E90Post
 


GetBMWParts
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > 500whp/505lb-ft Vishnu Procede/PWM Meth/Turbo Dynamics Turbos



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-08-2012, 09:34 PM   #23
Mr_PharmD
Major
36

 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Fresno


Posts: 1,031
iTrader: (19)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q4P View Post
That's enough for me to know to not take you seriously.

The gentlemen who said that was also wrong (enzo ferrari).
Think what u want but tq is still more important.

Say u have 2 Civics where one is SC and other is Turbo...both making 500whp but who would win? The civic with Turbo due to tq.
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 09:35 PM   #24
marv85
Colonel
United_States
34

 
marv85's Avatar
 
Drives: '07 335i MT
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Portland


Posts: 2,558
iTrader: (5)

Very impressive! Car must be a beast
__________________
'10 E92 335i , COBB
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 09:37 PM   #25
Q4P
Colonel
United_States
43

 
Q4P's Avatar
 
Drives: Too Much
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: World


Posts: 2,296
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_PharmD View Post
Think what u want but tq is still more important.

Say u have 2 Civics where one is SC and other is Turbo...both making 500whp but who would win? The civic with Turbo due to tq.
lol... bcuz a supercharger doesn't make TQ...?

Please don't respond to me.
__________________
2jZ + RB26 + 4G63 + LS9 + N54 =
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 09:38 PM   #26
Mr_PharmD
Major
36

 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Fresno


Posts: 1,031
iTrader: (19)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q4P View Post
lol... bcuz a supercharger doesn't make TQ...?

Please don't respond to me.
Now ure being stupid and proving tq is more important.
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 09:42 PM   #27
onebadmofo
Banned
Russian Federation
119

 
Drives: 2007 E92 335i
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central NJ


Posts: 2,394
iTrader: (14)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_PharmD View Post
Now ure being stupid and proving tq is more important.
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 09:44 PM   #28
Q4P
Colonel
United_States
43

 
Q4P's Avatar
 
Drives: Too Much
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: World


Posts: 2,296
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_PharmD View Post
Now ure being stupid and proving tq is more important.
I guess I am open to having some fun... sorry for thread jacking Shiv but it looks like we can have fun with this guy.

please do explain why u think this is so sir...
__________________
2jZ + RB26 + 4G63 + LS9 + N54 =
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 09:48 PM   #29
335xi Kevo
Lieutenant
17

 
335xi Kevo's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335xi
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CT


Posts: 502
iTrader: (3)

__________________
08' 335xi 6MT
Space Metallic Grey
Premium, Nav, Cold weather, Sport
Procede 2.5, DCI, Forge DV, PWM, Scoops, KW V1, ETS 5" FMIC, VRSF Downpipes, M3 Skirts
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 09:58 PM   #30
Mr_PharmD
Major
36

 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Fresno


Posts: 1,031
iTrader: (19)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q4P View Post
I guess I am open to having some fun... sorry for thread jacking Shiv but it looks like we can have fun with this guy.

please do explain why u think this is so sir...
Look I'm just stating my opinion why I believe this is true regarding the importance of tq when whp is the same. I really dont want to waste the OP time and others so if u want to discuss more, u are welcome to voice ure our thoughts over pm.
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:02 PM   #31
GmoBmw
Captain
18

 
GmoBmw's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 335i
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: California


Posts: 645
iTrader: (8)

Man that is awesome ^_^
__________________
2007 BMW 335I- JB4 G5,DCI,VRSF DPs,NT555r Drag Radials Daily Driver
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:04 PM   #32
woodga16
First Lieutenant
21

 
Drives: BMW 335i
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: US


Posts: 381
iTrader: (0)

For almost all applications tq is more important, but you need both equally.
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:08 PM   #33
JamesM3M5
Some dude
United_States
28

 
Drives: E28 M5, E92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Northern VA


Posts: 1,757
iTrader: (0)

I think you guys are arguing semantics. Acceleration is proportional to torque at the wheels, and it can be calculated by area under the torque curve. HP is a calculation from torque and speed.

The car with the greater area under the torque curve will win. Generic comparisons of "500HP versus 500lb-ft" are meaningless without comparing RPM - where the engine makes the torque, and how flat the torque curve is.

So for the generalized 500HP with turbo or supercharger, we have to assume a few things: turbo makes full boost long before rev limit, where supercharger typically makes full boost at rev limit (and significantly less boost below the rev limit if it's a centrifugal blower). The extra mid-range boost from the load-based turbo increases torque output, and should have the larger area under the curve.

