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      06-11-2012, 05:01 PM   #1
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Tracked a 335i with 19psi on stock turbos, no limp!

I did 3 separate sessions at Big Willow on Saturday. It was cooler than normal but still reached the low-mid 80's. Willow is a fast track with lots of sustained WOT acceleration.

I have read the "limp party" thread and figured that a limp would be inevitable. I was running the Procede 11-25 aggressive maps with a custom boost profile to target 18psi, although regularly hits 19+psi on logs. Dyno'd SAE 412/446. I was expecting to limp, and then come in, cool down and reduce boost to ~ 13psi.

Well, didn't happen. Oil temps were rock solid @ 255. I am running water/meth cooling (51/49 water/meth ratio). Perhaps the meth kept oil temps down.
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      06-11-2012, 05:17 PM   #2
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If you can manage to go limp at Big Willow, congratulations. You would have to have been pushing the motherf**k out of the 335i to do that. WSIR is by far the LEAST demanding of all the tracks I've ever driven on in terms of equipment (except tires). Almost ALL the sustained WOT is done at very high speed therefore plenty of opportunity for airflow and cooling. Same reason why limp mode virtually NEVER happens on the oval portion of Auto Club Speedway, but almost always in the infield straights (where you're going from the lower end of 2nd gear out of "turn 9").

Good luck replicating that at any other West Coast track, even Streets of Willow.
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      06-11-2012, 05:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
If you can manage to go limp at Big Willow, congratulations. You would have to have been pushing the motherf**k out of the 335i to do that. WSIR is by far the LEAST demanding of all the tracks I've ever driven on in terms of equipment (except tires). Almost ALL the sustained WOT is done at very high speed therefore plenty of opportunity for airflow and cooling. Same reason why limp mode virtually NEVER happens on the oval portion of Auto Club Speedway, but almost always in the infield straights (where you're going from the lower end of 2nd gear out of "turn 9").

Good luck replicating that at any other West Coast track, even Streets of Willow.
A couple guys managed to limp, including an NA V10 M6.
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      06-11-2012, 05:52 PM   #4
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The NA V10 M6 were just as troublesome when it comes to "limp mode" as the 335i. You just don't hear about it as much because they're not as common and also not tracked as often. But during the launch event when BMW first brought the M6 out, quite a few did not make it past 3 laps before they went limp at Texas Motor Speedway either.

I'm just saying. Just because you didn't go limp at WSIR, doesn't mean it's time to go around s**king each other's unit just yet*. The real test will come at Buttonwillow and California Speedway in Southern California, or Chuckwalla if you're willing to drive out to the absolute middle of nowhere. Sears, Laguna, and Thunderhill will present far more formidable challenge and test to the car compared to WSIR. Compared to most tracks in the area, WSIR is a Sunday morning drive. Seriously.

*Before anyone get all upset and offended by that, it's a reference to the movie "Pulp Fiction."
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      06-11-2012, 06:09 PM   #5
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Congratulations. The meth and a good tune help a ton. Shiv concentrates on reducing intake temps along with all of the other great things a tune does.

You would probably still need to reduce boost at other tracks like Hack says. If you don't it's usually because the driver could be driving better/harder.

There is always the possibility that you just have the magic touch.

Thunderhill in August would be a good test.
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      06-11-2012, 06:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
The NA V10 M6 were just as troublesome when it comes to "limp mode" as the 335i. You just don't hear about it as much because they're not as common and also not tracked as often. But during the launch event when BMW first brought the M6 out, quite a few did not make it past 3 laps before they went limp at Texas Motor Speedway either.

I'm just saying. Just because you didn't go limp at WSIR, doesn't mean it's time to go around s**king each other's unit just yet*. The real test will come at Buttonwillow and California Speedway in Southern California, or Chuckwalla if you're willing to drive out to the absolute middle of nowhere. Sears, Laguna, and Thunderhill will present far more formidable challenge and test to the car compared to WSIR. Compared to most tracks in the area, WSIR is a Sunday morning drive. Seriously.

*Before anyone get all upset and offended by that, it's a reference to the movie "Pulp Fiction."
lol love the Pulp Fiction reference.

