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      01-19-2012, 06:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbintx View Post
Senna and Schumacher are locks for 1 and 2. End of discussion. After that it gets tricky.

Alonso is probably top 5 material.
Prost was a GREAT tactician; he's not top 5 on driving skill.
Villeneuve was just ballsier than the rest.
Mansell was a robot.
It's too soon for Vettel, but he'll get there soon.

Raikkonen, Button, Hamilton are not close to the top 5.
yup. Senna and Shumi are bounded the rest is strictly emotional or personnal.
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      01-19-2012, 06:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by az34 View Post
i cant see Button on a top 5 list,maybe i'd miss something.
Button is a top driver with a world championship under his belt and the smoothest of drivers but being a ferrari fan you probably have not noticed, his driving style is not unlike Gilles Villeneuve
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      01-19-2012, 06:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ZURICH View Post
Button is a top driver with a world championship under his belt and the smoothest of drivers but being a ferrari fan you probably have not noticed, his driving style is not unlike Gilles Villeneuve
not a diehard scuderia fan, but it seems that all the greatest has or will drive for them.
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      01-19-2012, 07:21 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZURICH View Post
Button is a top driver with a world championship under his belt and the smoothest of drivers but being a ferrari fan you probably have not noticed, his driving style is not unlike Gilles Villeneuve
Let's also not forget he managed to get second place last season after a crap first half of the season. His win during the Canadian GP was fantastic IMO.
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      01-19-2012, 09:33 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbintx View Post
Senna and Schumacher are locks for 1 and 2. End of discussion. After that it gets tricky.

Alonso is probably top 5 material.
Prost was a GREAT tactician; he's not top 5 on driving skill.
Villeneuve was just ballsier than the rest.
Mansell was a robot.
It's too soon for Vettel, but he'll get there soon.

Raikkonen, Button, Hamilton are not close to the top 5.
Totally agree...Ayrton and Schumi are easy 1-2 candidates. Candidates for slots 3-5 is a very hard gap indeed to fill. But I will give it a try.


1990-Present:
1. Ayrton (no words to describe)
2. Schumi (more of a numbers guy more than pure talent if you ask me)
3. Alonso (can't stand this man, however I do respect talent)
4. Kimi (he has had the worst luck out of all of them)
5. Vettel (would like to see him in something other than a RB, or better, something not designed by Newey)

I would also like to include Hamilton, he is probably the driver who most reminds me of Ayrton. The man just losses his head every once in a while. I do expect big things from him this year though.
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      01-19-2012, 11:07 PM   #28
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mm cool debate. I always thought JV had a hint of his das's style (breaking dead LAST) I've never seen the resemblance with Jenson, but fair enough.
To those surprised about Schumacher > Senna (as posted by others too), I think there are 2 things here:
- Senna is a martyr, you just can't reasonably argue with that
- I consider Schumacher a more complete driver in every way: he has talent like no other (perhaps Senna? hard to say, really), dedicated, technical, athletic, aggressive, brave, consistent, strategic... you name it, and he's got it in spades. PERHAPS, you could say he is not a great qualifier (always focussing on the race). I think a lot of people think that he is only famous for being overly dominant for so long... which tends to cloud his achievements. To them, I say: did you see him race throughout? Or did you read it on Wikipedia? Trust me, there is a big difference. This man raced (and beat) Mansell, Prost, Patrese, Senna, Hill, Villeneuve, Raikonnen, Alonso, Hakinnen, Button... basically anyone since '91. Now he is back doing what no one has done before, again (oldest driver). Just the fact that he is competitive is impressive enough (Mansell came back the second time and didn't even fit in the car).
I'm not dissing Senna, but let's face it, he passed away and we will never find out.

P.S. If you are thinking of bringing up Schumacher's championship deciding crashes, think of Prost & Senna first.

