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      08-22-2016, 12:23 PM   #1
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Tracking with heater on.

Do you track with heater on?
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      08-22-2016, 12:26 PM   #2
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Why would you do that m8?
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      08-22-2016, 12:55 PM   #3
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I do. Aim the vents out the window, essentially you're making your radiator larger.
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      08-22-2016, 05:39 PM   #4
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Do you track with heater on?
Never
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      08-22-2016, 09:01 PM   #5
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Always.
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      08-22-2016, 09:28 PM   #6
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Never. But C&R radiator and Setrab oil cooler probably makes it unnecessary.
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      08-23-2016, 12:13 AM   #7
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Never because coolant temperature is never an issue just oil temperature.
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      08-23-2016, 01:05 PM   #8
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Yes, but coolant is the primarily source of cooling, not oil, thus BMW added extra coolant radiator and not an oil radiator on their PPK in addition to faster fan.
I have tuned 335i that I track and oil went from 135* to 130* on 30* ambient temperature after installing extra coolant radiator.
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      08-23-2016, 06:17 PM   #9
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@Feuer coolant can only cool as much as its flow rate allows it to. Only so much heat can be wicked from the block as the coolant passes through.

If coolant temps are in check, then dumping heat through the heater core (essentially a second radiator) isn't going to help much since the stock front radiator qwas already sufficiently cooling the water...

Last edited by bNks334; 08-25-2016 at 09:54 AM.
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      08-23-2016, 09:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
@Feuer coolant can only cool as much as its flow rate allows it to. Only so much heat can be winked from the block as the coolant passes through.

If coolant temps are in check, then dumping heat through the heater core (essentially a second radiator) isn't going to help much since the stock front radiator qwas already sufficiently cooling the water...
Since q-dot is proportional to mass flow at a given delta-T, delta-T is going to go up with q-dot if mass flow remains unchanged. So tuning or modifying the engine for more power is going to require a higher delta-T from radiator inlet to outlet to maintain balance. And that means more heat transfer area, among other parameters. Pretty sure that's what he meant when he said his 335i is tuned.
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      08-24-2016, 10:48 AM   #11
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Honestly I don't quite understand the obsession of this community with oil coolers, oversized oil coolers especially. I have seen some aftermarket kits for n54 engine with oil coolers bigger than what you have on actual race car. If this was needed BMW would have done it first but instead they opted for additional coolant radiator for larger heat transfer area. Also, oil needs operation temperature from 100* to 115* thus the need for oil thermostat that regulates the flow, from closed to partially open to fully open. On the track when engines runs for 20-30 min then sits for 45-60 waiting on other groups, then runs again, an oversized oil coolers with modified oil thermostats might introduce too much water vapor in the oil system from condensation, and oil containing moisture doesn’t flow or lubricate properly. Should I mention oil pressure drops due to oversized oil coolers? I'm yet to come across some numbers on that.
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      08-24-2016, 11:11 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feuer View Post
Honestly I don't quite understand the obsession of this community with oil coolers, oversized oil coolers especially. I have seen some aftermarket kits for n54 engine with oil coolers bigger than what you have on actual race car. If this was needed BMW would have done it first but instead they opted for additional coolant radiator for larger heat transfer area. Also, oil needs operation temperature from 100* to 115* thus the need for oil thermostat that regulates the flow, from closed to partially open to fully open. On the track when engines runs for 20-30 min then sits for 45-60 waiting on other groups, then runs again, an oversized oil coolers with modified oil thermostats might introduce too much water vapor in the oil system from condensation, and oil containing moisture doesn’t flow or lubricate properly. Should I mention oil pressure drops due to oversized oil coolers? I'm yet to come across some numbers on that.
Agreed. That's why I used a Performance Racing bypass thermostat on the oil cooler at 215F along with an Accusump and a baffled oil pan. Not exactly what you'd find on the street...
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      08-24-2016, 11:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
Agreed. That's why I used a Performance Racing bypass thermostat on the oil cooler at 215F along with an Accusump and a baffled oil pan. Not exactly what you'd find on the street...
got any info on your accusump? I've been considering one to protect against loss of pressure in high speed turns.
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      08-24-2016, 12:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwarren View Post
got any info on your accusump? I've been considering one to protect against loss of pressure in high speed turns.
It's the 2qt model with electronic pressure control valve assembly tee'd into the high pressure side of the oil cooler install using BMRS fittings and lines. Installed using their billet brackets and bolted to the floor with carpet and backing cut out for clearance. Also replaced the pressure gauge with the liquid filled one given the potential for vibration.

