yes, the piston is moving but the amount of air entering the combustion chamber will be based on the pressure differential and the available space to establish equilibrium. Obviously air travels at a specific rate of speed into the combustion chamber (flow) but it is limited by the cross sectional area of the intake port, the distance the air must flow, and the pressure differential could either speed the flow up or if the differential is higher or the opposite. Now tell me how increasing the size of the turbocharger will affect any of these parameters given temperature and pressure is kept constant between the two applications. Please don't respond with we have a big tire/balloon and a small one because it doesn't apply.
Like I told you in PM's, flow = CFM = velocity

Increasing CFM increases the velocity of the air entering the combustion chamber. More air at a higher velocity (at the same boost pressure) = more power.



Look up any other platform. A bigger turbo on the same engine, at the same boost, will yield more power (even with the only variable being the turbo)
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      01-17-2012, 02:21 PM   #222
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      01-17-2012, 02:24 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce View Post
Like I told you in PM's, flow = CFM = velocity

Increasing CFM increases the velocity of the air entering the combustion chamber. More air at a higher velocity (at the same boost pressure) = more power.



Look up any other platform. A bigger turbo on the same engine, at the same boost, will yield more power (even with the only variable being the turbo)
yep, this is why the idea is to make 500 WHP or so at a lower boost or the same boost given that its safe to do so
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      01-17-2012, 02:25 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
In the end we are talking about how much air we can get in the combustion chamber, right? "Air Mass" as you guys are saying. Well mass is a measure of the number of particles of air. The number of particles counted are limited to a specific volume. Yes, the piston is moving but the amount of air entering the combustion chamber will be based on the pressure differential and the available space to establish equilibrium. Obviously air travels at a specific rate of speed into the combustion chamber (flow) but it is limited by the cross sectional area of the intake port, the distance the air must flow, and the pressure differential could either speed the flow up or if the differential is higher or the opposite. Now tell me how increasing the size of the turbocharger will affect any of these parameters given temperature and pressure is kept constant between the two applications. Please don't respond with we have a big tire/balloon and a small one because it doesn't apply.
More air...More CFM...More velocity.
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      01-17-2012, 02:31 PM   #225
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Really simple...... Think of our turbo's as a straw and think of the Precision turbo as a garden hose. More air, more volume, same psi passing through it.
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      01-17-2012, 02:33 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce View Post
Like I told you in PM's, flow = CFM = velocity

Increasing CFM increases the velocity of the air entering the combustion chamber. More air at a higher velocity (at the same boost pressure) = more power.



Look up any other platform. A bigger turbo on the same engine, at the same boost, will yield more power (even with the only variable being the turbo)
Look up Bernoulli's principle. Keeping RPM's the same (increasing RPM's means you reach the first stroke more over a period of time) you will have the same pressure differential from the combustion chamber to the intake manifold/cylinder head ports which controls flow/CFM/air velocity/whatever you want to call it. So show me a graph with same IAT's, boost at the same RPM where a larger turbo created 200whp more than a smaller turbo where the smaller turbo wasn't already choking at that RPM/boost (That's different because it's air turbulence).
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      01-17-2012, 02:34 PM   #227
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I dont understand why we care about a specific boost number... who cares, why does it matter if we can run the car at X Boost? All that matters is that the boost is set at what ever number it needs to be set at to make the max power. I could care less if the turbo is set to run 3 PSI, as long as its making the target power.

just know the larger the turbo, the less boost is needed to make the same or more power than a smaller turbo.
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      01-17-2012, 02:35 PM   #228
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And less boost, less heat, greater efficiency.

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      01-17-2012, 02:35 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
Look up Bernoulli's principle. Keeping RPM's the same (increasing RPM's means you reach the first stroke more over a period of time) you will have the same pressure differential from the combustion chamber to the intake manifold/cylinder head ports which controls flow/CFM/air velocity/whatever you want to call it. So show me a graph with same IAT's, boost at the same RPM where a larger turbo created 200whp more than a smaller turbo where the smaller turbo wasn't already choking at that RPM/boost (That's different because it's air turbulence).
If you are trying to convince everyone here that a larger turbo at the same PSI makes = or less power then a smaller one then you sir need to prove us wrong.

99% of us here already understand physics and how it works.