This was my last track event for the 335 so I wanted to share that little nugget before I bailed from the forum. Ordered an M3 and will be attending more track events.

WSIR might be sunday morning drive compared to the other tracks, but tell that to the half-dozen people who went off track on Saturday including a car right in front of me!
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      06-11-2012, 06:27 PM   #7
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May I ask what kind of lap times you were doing on Saturday at WSIR?
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      06-11-2012, 06:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
The NA V10 M6 were just as troublesome when it comes to "limp mode" as the 335i. You just don't hear about it as much because they're not as common and also not tracked as often. But during the launch event when BMW first brought the M6 out, quite a few did not make it past 3 laps before they went limp at Texas Motor Speedway either.

I'm just saying. Just because you didn't go limp at WSIR, doesn't mean it's time to go around s**king each other's unit just yet*. The real test will come at Buttonwillow and California Speedway in Southern California, or Chuckwalla if you're willing to drive out to the absolute middle of nowhere. Sears, Laguna, and Thunderhill will present far more formidable challenge and test to the car compared to WSIR. Compared to most tracks in the area, WSIR is a Sunday morning drive. Seriously.

*Before anyone get all upset and offended by that, it's a reference to the movie "Pulp Fiction."


I have read the entire Track limp mode party thread and have taken just about all the advice on that thread. I have a 2007 335i AT with Procede rev 2.5, and ER FMIC, ER Dual Comp OC, AR catless DP, 30/70 coolant/H2O + 2 WW, and removed foglights. I am curious as to your thoughts about Homestead in Miami, FL in mid July. Headed there with Chin Motorsports soon. I want to get as much out of the day as possible so my current plan is to have DTC off while trying to keep my shifts in Manual mode at around 5500-5700 rpm for upshift. I realize you will probably say dont take an AT to the track but the fact remains that I have been inspired to take up this new found hobby and wish to make the best of it with the car I have. In the near future I may buy a MT but for now I want to have fun with what I have. Would you say Homestead is a good test for limp mode in mid July? Would you recommend getting meth kit prior to event? Do you subscribe to the same line of reasoning that Shiv says the Meth kit will lower temps by 30 deg F?

I am not asking you to bash or praise anything at all. I have read many of your posts and they seem to the point and appear to be based on facts and experience. So just asking your opinion based on what you understand and know.

Thanks.
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      06-11-2012, 06:59 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
WSIR might be sunday morning drive compared to the other tracks, but tell that to the half-dozen people who went off track on Saturday including a car right in front of me!
Actually WSIR is one of the MOST dangerous tracks out west. Turn 9 is absolutely BRUTAL in that, at speed, 1/2' off of the apex means you're going to wad your car up in a ditch. Turn 9 at WSIR is almost as dangerous as Turn 9 at Laguna Seca. Maybe a small step behind turn 10 at Sears. I've "seen" more cars wrecked at Turn 9 at WSIR than just about every where else.

The problem with WSIR, is it's relative "ease" makes for a deceptively dangerous place to drive. It lulls you to "sleep" in a way, and the second you lose concentration it spits you back out at a numbers of turns: Turn 1, Turn 3, Turn 6, Turn 9 are all more difficult than it appears, especially at speed.

But compared to all the other local tracks, WSIR does not demand the same type of attention to detail and concentration. THAT, is what makes it dangerous. That and Turn 9. But as far as equipment is concerned, it's easy on brakes, easy on engine, heavy on tires.

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Originally Posted by N54_Fan View Post
I am curious as to your thoughts about Homestead in Miami, FL in mid July. Headed there with Chin Motorsports soon. I want to get as much out of the day as possible so my current plan is to have DTC off while trying to keep my shifts in Manual mode at around 5500-5700 rpm for upshift. I realize you will probably say dont take an AT to the track but the fact remains that I have been inspired to take up this new found hobby and wish to make the best of it with the car I have. In the near future I may buy a MT but for now I want to have fun with what I have. Would you say Homestead is a good test for limp mode in mid July? Would you recommend getting meth kit prior to event? Do you subscribe to the same line of reasoning that Shiv says the Meth kit will lower temps by 30 deg F?

I am not asking you to bash or praise anything at all. I have read many of your posts and they seem to the point and appear to be based on facts and experience. So just asking your opinion based on what you understand and know.