Pictures here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=214
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      08-25-2016, 10:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feuer View Post
Yes, but coolant is the primarily source of cooling, not oil, thus BMW added extra coolant radiator and not an oil radiator on their PPK in addition to faster fan.
I have tuned 335i that I track and oil went from 135* to 130* on 30* ambient temperature after installing extra coolant radiator.
Sorry, but I can't agree with what you guys are saying. You should probably read this: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...LQG8vUnm_oMdMA

Documentation supports that BMW has seperated the oil and coolant passages on this engine. The temperatures of the two fluids are not as directly related as on other engines.

Previously, n54 platforms cooled oil via an oil to water heat exchanger. Therefore, coolant temperatures did used to play a larger role in lowering oil temps.

When BMW upped the power output with the ppk they also had to improve the water cooling as well via an additional radiator and a larger fan as well to help keep temps down in traffic.

However, BMW has since reseperated the two cooling functions. Oil cooling is now achieved via an oil to air radiator. Oil is not tied to the water via a heat exchanger anymore.

Further, oil and coolant do not cool the same parts of the engine. When you up the power levels, yes, you generate more heat. This heat is almost directly going to cause oil temps to rise. Through conduction, heat from the oil cooled portions of the engine can indeed cause an increase in coolant temps. However, data does not support that the radiator is a bottleneck in engine cooling. The data, and engine design, support that you need better oil cooling which is achieved via the oil cooler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
Since q-dot is proportional to mass flow at a given delta-T, delta-T is going to go up with q-dot if mass flow remains unchanged. So tuning or modifying the engine for more power is going to require a higher delta-T from radiator inlet to outlet to maintain balance. And that means more heat transfer area, among other parameters. Pretty sure that's what he meant when he said his 335i is tuned.
This is incorrect. In reference to qdot, the goal is to achieve a balance between how much heat can be absorbed from the block and how much can be shed. Those are two separate q-dot calcs. You have one for the radiator and one for the cooling system.

As you've stated, tuning for more power increases the amount of heat the engine is producing. Improving the delta of inlet and outlet temps of the radiator will not help improve how much heat can be removed from the engine block via the cooling system. If you were indeed able to shed more heat from high oil temps into the water, then yes, you'd want to also increase the radiator capacity to handle it. To achieve balance with just a larger radiator, you would need to run the electionic water pump faster or switch to distilled water which transfers heat better than coolant. Again, data does not support that the stock coolant system is an issue in the first place (for all but the most hardcore 30min+ track sessions). Yes, there is a place for improved water cooling, but only after you've tackled the engine oil temps which will throw you into limp mode long before the coolant ever gets "too hot."

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Originally Posted by justpete View Post
Agreed. That's why I used a Performance Racing bypass thermostat on the oil cooler at 215F
You are literally saying the opposite as feuer here. I agree with feuer when he says oil temps must be above 100c at a minimum (212f). This is the boiling point of water. The boiling point is probably even higher due to the pressure the oil is subjected to. If you run an oil bypass valve, or a lower thermostat, you risk operating the oil too cold. Your oil will never hit that minimum 100c needed to boil water out of the oil. This is more gear toward dual purpose cars since we all know oil will quickly rise over 100c on track even with a bypass valve.

Stock thermostat is best. 230f to 260f is an ideal operating range for synthetic oil and engine performance.

Bypassing the thermostat, or lowering it's opening point, does nothing but prolong the innevitable failure of the oil cooler to shed the building heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
along with an Accusump and a baffled oil pan. Not exactly what you'd find on the street...
Not sure if n54 is the same, but as the link above details, the n55 controls oil pressure via the dme. The issue with the n54 losing oil pressure was due to a poor oil pickup design. An accusump alone will only exasperate the issue. Once the accusump dumps itself you'll only be further starving the engine of oil as the accusump will never get a chance to refill and becomes one more piece of extra demand on oil pressure. You must adress the oil pickup issue first, as you did. This is a caution to those thinking an accusump alone will cure pressure drops on the n54.

The n55 redesigned the entire oil pickup and delivery system. The pan has a sort of built in bevel and the pump has a deeper pickup area. I haven't seen any posts about oil pressure drops on the n55. The oil delivery imrovements are why I just personally picked up an n55 to track after selling my n52.

It's been well documented that oil pressure drop is a non issue when adding larger oil coolers on this platform. The dme compensates and pressure is sufficient. That is a moot point when trying to argue against oil coolers. I'd be more worried about slowing down coolant flow in the cooling system with a larger radiator since the stock underperforming, failure prone, electronic water pump is the real bottleneck when coolant temps become an issue.

Last edited by bNks334; 08-25-2016 at 11:27 AM.
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      08-25-2016, 11:20 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
This is incorrect. In reference to qdot, the goal is to achieve a balance between how much heat can be absorbed from the block and how much can be shed. Those are two separate q-dot calcs. You have one for the radiator and one for the cooling system.
The heat flux into the coolant must be shed via the radiator or temps will climb, that's what I meant by balance. And I'm not including oil cooling at all, just engine cooling and disregarding other thermal rejection pathways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
As you've stated, tuning for more power increases the amount of heat the engine is producing. Improving the delta of inlet and outlet temps of the radiator will not help improve how much heat can be removed from the engine block via the cooling system. If you were indeed able to shed more heat from high oil temps into the water, then yes, you'd want to also increase the radiator capacity to handle it. To achieve balance with just a larger radiator, you would need to run the electionic water pump faster or switch to distilled water which transfers heat better than coolant. Again, data does not support that the stock coolant system is an issue in the first place (for all but the most hardcore 30min+ track sessions). Yes, there is a place for improved water cooling, but only after you've tackled the engine oil temps which will throw you into limp mode long before the coolant ever gets "too hot."
A better radiator will drop the coolant temp farther and allow the thermostat to maintain temp otherwise increased thermal rejection from the block to the coolant would cause the temp to rise beyond normal. Anyone who's had a compromised radiator knows opening the heater to coolant flow will drop the temps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
You are literally saying the opposite as feuer here. I agree with feuer when he says oil temps must be above 100c at a minimum (212f). This is the boiling point of water. The boiling point is probably even higher due to the pressure the oil is subjected to. If you run an oil bypass valve, or a lower thermostat, you risk operating the oil too cold. Your oil will never hit that minimum 100c needed to boil water out of the oil. This is more gear toward dual purpose cars since we all know oil will quickly rise over 100c on track even with a bypass valve.
A bypass thermostat is one that recircs the oil back to the engine and gradually with increasing temp allows an increasing amount of the flow to pass through the downstream oil cooler. It doesn't bypass anything but the oil cooler, iow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Stock thermostat is best. 230f to 260f is an ideal operating range for synthetic oil and engine performance.
Pretty sure no one said otherwise.
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      08-25-2016, 12:57 PM   #17
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It occurs to me there might be some confusion over this discussion. From my perspective the cooling system is not an issue until it reaches its cooling limits. So that would mean mass flow can't increase and the thermostat is open all the time with the engine temp exceeding design limits in steady state operation. The only way to resolve the issue is to lower the coolant inlet temp so the fixed temp rise of the engine results in an operating temp lower than before and hopefully within limits. Not possible to do this without increasing the heat exchanger's efficiency and that means more area for convective transfer.
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      08-25-2016, 01:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Previously, n54 platforms cooled oil via an oil to water heat exchanger. Therefore, coolant temperatures did used to play a larger role in lowering oil temps.
Engine oil or AT oil? Engine oil never. AT oil always.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
When BMW upped the power output with the ppk they also had to improve the water cooling as well via an additional radiator and a larger fan as well to help keep temps down in traffic.
What difference would make additional coolant radiator in traffic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
However, BMW has since reseperated the two cooling functions. Oil cooling is now achieved via an oil to air radiator. Oil is not tied to the water via a heat exchanger anymore.
The two cooling functions are not separated on all n54/55 as on some coolant is still the solely cooling remedy. Engine oil was never tied with heat exchanger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Further, oil and coolant do not cool the same parts of the engine. When you up the power levels, yes, you generate more heat. This heat is almost directly going to cause oil temps to rise. Through conduction, heat from the oil cooled portions of the engine can indeed cause an increase in coolant temps. However, data does not support that the radiator is a bottleneck in engine cooling. The data, and engine design, support that you need better oil cooling which is achieved via the oil cooler.
Originally BMW had neither oil cooler nor additional coolant radiator. 1st the added on oil radiator 2nd when that was not enough they added additional coolant radiator and stronger fan for the existing radiator and not one more oil cooler. Do you doubt the engineers? I don't
Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Again, data does not support that the stock coolant system is an issue in the first place (for all but the most hardcore 30min+ track sessions). Yes, there is a place for improved water cooling, but only after you've tackled the engine oil temps which will throw you into limp mode long before the coolant ever gets "too hot."
Only on AT as the coolant system is overwhelmed by cooling the engine oil and AT oil. People found rescue in upgraded oil coolers only because for a longest time upgraded coolant radiator for AT n54 did not exsisted, only for the MT n54. Now there are better coolant radiators for AT n54 and you know what? People that have upgraded those and left everything else as is do not experience issues. Why? Because no matter who you look at it coolant will remain the primarily cooling provider and everything else will be just a support.
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      08-25-2016, 02:31 PM   #19
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The heat flux into the coolant must be shed via the radiator or temps will climb, that's what I meant by balance. And I'm not including oil cooling at all, just engine cooling and disregarding other thermal rejection pathways.
Yes, I get what you're saying. Makes perfect sense. What I was pointing out was that, on our cars, there is very minimal "heat flux" into the coolant (unless you're an AT which comes with an oil to water heat exchanger). What little heat the coolant does pick up from the massively increased oil temps (290f+) is for the most part handled by the stock radiator.

We cant measure inlet coolant temps at the radiator, but we can measure radiator outlet coolant temps at the water pump. All data indicates coolant temps post radiator don't really increase that much beyond what you see on the street. Therefore, no limp modes due to coolant temps on track like oil. Hence why everyone has an obsession with increasing OIL cooling not coolant.

"Cooling System

The cooling system of the N55 is enhanced with additional oil cooling.

Two different types of oil cooling systems are used depending on the model and application. In the “hot climate” version, heat transfer from the engine oil to the engine coolant is avoided by separating the oil cooler from the engine coolant circuit. The other version uses an auxiliary radiator in combination with an oil to coolant heat exchanger bolted to the oil filter housing. The auxiliary radiator enhances cooling efficiency by adding surface area to the cooling system."

Since the 135i manual didn't come with the heat exchanger, that last part about increasing cooling capacity is irrelevant. Automatic cars might benefit from a radiator upgrade though since more heat is indeed being exchange into the coolant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
Anyone who's had a compromised radiator knows opening the heater to coolant flow will drop the temps.
Yes, absolutely! Again, my point was that it's not really necessary since most people's coolant never overheats past normal. This further supports why everyone takes a priority of upgrading oil cooler capacity over the radiator.

As you point out yourself, you can simply dump heat through the heater core if your coolant temps start climbing too high. You effectively already have a second radiator in the car

I do agree a dedicated track car could benefit from increased cooling capacity, but not before tackling the oil temperature issue. In opposite effect of what your saying, running a larger oil cooler should also help keep coolant temps down!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by justpete View Post
A bypass thermostat is one that recircs the oil back to the engine and gradually with increasing temp allows an increasing amount of the flow to pass through the downstream oil cooler. It doesn't bypass anything but the oil cooler, iow.
I'm guessing you're referring to the very expensive improved racing oil thermostat. It is definetly a nice thermostat that operates like stock but at a lower temp. I was referring to people deleting the stock thermostat without adding back something like the improved racing thermostat.

Even 215f isn't that much lower than the stock 230f. Hardly worth $180 imo since it basically does nothing. I say this because I don't think ANYONE has a big enough oil cooler in place to keep oil temps below 230f on track... besides, the cars dme is literally designed to operate between 230 and 260. Tons of dme parameters are actively seeking to operate within that range. Again, all opening the thermostat at 215f does it delay the inevitable...
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      08-25-2016, 04:26 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by justpete View Post
It occurs to me there might be some confusion over this discussion. From my perspective the cooling system is not an issue until it reaches its cooling limits. So that would mean mass flow can't increase and the thermostat is open all the time with the engine temp exceeding design limits in steady state operation. The only way to resolve the issue is to lower the coolant inlet temp so the fixed temp rise of the engine results in an operating temp lower than before and hopefully within limits. Not possible to do this without increasing the heat exchanger's efficiency and that means more area for convective transfer.
yeah, I agree with you. I thought you were being specific to our cars when you were just speaking in generalities about how to improve cooling.

btw, I'm pretty sure I've seen your car at VTR a few times. You definitely did a nice job with the build. Should run fantastic on track.
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      08-25-2016, 05:15 PM   #21
justpete
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Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
Yes, I get what you're saying. Makes perfect sense. What I was pointing out was that, on our cars, there is very minimal "heat flux" into the coolant (unless you're an AT which comes with an oil to water heat exchanger). What little heat the coolant does pick up from the massively increased oil temps (290f+) is for the most part handled by the stock radiator.

<snip>

I do agree a dedicated track car could benefit from increased cooling capacity, but not before tackling the oil temperature issue. In opposite effect of what your saying, running a larger oil cooler should also help keep coolant temps down!!!
Yes, my point was solely in relation to highly modified track cars, irrelevant for street cars. Mine does double duty as my daily and a track car so it has certain limitations.

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Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
I'm guessing you're referring to the very expensive improved racing oil thermostat. It is definetly a nice thermostat that operates like stock but at a lower temp. I was referring to people deleting the stock thermostat without adding back something like the improved racing thermostat.

Even 215f isn't that much lower than the stock 230f. Hardly worth $180 imo since it basically does nothing. I say this because I don't think ANYONE has a big enough oil cooler in place to keep oil temps below 230f on track... besides, the cars dme is literally designed to operate between 230 and 260. Tons of dme parameters are actively seeking to operate within that range. Again, all opening the thermostat at 215f does it delay the inevitable...
It is indeed the Improved Racing thermostat but the cost is negligible in the context of the build. It's there to allow the car to be driven in the winter without overcooling the oil since the added heat exchanger area is not needed.

On the track the thermostat will open up just above the boiling point of water and essentially increase the ability to cool the oil under hard thirty minute track sessions but I have no illusions that it will manage the temperature at that setting, it can't, so I fully expect higher oil temps than 215F but more easily managed by the DME than they would be without the cooler in 100+F weather. Again, totally irrelevant for a street car.
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      08-25-2016, 05:18 PM   #22
justpete
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Originally Posted by bNks334 View Post
btw, I'm pretty sure I've seen your car at VTR a few times. You definitely did a nice job with the build. Should run fantastic on track.
Couldn't be my car, it's never left North Texas.
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