Please stop derailing this thread cause you dont understand.
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      01-17-2012, 02:40 PM   #230
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After about 1 or 2 people convincing you that you'r incorrect you would think he would drop the subject. Now he has the entire community telling him he is wrong and he still insist that he is right. Take a hint bro.

Expensive taste, cheapest intercooler, cheapest tune. Good job.
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      01-17-2012, 02:40 PM   #231
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      01-17-2012, 02:41 PM   #232
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If manifold temperature and pressure do not change then air flow will not change at a given rpm.
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      01-17-2012, 02:43 PM   #233
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You are forgetting about the exhaust side, which is the limiting factor here. Less pressure in the exhafold better evacuation of the cylinder and more room to fill from the intake side.

Smaller twins and single may create the similar cylinder fills at Xpsi within efficiency ranges, but the single can produce more air flow so this cylinder fill happens at a higher rpm… extending the VE curve, or a new curve at higher rpms… more power. But peak torque could be reduced depending on engine VE (heads mainly) at this new rpm range.

It's a communal effort in helping

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      01-17-2012, 02:45 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryce View Post
Like I told you in PM's, flow = CFM = velocity

Increasing CFM increases the velocity of the air entering the combustion chamber. More air at a higher velocity (at the same boost pressure) = more power.



Look up any other platform. A bigger turbo on the same engine, at the same boost, will yield more power (even with the only variable being the turbo)
What's your guess on the point the air flow through the tiny head ports matters/becomes a limiting factor on the stock head?
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      01-17-2012, 02:55 PM   #235
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I think we are good till 700HP
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      01-17-2012, 03:00 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
If you are trying to convince everyone here that a larger turbo at the same PSI makes = or less power then a smaller one then you sir need to prove us wrong.

99% of us here already understand physics and how it works.

Please stop derailing this thread cause you dont understand.
I'm not saying that all. What I'm saying is that you will gain power throughout the RPM range (minus the lower end) due to heat savings and the ability to add timing from this lower volatility of the incoming mixture. But this will not be an extraordinary option for people who want to keep low boost because the numbers will not be a huge difference until you get to the point in the RPM band where our original turbos run out of steam. The place where this turbo upgrade will really shine is when we increase the boost and have it until redline or hopefully higher.
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      01-17-2012, 03:05 PM   #237
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Unless the tractor has runflats.
Cause it adds 17whp
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      01-17-2012, 03:05 PM   #238
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^incorrect still. Low boost (12psi) on a precision 60 or 70 series turbo should be plenty for most users. It could be over 400whp
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      01-17-2012, 03:12 PM   #239
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^incorrect still. Low boost (12psi) on a precision 60 or 70 series turbo should be plenty for most users. It could be over 400whp
Did you read a thing I said?...at what boost? Ya, it might make 400whp at 7200rpms but at 12psi at the same RPM, the two will make similar power with the bigger turbo having a minor advantage with heat savings and the ability to run more timing advance. Are you a peak type person or an area under the curve person??? Sounds like a dyno queen type of person.
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      01-17-2012, 03:15 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
I'm not saying that all. What I'm saying is that you will gain power throughout the RPM range (minus the lower end) due to heat savings and the ability to add timing from this lower volatility of the incoming mixture. But this will not be an extraordinary option for people who want to keep low boost because the numbers will not be a huge difference until you get to the point in the RPM band where our original turbos run out of steam. The place where this turbo upgrade will really shine is when we increase the boost and have it until redline or hopefully higher.
is this your first turbo car? just curious
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      01-17-2012, 03:15 PM   #241
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      01-17-2012, 03:20 PM   #242
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Did you read a thing I said?...at what boost? Ya, it might make 400whp at 7200rpms but at 12psi at the same RPM, the two will make similar power with the bigger turbo having a minor advantage with heat savings and the ability to run more timing advance. Are you a peak type person or an area under the curve person??? Sounds like a dyno queen type of person.

although this is on honda platforms, this link proves you're full of shit. a bigger turbo will have more power at the same rpm's as a smaller turbo, in teh mid and upper rpm range (where your rpms will be in performance driving). low rpm's don't matter. nobody tries to go fast by shifting at 3.5 or 4k rpms. it will have "more area under the curve" all things considered. that is the argument you're making now, correct?

http://www.full-race.com/articles/gt_turbo_selector.pdf



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is this your first turbo car? just curious
i'd be shocked if it wasn't

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