Thanks.
I can not comment on tracks I've never seen. What I can tell you is, in my experience in various passenger seats of 335i that has had "issues" on track, the most likely turns to cause problems on the 335i are slow turns leading onto long straights. For example, the aforementioned turn 9 at Auto Club Speedway. 2nd gear turn. 35 ish miles per hour with wide open throttle until the end of the back straight, potentially 120-125mph before a heavy braking zone followed by 10-15 seconds of alternating heavy throttle and slow speed corners. If Homestead has this combination of turns, watch out. The slow speed stuff prevents air from rushing past the exchangers (oil coolers and radiator) to siphon off built up heat. And the built up heat results in limp mode.

So, for example. Buttonwillow Raceway, turn 2 is a slow, 2nd gear turn followed by a straight with lots of acceleration, then 3 moderately slow speed turns without a lot of opportunity to cool down with high speed airflow. Coupled with the typical 100-120 summer heat, limp mode, even in the lowly 328i, is not uncommon. Heck my MZ4 Coupe saw 270 oil temp here once, which is freakin' insane. Laguna Seca. Long, up hill straight coming out of 6 followed by very slow speed turns (cork screw) means very little opportunity for cooling. Although the moderate temps in Monterey (70 Farenheit) means you stay out of limp longer. It's those combinations (low speed turn followed by long straight, followed by combinations of slow stuff) that will get you.

HAVING SAID THAT. I would drive HARD and find out where the limp limits are. Then dial back accordingly. If it were me, I wouldn't go in trying to preserve and prevent. I'd go find the limit then back off. Another thing I would do, especially if it's an automatic, is bring a bottle of water and a fine sprayer, and spray the radiator in-between runs. The evaporating water will assist the radiator in exchanging heat and prevent early onset of heat built-up in the water that causes limp, because the AT shares heat exchangers for the transmission with the radiator. I learned this trick from observing Nissan's NISMO department, who brought about a dozen cars for journalists to test out (I was lucky enough to be invited despite my poor writing skills) in the hot California desert heat (Streets of Willow), and they had a guy with a "mister" they called "Mr. Mister" that goes around and sprays the radiator religiously between runs.

IMO, it's managing the heat build-up between runs that's key here, not necessarily the actual heat on track. Having a good time with the 335i (auto or manual) is possible, it just takes a lot more work than usual.
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      06-11-2012, 07:44 PM   #10
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IMO, it's managing the heat build-up between runs that's key here, not necessarily the actual heat on track. Having a good time with the 335i (auto or manual) is possible, it just takes a lot more work than usual.
It is absolutely is a huge part of the issue and hard to control. But if you drive fast laps at Sears, Laguna and Thunderhill even managing the heat build up won't eliminate the limp issue. Find the "how to" on is playing coolant temps in the 335 and you'll see what Hack is talking about. As soon as you stop the car the heat climbs rapidly. Some people cool the car down by driving at at least 40 MPH for 20 minutes after each session as one way to help it. Add the cold water sprayer (ER pointed their meth sprayer at the radiator to keep their 135 cool during sessions) and you'll be doing better than most. Like Hack said, it's just more work than a lot of other cars.

If you get fast you will probably need to also have all the reliability mods: oil coolers, distilled water, intercooler, Procede tune (helps w/intake temps) and meth. ATs, as many have said, are the most difficult.

I bought an E36 M3 instead ). I still have to modify things on that. No car is immune to issues at the track. Some are just better than others.
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      06-11-2012, 08:03 PM   #11
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Actually WSIR is one of the MOST dangerous tracks out west. Turn 9 is absolutely BRUTAL in that, at speed, 1/2' off of the apex means you're going to wad your car up in a ditch. Turn 9 at WSIR is almost as dangerous as Turn 9 at Laguna Seca. Maybe a small step behind turn 10 at Sears. I've "seen" more cars wrecked at Turn 9 at WSIR than just about every where else.

The problem with WSIR, is it's relative "ease" makes for a deceptively dangerous place to drive. It lulls you to "sleep" in a way, and the second you lose concentration it spits you back out at a numbers of turns: Turn 1, Turn 3, Turn 6, Turn 9 are all more difficult than it appears, especially at speed.