At the BMW CCA Oktoberfest club race at Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham, AL, a 135i in H-Prepared would literally stomp all over higher HP mod-class cars exiting the turns due to its massive torque over the naturally aspirated competition. Once the NA cars were in the higher revs where they finally made some torque, they were able to stay the same speed as the 135. If the drag race were to continue down a runway (they were limited to the short straights at Barber), the higher HP cars would start to reel in the 135 due to drag. Higher HP is desired once aerodynamic drag comes into play.
__________________
RRT Racing
E92 335i/6MT Dinan Stage 3: intercooler, oil cooler, intake, flash, exhaust, LW dual-mass flywheel.
Vishnu PWM methanol custom trunk mount, Diffsonline 3-clutch Salisbury custom diff, Ohlins Road and Track coilovers, Vorshlag camber plates, much more...
E28 M5 w/ buncha stuff, R171 SLK350
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:08 PM   #34
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
69

 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh


Posts: 1,901
iTrader: (0)

Surprised no one has brought up the question of fueling issues. So is it that now the n54 can handle these numbers without hitting the fueling limits? I thought it was right around 500whp where we were seeing issues?
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:20 PM   #35
Mr_PharmD
Major
36

 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Fresno


Posts: 1,031
iTrader: (19)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 View Post
...The car with the greater area under the torque curve will win...
exactly...so if u can keep the tq high and leveled until redline u will win the race.
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:21 PM   #36
Q4P
Colonel
United_States
43

 
Q4P's Avatar
 
Drives: Too Much
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: World


Posts: 2,296
iTrader: (0)

In most cases HP is what gives a vehicle top end power... when it comes to drag racing, that is what gives most vehicles advantage. Yes, there are high tq cars that you see racing but those vehicles always have high HP as well... If TQ was what mattered then diesel vehicles would win races left and right although they don't because they can't rev high and make enough top end power (HP). If you compare two similar cars, one that has 550 WHP and 450 WTQ and another with one that has 500 WHP and 550 WTQ or so, my money is on the higher hp cars... there are a lot more factors that come into play but when it comes to racing that is usually the case, in fact most large turbo cars give up a little bit of TQ for an increase in top end HP. As someone already mentioned that moves the curve to the right as well in the higher RPM's, where HP will be much more pronounced than TQ. TQ is very important but in the end it's about having a proper curve with HP at the top.
__________________
2jZ + RB26 + 4G63 + LS9 + N54 =
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:24 PM   #37
JamesM3M5
Some dude
United_States
28

 
Drives: E28 M5, E92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Northern VA


Posts: 1,757
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
Surprised no one has brought up the question of fueling issues. So is it that now the n54 can handle these numbers without hitting the fueling limits? I thought it was right around 500whp where we were seeing issues?
Where did this assumed "500HP limit" come from? It's either a myth or the meth is enough to push it over the supposed limit.

The stock injectors were meant to flow enough fuel while on 5bar (low pressure if the HPFP fails), so you can imagine what happens when the pressure is increased by a factor of 20 to 40, something well over 500HP at 200bar. The only major bottleneck anyone has hypothesized is that the LPFP cannot flow enough to maintain that power level, but that has yet to be directly confirmed.
__________________
RRT Racing
E92 335i/6MT Dinan Stage 3: intercooler, oil cooler, intake, flash, exhaust, LW dual-mass flywheel.
Vishnu PWM methanol custom trunk mount, Diffsonline 3-clutch Salisbury custom diff, Ohlins Road and Track coilovers, Vorshlag camber plates, much more...
E28 M5 w/ buncha stuff, R171 SLK350
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:27 PM   #38
turb0mike
116

 
turb0mike's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335i Racecar
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: San Diego, CA


Posts: 2,707
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 BMW 335i  [4.45]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q4P View Post
excellent results... that should be a monster, is there any way to fine tune or retune to lose 100 or so lb-ft of TQ? I think 500 HP and 400 LB-FT of TQ would be perfect... I only say this due to traction issues.

Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_PharmD View Post
Only way is to slowly introduce the boost at a certain rpm and then make it come quicker at later rpm (like a boost controller) but then ull get lag and make less whp n tq by the time u hit red line. Remember HP doesnt win races.. tq wins races. Its all about the driver and how much of a lead foot he has to deal with traction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q4P View Post
That's enough for me to know to not take you seriously.

The gentlemen who said that was also wrong (enzo ferrari).
Quote:
Originally Posted by myotherbaby View Post
I think horsepower has still a lot to do with winning races. If you are talking about light to light or 1/4 mile then yes but if you are talking about 80-150+, horsepower is where it's at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_PharmD View Post
Think what u want but tq is still more important.

Say u have 2 Civics where one is SC and other is Turbo...both making 500whp but who would win? The civic with Turbo due to tq.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q4P View Post
lol... bcuz a supercharger doesn't make TQ...?

Please don't respond to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_PharmD View Post
Now ure being stupid and proving tq is more important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 View Post
I think you guys are arguing semantics. Acceleration is proportional to torque at the wheels, and it can be calculated by area under the torque curve. HP is a calculation from torque and speed.

The car with the greater area under the torque curve will win. Generic comparisons of "500HP versus 500lb-ft" are meaningless without comparing RPM - where the engine makes the torque, and how flat the torque curve is.

So for the generalized 500HP with turbo or supercharger, we have to assume a few things: turbo makes full boost long before rev limit, where supercharger typically makes full boost at rev limit (and significantly less boost below the rev limit if it's a centrifugal blower). The extra mid-range boost from the load-based turbo increases torque output, and should have the larger area under the curve.