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      01-19-2012, 11:57 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raisemyrent View Post
mm cool debate. I always thought JV had a hint of his das's style (breaking dead LAST) I've never seen the resemblance with Jenson, but fair enough.
To those surprised about Schumacher > Senna (as posted by others too), I think there are 2 things here:
- Senna is a martyr, you just can't reasonably argue with that
- I consider Schumacher a more complete driver in every way: he has talent like no other (perhaps Senna? hard to say, really), dedicated, technical, athletic, aggressive, brave, consistent, strategic... you name it, and he's got it in spades. PERHAPS, you could say he is not a great qualifier (always focussing on the race). I think a lot of people think that he is only famous for being overly dominant for so long... which tends to cloud his achievements. To them, I say: did you see him race throughout? Or did you read it on Wikipedia? Trust me, there is a big difference. This man raced (and beat) Mansell, Prost, Patrese, Senna, Hill, Villeneuve, Raikonnen, Alonso, Hakinnen, Button... basically anyone since '91. Now he is back doing what no one has done before, again (oldest driver). Just the fact that he is competitive is impressive enough (Mansell came back the second time and didn't even fit in the car).
I'm not dissing Senna, but let's face it, he passed away and we will never find out.

P.S. If you are thinking of bringing up Schumacher's championship deciding crashes, think of Prost & Senna first.

cheers
First off Schumacher was spanking no one in '91. He was merely coming up the ranks. He has amassed the most points, statistics, championships, etc throughout his illustrious career in F1. Schumacher however is not the greatest driver (skill wise). He was and is a perfect tactician; he always wisely chose his teammates and always had an outstanding technical staff to attend all his needs. But he will never beat an Ayrton in the rain or beat a solid teammate, case in point Nico Rosberg.

If you don't believe me watch this video where he himself says so at 2:40:



I love everything about Senna and I do understand those that place Schumi over Ayrton as a better champion but surely not as a better driver.
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      01-20-2012, 06:22 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az34 View Post
very interesting list , but wheres Gilles Villeneuve!
He died, in an accident with Mass 30 @ Zolder Belgium 30 years or so ago....
But hey, that obviously wasn't your real question and you knew that.Your Canadian.

GV never was world champion, maybe that's why he wasn't in the list?

But remember Scheckter, Reutemann, worldchamps of an era, but not the best ever....

Laffitte, Pironi, Johansson, Patrese, Arnoux, Lauda, Andretti, Fittipaldi....

Many names.
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      01-20-2012, 08:48 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
He died, in an accident with Mass 30 @ Zolder Belgium 30 years or so ago....
But hey, that obviously wasn't your real question and you knew that.Your Canadian.

GV never was world champion, maybe that's why he wasn't in the list?

But remember Scheckter, Reutemann, worldchamps of an era, but not the best ever....

Laffitte, Pironi, Johansson, Patrese, Arnoux, Lauda, Andretti, Fittipaldi....

Many names.
your right theres a lot of great names outhere, p.s. even if i'm Canadian i'd never recognize Jacques Villeneuve (Gilles son) as a great one.
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      01-20-2012, 09:21 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az34 View Post
c mon Mika has'nt proof nothing yet.
I'm not sure I understand this comment at all...

Hakkinen definitely deserves the spot of Raikkonen.
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      01-20-2012, 09:26 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigiggs View Post
But he will never beat an Ayrton in the rain or beat a solid teammate, case in point Nico Rosberg.
So, you've never heard Schumacher refered to as "Regenmeister" (Rainmaster)? Because this became a pretty prominent nickname for him. As for the video, all Schumacher says is that he was number 1. But really what else would he have said there, "No, I'm #1"? That would have gone over well...

Anyways, I don't necessarily think Schumacher was better than Ayrton. I think it's a bit futile to try.
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      01-20-2012, 09:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigiggs View Post
First off Schumacher was spanking no one in '91. He was merely coming up the ranks. He has amassed the most points, statistics, championships, etc throughout his illustrious career in F1. Schumacher however is not the greatest driver (skill wise). He was and is a perfect tactician; he always wisely chose his teammates and always had an outstanding technical staff to attend all his needs. But he will never beat an Ayrton in the rain or beat a solid teammate, case in point Nico Rosberg.

If you don't believe me watch this video where he himself says so at 2:40:



I love everything about Senna and I do understand those that place Schumi over Ayrton as a better champion but surely not as a better driver.
I don't think anyone can so easily make such a conclusion.

Senna was at the peak his career, whereas Schumacher only had a couple seasons under his belt, when Senna perished. To say that one was more skilled than the other in their prime is to do injustice to both of them.

There were some stunning drives in both the wet and the dry from both drivers. Senna's stunning win at Interlagos with half his gearbox missing and Schumacher's domination of the Spanish GP in 1996 in a vastly inferior Ferrari are two prime examples.

Back on topic - if we are talking about the best COMPLETE drivers, it would have to be:

1. Schumacher
2. Prost
3. Alonso
4. Senna
5. Mansell

If we are talking about the quickest (sheer pace and overtaking ability):

1.) Senna
2.) Mansell
3.) Schumacher
4.) Gilles Villeneuve
5.) Hakkinen/Alonso

I can't really include the recent ensemble into the discussion (Hamilton, Vettel, etc.) as they are too early in their careers to properly judge them. But I would not be surprised to see both of them end up on the top 5 list at some point in the future.
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      01-20-2012, 09:39 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuo View Post
1.Senna
2.Shumacher
3.Hakinnen
4.Button
5.Raikonnen
I know that this is all opinionated, but you think that Button is a greater driver than Prost, Mansell, Hakkinen, Alonso, or Gilles Villeneuve? Hmm...
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      01-20-2012, 10:13 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
I know that this is all opinionated, but you think that Button is a greater driver than Prost, Mansell, Hakkinen, Alonso, or Gilles Villeneuve? Hmm...
These are semantics, but in his defense he listed Hakkinen.

I thought we decided that contemporary was more '90s+, not the last 35 years. By this, Gilles Villeneuve isn't within the scope of this conversation.
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      01-20-2012, 10:19 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
These are semantics, but in his defense he listed Hakkinen.

I thought we decided that contemporary was more '90s+, not the last 35 years. By this, Gilles Villeneuve isn't within the scope of this conversation.
Thanks for the clarification. I was following the OP. Might have to amend my post, in that case
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      01-20-2012, 10:54 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
So, you've never heard Schumacher refered to as "Regenmeister" (Rainmaster)? Because this became a pretty prominent nickname for him. As for the video, all Schumacher says is that he was number 1. But really what else would he have said there, "No, I'm #1"? That would have gone over well...

Anyways, I don't necessarily think Schumacher was better than Ayrton. I think it's a bit futile to try.
Of course I've heard Schumacher being referred to as the "rainmaster", my only point was that as a driver Ayrton > Schumacher rain, shine, hail, snow storm, avalanche etc...But as a Formula 1 Champion, one could easily argue that Schumacher may never be dethroned (perhaps Vettel). Maybe because of lack of competition JV, MH, and Eddie Irvine are awesome drivers but not close to the likes of an Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Prost, or Piquet. Or maybe because of superior equipment (remember Senna only had the best car in 88, 89, and 90). It's all a question of semantics at this point of what it means to be the greatest driver, is it skill? is it number of championships? is it the amount of add dollars someone is able to generate (modern F1 drivers)?

Having said all of that I stay place Ayrton #1 and Schumi #2.

Last edited by Bigiggs; 01-20-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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      01-20-2012, 12:15 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
I don't think anyone can so easily make such a conclusion.

Senna was at the peak his career, whereas Schumacher only had a couple seasons under his belt, when Senna perished. To say that one was more skilled than the other in their prime is to do injustice to both of them.

There were some stunning drives in both the wet and the dry from both drivers. Senna's stunning win at Interlagos with half his gearbox missing and Schumacher's domination of the Spanish GP in 1996 in a vastly inferior Ferrari are two prime examples.

Back on topic - if we are talking about the best COMPLETE drivers, it would have to be:

1. Schumacher
2. Prost
3. Alonso
4. Senna
5. Mansell

If we are talking about the quickest (sheer pace and overtaking ability):

1.) Senna
2.) Mansell
3.) Schumacher
4.) Gilles Villeneuve
5.) Hakkinen/Alonso

I can't really include the recent ensemble into the discussion (Hamilton, Vettel, etc.) as they are too early in their careers to properly judge them. But I would not be surprised to see both of them end up on the top 5 list at some point in the future.
your second list is by far better the order is almost perfect, i would like to change only one name: exit Hakkinen enter Keke Rosberg.
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      01-20-2012, 01:32 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az34 View Post
your second list is by far better the order is almost perfect, i would like to change only one name: exit Hakkinen enter Keke Rosberg.
I agree with this statement...I never had the opportunity to watch GV however I did watch that memorable lap where he and his Ferrari teammate (can't remember his name) battled endlessly.
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      01-20-2012, 02:20 PM   #41
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Part of the issue here is how to define "top 5" drivers. Is it based on outright pace, racecraft, overall tactics, teamwork/engineering know-how, or some nebulous combination of all of these things?

I think no matter how you slice it, Schumacher and Senna are in the top 5 (and probably 1 and 2).

Prost gets high marks for racecraft and tactics, but he was a lousy team player and probably not top 5 material for sheer pace.

Alonso gets good marks in all categories.

Raikkonen is fast, but a good team player and tactician? Nah.

Button, I think, is a bit underappreciated. Easy on his car (he can make tires last longer than anyone), solid team mate, pretty much error-free.

Hamilton can be quick on a single lap, but makes too many errors and is too self-absorbed.

Vettel will absolutely end up in the top 5.

Etc, etc,...
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      01-20-2012, 02:51 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigiggs View Post
I agree with this statement...I never had the opportunity to watch GV however I did watch that memorable lap where he and his Ferrari teammate (can't remember his name) battled endlessly.
it was René Arnoux, what a fight!
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      01-20-2012, 03:54 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigiggs View Post
I agree with this statement...I never had the opportunity to watch GV however I did watch that memorable lap where he and his Ferrari teammate (can't remember his name) battled endlessly.
Keke Rosberg only won 5 races in his career. Even Coulthard had more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbintx View Post
Button, I think, is a bit underappreciated. Easy on his car (he can make tires last longer than anyone), solid team mate, pretty much error-free.

Hamilton can be quick on a single lap, but makes too many errors and is too self-absorbed.
5 years ago, your comment about Hamilton applied to Button.
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      01-20-2012, 08:33 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigiggs View Post
First off Schumacher was spanking no one in '91. He was merely coming up the ranks. He has amassed the most points, statistics, championships, etc throughout his illustrious career in F1. Schumacher however is not the greatest driver (skill wise). He was and is a perfect tactician; he always wisely chose his teammates and always had an outstanding technical staff to attend all his needs. But he will never beat an Ayrton in the rain or beat a solid teammate, case in point Nico Rosberg.

If you don't believe me watch this video where he himself says so at 2:40:

I love everything about Senna and I do understand those that place Schumi over Ayrton as a better champion but surely not as a better driver.
I meant after 91; I'm well aware that he was a kid and he didn't race the full season. However, he was a podium regular (and winner) by '92 (even beat Senna in points).
I didn't say he was the greatest "skill wise". I said he was more complete than Senna and that Senna was probably more naturally talented.
I would not say for a minute that Schumacher's points come from ALWAYS having outstanding technical staff at his disposal, but fair enough (he once won a race stuck in 4th gear). He's never had a solid teammate because he is always so good that he is hired as #1 haha, and because he emotionally trounces them every time. But I do agree it hasn't been anything like Senna/Prost. Perhaps because Schumacher had less competition and surely 2 of the best drivers wouldn't drive for the best team? Benetton didn't have the funds, and Ferrari always has a clear #1.
That said, do you or anyone seriously believe that for the period between, say 99, and 2004, there were no significantly talented drivers in the world? I am always puzzled to read people saying that it wasn't that Schumacher wasn't super good, it was that the rest were mediocre. Think about what that entails for a second. But I'm off topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateBMW View Post
So, you've never heard Schumacher refered to as "Regenmeister" (Rainmaster)? Because this became a pretty prominent nickname for him. As for the video, all Schumacher says is that he was number 1. But really what else would he have said there, "No, I'm #1"? That would have gone over well...

Anyways, I don't necessarily think Schumacher was better than Ayrton. I think it's a bit futile to try.
What he said. Imagine the criticism he would've received for saying that HE was #1, for starters. What else would he say? In all sports when there is a close rivalry, you always say your opponent is the best. You can almost hear it in the way he says it too (this is subjective, though).
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