But compared to all the other local tracks, WSIR does not demand the same type of attention to detail and concentration. THAT, is what makes it dangerous. That and Turn 9. But as far as equipment is concerned, it's easy on brakes, easy on engine, heavy on tires.



I can not comment on tracks I've never seen. What I can tell you is, in my experience in various passenger seats of 335i that has had "issues" on track, the most likely turns to cause problems on the 335i are slow turns leading onto long straights. .... And the built up heat results in limp mode.

... It's those combinations (low speed turn followed by long straight, followed by combinations of slow stuff) that will get you.

HAVING SAID THAT. I would drive HARD and find out where the limp limits are. Then dial back accordingly. If it were me, I wouldn't go in trying to preserve and prevent. I'd go find the limit then back off. Another thing I would do, especially if it's an automatic, is bring a bottle of water and a fine sprayer, and spray the radiator in-between runs. The evaporating water will assist the radiator in exchanging heat and prevent early onset of heat built-up in the water that causes limp, because the AT shares heat exchangers for the transmission with the radiator. I learned this trick from observing Nissan's NISMO department, who brought about a dozen cars for journalists to test out (I was lucky enough to be invited despite my poor writing skills) in the hot California desert heat (Streets of Willow), and they had a guy with a "mister" they called "Mr. Mister" that goes around and sprays the radiator religiously between runs.

IMO, it's managing the heat build-up between runs that's key here, not necessarily the actual heat on track. Having a good time with the 335i (auto or manual) is possible, it just takes a lot more work than usual.
Thanks for the input. The slow speed turn with long accel and 3-4 turns sounds very much like Sebring's 3.1 mile course with a hairpin followed by long sweeping left at WOT before a R, L, R, L, R turn. Now I know what to look out for in August when I go there again (it will be my first time in THIS car at Sebring).

As for misting,...I have heard and thought about this as well but I am just getting started with HPDE so I was not sure if this would be realistic to expect to be able to do between runs. Dont we get more "class room like instruction" and time away from our cars so "misting" may not be possible? Sorry for the ignorance as I am just getting started with the HPDE thing. If it is possible I will surely do that.

BTW what is your opinion about meth and temps? You never answered... Also I have seen people describing using Nitrous as a FMIC spray to cool the IAT further but meth would accomplish the same or better result. However, why have we not come up with a similar solution for the RADIATOR. Nitroous spray or even water on the Radiator? Does that sound stupid? I realize its a band aid of sorts but may be a relatively easy thing to do. I suppose the tracks may frown uppon a setup like that for fear of water all over the track but I am not sure. I read a GTR forum where one vendor has a misting setup to cool the GTR brakes instead of just air cooling. So why not adopt this similar concept but for our radiators?

here are the links to that brake cooling setup for the GTR.

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index....sults-updated/

http://www.willallracing.com.au/performance.htm#wr35ms

(see the "Water mist cooling system" and "Brake Cooling system" in that last link)
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      06-11-2012, 08:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
I did 3 separate sessions at Big Willow on Saturday. It was cooler than normal but still reached the low-mid 80's. Willow is a fast track with lots of sustained WOT acceleration.

I have read the "limp party" thread and figured that a limp would be inevitable. I was running the Procede 11-25 aggressive maps with a custom boost profile to target 18psi, although regularly hits 19+psi on logs. Dyno'd SAE 412/446. I was expecting to limp, and then come in, cool down and reduce boost to ~ 13psi.

Well, didn't happen. Oil temps were rock solid @ 255. I am running water/meth cooling (51/49 water/meth ratio). Perhaps the meth kept oil temps down.
1. for the 1,000th time, heat rarely makes the car go into limp mode. 9 times out of 10, it's some other mechanical issue causing it. You have to read your codes. Temp induced limps will show the symbol on the dash, and it is very difficult to do.

2. reading posts like this, makes me puzzled. We all have different skill levels, and skill level is the single most important thing influencing engine temperature. A novice can drive around all day long and not get limp mode. whereas, an advanced driver, can bring a car to extreme temp levels, in one hard lap.
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      06-11-2012, 08:16 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
Find the "how to" on is playing coolant temps in the 335 and you'll see what Hack is talking about. As soon as you stop the car the heat climbs rapidly.
Yes, I was the first person to post this on here. Although, I copied the directions from an old post the HACK made on another forum. In it he wasn't sure it would work on a 335I.

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Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
I bought an E36 M3 instead ). I still have to modify things on that. No car is immune to issues at the track. Some are just better than others.
True. If it's an 80+ degree day, everyone is screwed.
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      06-11-2012, 08:21 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by N54_Fan View Post


I have read the entire Track limp mode party thread and have taken just about all the advice on that thread. I have a 2007 335i AT with Procede rev 2.5, and ER FMIC, ER Dual Comp OC, AR catless DP, 30/70 coolant/H2O + 2 WW, and removed foglights. I am curious as to your thoughts about Homestead in Miami, FL in mid July. Headed there with Chin Motorsports soon. I want to get as much out of the day as possible so my current plan is to have DTC off while trying to keep my shifts in Manual mode at around 5500-5700 rpm for upshift. I realize you will probably say dont take an AT to the track but the fact remains that I have been inspired to take up this new found hobby and wish to make the best of it with the car I have. In the near future I may buy a MT but for now I want to have fun with what I have. Would you say Homestead is a good test for limp mode in mid July? Would you recommend getting meth kit prior to event? Do you subscribe to the same line of reasoning that Shiv says the Meth kit will lower temps by 30 deg F?

Thanks.
If you are on or near 50K miles, then replace both your intake and exhaust vanos solenoids, or you will limp repeatedly, due to them.

MT's are not that much cooler than the AT at the track.
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      06-11-2012, 08:26 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Another thing I would do, especially if it's an automatic, is bring a bottle of water and a fine sprayer, and spray the radiator in-between runs. The evaporating water will assist the radiator in exchanging heat and prevent early onset of heat built-up in the water that causes limp, because the AT shares heat exchangers for the transmission with the radiator. I learned this trick from observing Nissan's NISMO department, who brought about a dozen cars for journalists to test out (I was lucky enough to be invited despite my poor writing skills) in the hot California desert heat (Streets of Willow), and they had a guy with a "mister" they called "Mr. Mister" that goes around and sprays the radiator religiously between runs.
I've observed this, when I was my car during the summer, after driving it, and spray water, to the radiator, to clean it. My oil temps go from a 210 idle, to like 140. I'm skeptical about doing this though, as I don't like the idea of rapidly cooling hot metal.
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      06-11-2012, 08:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerfish2012 View Post
1. for the 1,000th time, heat rarely makes the car go into limp mode. 9 times out of 10, it's some other mechanical issue causing it. You have to read your codes. Temp induced limps will show the symbol on the dash, and it is very difficult to do.

2. reading posts like this, makes me puzzled. We all have different skill levels, and skill level is the single most important thing influencing engine temperature. A novice can drive around all day long and not get limp mode. whereas, an advanced driver, can bring a car to extreme temp levels, in one hard lap.
I can appreciate your POV but I think most on here would disagree with you on this. Sure Vanos Solenoid, HPFP, LPFP, Coils, injector, spark plugs, etc could all be causing some limp modes. I think most here would say that this extreme stress of tracking HARD makes these limitations show up if hey are there. However, there have been a large number of people with good plugs, injectors, etc,...that have found limp modes secondary to high oil and coolant temps with AT worse than MT because of the radiator working as a Tranny cooler and having less ability to cool the engine. Similarly the lack of cool air to the radiator that is often blocked by the bumper or a larger FMIC and poor efficiency of the radiator all add to compound the problem with AT.

I would love to agree with you on this and maybe after 7-14 in Homestead after tracking my car as hard as I can I will see what (if any) codes I throw. If none are temp related then I can check that off my list and start down the next path of making my car more reliable by changing/upgrading what is failing.


I am serioously thinking about changing the Vanos as you say and even alll 6 coils just to take those out of the equation as they are rather inexpensive to do. (I had 4 of 6 injectors changed already last spring and recent diagnostic by my shop tells me they are all fine. The Spark plugs are new and my HPFP was changed about 1 year ago under warranty.

Last edited by N54_Fan; 06-11-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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      06-11-2012, 08:36 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by N54_Fan View Post
I can appreciate your POV but I think most on here would disagree with you on this. Sure Vanos Solenoid, HPFP, LPFP, Coils, injector, spark plugs, etc could all be causing some limp modes. I think most here would say that this extreme stress of tracking HARD makes these limitations show up if hey are there. However, there have been a large number of people with good plugs, injectors, etc,...that have found limp modes secondary to high oil and coolant temps with AT worse than MT because of the radiator working as a Tranny cooler and having less ability to cool the engine. Similarly the lack of cool air to the radiator that is often blocked by the bumper or a larger FMIC and poor efficiency of the radiator all add to compound the problem with AT.

I would love to agree with you on this and maybe after 7-14 in Homestead after tracking my car as hard as I can I will see what (if any) codes I throw. If none are temp related then I can check that off my list and start down the next path of making my car more reliable by changing/upgrading what is failing.
This is why I just don't answer to noob posts. You read the whole limp mode thread? I was one of the guys who started it. +, I've tracked my 6AT for years, and was one of the first guys on here doing it with peterM1. I don't have any temp or limp mode issues on the track, because of the mods in my sig. You on the other hand, will have to suffer through your learning experiences, MT, or AT.
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      06-11-2012, 08:44 PM   #18
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This is why I just don't answer to noob posts. You read the whole limp mode thread? I was one of the guys who started it. +, I've tracked my 6AT for years, and was one of the first guys on here doing it with peterM1. I don't have any temp or limp mode issues on the track, because of the mods in my sig. You on the other hand, will have to suffer through your learning experiences, MT, or AT.
Thats a rather DICK thing to say. I guess you forget how things were when you were new to this huh? I realize you contributed to the thread and YES I read the ENTIRE thing. Is that such a bad thing to try and gain any morsel of data or information to help learn and lessen the learning curve. As far as no temp or limp issues because of your "mod in your sig",...well outside of the thermostat (which I have been looking into) I have nearly all the same or equivalent cooling mods as you. So I hope to also not have any issues. However I am not naive enough to believe that I will have no problems. If you fail to prepare then prepare to fail. I come here to learn and try to improve my car and skill and knowledge. So no need to be an arrogant prick.
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      06-11-2012, 08:47 PM   #19
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Thats a rather DICK thing to say. I guess you forget how things were when you were new to this huh? I realize you contributed to the thread and YES I read the ENTIRE thing. Is that such a bad thing to try and gain any morsel of data or information to help learn and lessen the learning curve. As far as no temp or limp issues because of your "mod in your sig",...well outside of the thermostat (which I have been looking into) I have nearly all the same or equivalent cooling mods as you. So I hope to also not have any issues. However I am not naive enough to believe that I will have no problems. If you fail to prepare then prepare to fail. I come here to learn and try to improve my car and skill and knowledge. So no need to be an arrogant prick.
Just a word of anti-troll advice: Watch your tone on here. You will soon get ban-erased. The forum's culture has radically changed the past few years, and they do not tolerate this type of language on here. Also, I will never again respond to your posts. Please stay out of mine.

good riddance.
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      06-11-2012, 08:52 PM   #20
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I wonder if the N55 has the same problems... I've never been at a track experience but I plan to go in late August to the lightning circuit in NJ. Hopefully the procede, meth, dp and ets 5" direct fit will keep it all in check
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      06-11-2012, 08:55 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Killerfish2012 View Post
Just a word of anti-troll advice: Watch your tone on here. You will soon get ban-erased. The forum's culture has radically changed the past few years, and they do not tolerate this type of language on here. Also, I will never again respond to your posts. Please stay out of mine.

good riddance.
LOL,...by the looks of it I have been on here about 4 years longer than you. I think I know what is tolerated. Calling you out on a arrogant remark is not a trolling maneuver. Also, by the looks of it you are parting out and selling your car so you likely will not be back.... I'm all shook up and teary eyed about it too... You contributed so much here.

My discussion was intially with The HACK and not you. Good riddance.
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      06-11-2012, 11:22 PM   #22
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This has become a very entertaining thread for sure!
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