At the BMW CCA Oktoberfest club race at Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham, AL, a 135i in H-Prepared would literally stomp all over higher HP mod-class cars exiting the turns due to its massive torque over the naturally aspirated competition. Once the NA cars were in the higher revs where they finally made some torque, they were able to stay the same speed as the 135. If the drag race were to continue down a runway (they were limited to the short straights at Barber), the higher HP cars would start to reel in the 135 due to drag. Higher HP is desired once aerodynamic drag comes into play.
WIN

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_PharmD View Post
exactly...so if u can keep the tq high and leveled until redline u will win the race.


Funny stuff... You guys aren't really talking about the tradeoff. There aren't many, if at all, engines with high redlines and tons of torque. For straight line racing a turbo is obviously better but going around a track N/A (or turbos that act NA are better) because you never dip below 4k rpm anyways.

I will admit doing all of SOW in 3rd and 4th gear was pretty fun, haha. As the dude said above, it all depends on the power curve.

BTW I would rather have some KW Comp 3 ways than 700whp, haha.
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:28 PM   #39
turb0mike
116

 
turb0mike's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335i Racecar
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: San Diego, CA


Posts: 2,707
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 BMW 335i  [4.45]
Beside the point, great stuff shiv!!!
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:32 PM   #40
Mr_PharmD
Major
36

 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Fresno


Posts: 1,031
iTrader: (19)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 View Post
Where did this assumed "500HP limit" come from? It's either a myth or the meth is enough to push it over the supposed limit.

The stock injectors were meant to flow enough fuel while on 5bar (low pressure if the HPFP fails), so you can imagine what happens when the pressure is increased by a factor of 20 to 40, something well over 500HP at 200bar. The only major bottleneck anyone has hypothesized is that the LPFP cannot flow enough to maintain that power level, but that has yet to be directly confirmed.
I actually asked a similar question in post#19.

500whp seems to be the cap until the AFR starts to look too lean for comfort. Dz recently found out that the Cobb was able to alter the DME to fix this issue (if any).

Here's a dyno of the RB where afr goes lean up top and i'm sure boost was taper down at the end.

Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:35 PM   #41
JamesM3M5
Some dude
United_States
28

 
Drives: E28 M5, E92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Northern VA


Posts: 1,757
iTrader: (0)

Interesting. What was the tune? Flash, JB, Procede? Just curious, since the piggybacks are limited by fuel trims, where a flash should be relatively unfettered. I think Dzenno mentioned that his Cobb tune has tweaks to remove such limitations.

I'm sure Shiv is also working on something to smash that 500HP glass ceiling, otherwise a big single turbo kit is pointless.
__________________
RRT Racing
E92 335i/6MT Dinan Stage 3: intercooler, oil cooler, intake, flash, exhaust, LW dual-mass flywheel.
Vishnu PWM methanol custom trunk mount, Diffsonline 3-clutch Salisbury custom diff, Ohlins Road and Track coilovers, Vorshlag camber plates, much more...
E28 M5 w/ buncha stuff, R171 SLK350
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:39 PM   #42
Mr_PharmD
Major
36

 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Fresno


Posts: 1,031
iTrader: (19)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 View Post
Interesting. What was the tune? Flash, JB, Procede? Just curious, since the piggybacks are limited by fuel trims, where a flash should be relatively unfettered. I think Dzenno mentioned that his Cobb tune has tweaks to remove such limitations.

I'm sure Shiv is also working on something to smash that 500HP glass ceiling, otherwise a big single turbo kit is pointless.
well, Dz used both the jb4 and cobb so I'm assuming the procede and cobb should be able to mate together also.

The RB dyno was from shiv website with only the procede. That is why I asked the OP if he did anything to the DME with the procede to get the AFR so solid and the boost steady at 18-19psi to redline.
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:47 PM   #43
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
United_States
879

 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA


Posts: 17,616
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_PharmD View Post
I actually asked a similar question in post#19.

500whp seems to be the cap until the AFR starts to look too lean for comfort. Dz recently found out that the Cobb was able to alter the DME to fix this issue (if any).

Here's a dyno of the RB where afr goes lean up top and i'm sure boost was taper down at the end.

That dyno was Dzenno's car which, as he recently discovered, had miscoded injectors that caused misfire. Back then, we weren't aware of this and attempted to avoid misfire by tapering boost and enleaning AFR targets slightly.

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 02-09-2012 at 01:27 AM.
Appreciate 0
      02-08-2012, 10:56 PM   #44
dzenno
Banned
Canada
212

 
Drives:
Join Date: Feb 2006


Posts: 5,883
iTrader: (1)

Hey, great numbers there, that's solid AFR and power, good job...now I have to talk to my Canuck brother and get him to switch tunes hehe juuuuust kidding

Would be nice to have seen a baseline graph though with its stock AFR trace

P.S. In terms of that RB dyno on my car that was procede v2 in March last year...i'm now running COBB, JB4 is used for gauges/shift lights mostly at the moment...don't want to take this thread off topic as anything 500+ with nice AFR like shown in OP does deserve respect
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:43 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST